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Re: When will update2 be released?


2005-02-24 01:47:53 AM
off-topic0
Lets agree there's a difference between "release date" and "release".
And since we're not talking about a 'release date' I still find it quite odd
why borland doesnt let
people know they're at least working (hard even) on a second update. This
would take little to no effort.
You might be thinking "of course we're working on an update! (*&%)(&" but I
bought delphi 7 quite some time ago which I assumed would get its Update 2
eventually.. but it's been almost 2 years now..
So dont get me wrong, I do want to work with Delphi, but I dont understand
the "code red classification" regarding commercial updates... (not the
date).
You have a website, you have a webpage inside your new IDE, you have my mail
address, you've got it all.
But where do I need to dig for some simple answer? In the newsgroups of all
places..
Ok, i'm gonna leave it with this, this is taking me more time than the IDE
crashes themselve.
Thanks for the replies John and sorry for the negative attitude, but since I
bought delphi 7 things went downhill fast.
Bas
"John Kaster (Borland)" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
BaSS wrote:

>Highly unofficial?

Yes.

>You are working on an update for a commercial product, but its
>unofficial??

The time of the release is unofficial. Until such time as we announce a
firm release date for the patch, yes, it is a highly unofficial release.

--
John Kaster blogs.borland.com/johnk
Features and bugs: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com
If it's not here, it's not happening: ec.borland.com
 
 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

BaSS wrote:
Quote
Lets agree there's a difference between "release date" and "release".
There is.
Quote
And since we're not talking about a 'release date' I still find it
quite odd why borland doesnt let people know they're at least
working (hard even) on a second update.
Because our management believes this delays sales of the product, and
they have data to back up that belief.
Quote
Thanks for the replies John and sorry for the negative attitude, but
since I bