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Re: Vote -5 to +5


2007-10-03 10:53:02 PM
off-topic6
Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote:
Quote
Peter Morris wrote:
>>The maximum is currently set to 10.
>
>Yes, for multiple reports. I am proposing a -5 (no don't do it) to +5
>(please do this) vote with no limits on how many reports you can vote
>for.
>

Not what Votes are for. All bugs should be addressed if possible. You
are putting a much higher priority on votes than there really is. Votes
are not one of the first things looked at, it is one of the final tie
breakers. A lot of thought when into the way votes work today and we
actually copied a very successful model in Java's BugParade.

And in the BugParade, you only get 5 votes, so you have to be very
particular about which bugs you vote for.
--
Regards,
Lori Olson [TeamB]
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Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Lori M Olson [TeamB] wrote:
Quote
I can see how votes are important in either case, but should we be
prompting people who are voting for un-opened reports to rate them as well?
IMHO, the solution is we should be prompting sysops to open reports with
high vote counts. I know Jeff didn't mean it this way, but his response
comes across to me somewhat like, "I saw that report and noticed that it
had all those votes, but since that isn't what votes are supposed to be
used for, I decided to ignore the report out of spite until somebody
rated it."
Ratings should be *one* reason that a report gets opened but not the
only one. Sysops should be looking at any report that's attracting lots
of attention from users, and whether or not votes are intended to be
used that way, they're clearly an indication of attention from users.
For the average user of QC, if they come across a report that looks
valid and addresses an issue that's important to them, they want to vote
on it. They don't want to rate it, bookmark it, and check back once a
week for 2 years until it gets opened before they vote.
--
Gillmer J. Derge [TeamB]
 

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Lori M Olson [TeamB] wrote:
Quote
I can see how votes are important in either case, but should we be
prompting people who are voting for un-opened reports to rate them as well?
If someone visits your web page to give you feedback on your product,
the message you want to send them is, "Thank you so much for your
valuable feedback," not, "Sorry, that isn't the kind of feedback we're
looking for at this time, please come back later and try again."
--
Gillmer J. Derge [TeamB]
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Gillmer J. Derge [TeamB] wrote:
Quote
Lori M Olson [TeamB] wrote:
>I can see how votes are important in either case, but should we be
>prompting people who are voting for un-opened reports to rate them as
>well?

If someone visits your web page to give you feedback on your product,
the message you want to send them is, "Thank you so much for your
valuable feedback," not, "Sorry, that isn't the kind of feedback we're
looking for at this time, please come back later and try again."

That's actually twisting what I said. I didn't say PREVENT them from
voting, I just said we need to prompt them to do something more useful
as well....
Votes are valuable commodities, because you only get... 10? You can
rate as many reports as you want.
People should be made aware that reports with no-or-low ratings are
unlikely to be opened, no matter how many people vote for them.
I've been on the other end of bug reports from developers, and I know
how it works, and I still find that other developers ignore this simple
concept. If a bug is important to you, you need to put some work into
reporting it or commenting on it, or in some way making it easy for the
developer at the other end to reproduce the problem. If there is not a
good way to reproduce the problem, then that report will go to the
bottom of the barrel when it comes time for bug-fixing, because there
are lots of other reports that ARE easy to reproduce. If you can't
reproduce it, then 99% of the time, you can't fix it. And
unfortunately, when it comes time to bug fixing, managers are all about
"numbers of bugs fixed".
--
Regards,
Lori Olson [TeamB]
------------
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newsgroups and the FAQ-O-Matic before posting your next
question.
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Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Gillmer J. Derge [TeamB] wrote:
Quote
If someone visits your web page to give you feedback on your product,
the message you want to send them is, "Thank you so much for your
valuable feedback," not, "Sorry, that isn't the kind of feedback
we're looking for at this time, please come back later and try again."
What ratings are supposed to be and what they are in fact are two
completely different things.
We are fighting a battle up the side of a cliff, in my view, trying to
make "Rating" mean anything other than what the community uses it for.
Voting is pretty broken as well. There simply aren't enough votes to
go around for the real feelings of the community to be seen. The votes
to reports ratio is /very/ unfavorable. I think that users ought to
have, say, 100 votes, and a five vote max on any report. Maybe 500
votes, with the same max.
I have no idea why we try so desparately to /limit/ the amount of
feedback that our customers give us.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
 

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Lori M Olson [TeamB] wrote:
Quote
And in the BugParade, you only get 5 votes, so you have to be very
particular about which bugs you vote for.
.... but in BugParade, the Votes-to-reports ratio is much more
favorable.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
 

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Nick Hodges (CodeGear) wrote:
Quote
The votes
to reports ratio is very unfavorable. I think that users ought to
have, say, 100 votes, and a five vote max on any report. Maybe 500
votes, with the same max.
I think there should be no limit, but the "weight" of your vote should
be inversely proportional to the # of votes you've cast. So if you vote
once for one thing, that carries a lot of weight. If you vote once for
every report in QC, each individual vote carries almost no weight at
all.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] ?Vertex Systems Corp. ?Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Please read and follow Borland's rules for the user of their
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Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Quote
Except votes don't determine getting things opened. Ratings do. Votes
are for after something is opened.
They should at influence things. If something has 500 votes and has not
been looked at then some people aren't doing very well.
 

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Quote
Votes are valuable commodities, because you only get... 10? You can rate
as many reports as you want.
But ratings only indicate how well the report is written. You cannot
indicate how much you do/don't want the report implemented.
Quote
People should be made aware that reports with no-or-low ratings are
unlikely to be opened, no matter how many people vote for them.
It's really quite a silly system in my opinion. You have to rate it to open
it, and vote on it to get it done. If a report is not at all clear then I
am not going to vote for it, if it explains my problem clearly then I will
identify with it and vote for it. The double-system is confusing and in my
opinion pointless. I think many people will vote for reports without rating
them, and not bother rating anything they don't want to vote for.
Pete
 

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Quote
What ratings are supposed to be and what they are in fact are two
completely different things.
I agree. I also think they are unnecessary.
Quote
We are fighting a battle up the side of a cliff, in my view, trying to
make "Rating" mean anything other than what the community uses it for.
I hate it when the Oxford dictionary starts including words like "yummy
mummy" but the fact is that if the majority perceive something a certain way
it becomes that no matter what you inteded it to be.
Quote
I think that users ought to
have, say, 100 votes, and a five vote max on any report. Maybe 500
votes, with the same max.
I see no point in having a limit. If I vote + 5 for every report because I
am one of those people who believe "you should fix everything" then
effectively I have voted on nothing. If I give a 2 second head-start to a
horse it might win, if I give a 2 second head-start to every horse in the
race I am merely starting the race early :-)
Quote
I have no idea why we try so desparately to /limit/ the amount of
feedback that our customers give us.
That's my opinion exactly! I want to (if I choose) be able to vote every
report that I have an opinion on from Strongly Disagree to Strongly Agree.
Pete
 

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Craig Stuntz [TeamB] wrote:
Quote
I think there should be no limit, but the "weight" of your vote
should be inversely proportional to the # of votes you've cast. So if
you vote once for one thing, that carries a lot of weight. If you
vote once for every report in QC, each individual vote carries almost
no weight at all.
That would be a good plan as well.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
 

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Craig Stuntz [TeamB] wrote:
Quote
I think there should be no limit, but the "weight" of your vote
should be inversely proportional to the # of votes you've cast. So if
you vote once for one thing, that carries a lot of weight. If you
vote once for every report in QC, each individual vote carries almost
no weight at all.
... and I should add that my main point is that the current system
isn't giving us on the product team the feedback we'd like to have from
customers.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
 

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

"Peter Morris" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote
Quote
I think QC would be much better if you could vote on as
many reports as you like,
That part of your suggestion has been discussed (in these
forums) at considerable length, years ago and, if I recall
correctly, has resulted in no change.
If the developers only followed the information in the vote
totals, I think that the end result would start to look ugly
fast.
Quote
and vote anywhere from
-5 (No!!! Don't do this) to +5 (I *really* want this)
I do not recall seeing the allowing of negative votes before.
I presume that you have already recorded your negative
comments to the report.
--JohnH
 

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Peter Morris wrote:
Quote
I hate it when the Oxford dictionary starts including words like
"yummy mummy" but the fact is that if the majority perceive something
a certain way it becomes that no matter what you inteded it to be.
Or, as the inestimable Guy Kawasaki points out -- "Let a thousand
flowers bloom".
Quote
I want to (if I choose) be able to vote every report that I have an
opinion on from Strongly Disagree to Strongly Agree.
I wouldn't object to that plan.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
 

Re:Re: Vote -5 to +5

Nick Hodges (CodeGear) schrieb:
Quote
Lori M Olson [TeamB] wrote:

>And in the BugParade, you only get 5 votes, so you have to be very
>particular about which bugs you vote for.

.... but in BugParade, the Votes-to-reports ratio is much more
favorable.

What please is BugParade?
And: QC doesn't only contain bugreports, so the -5 thing might make
sense for feature requests.
Greetings
Markus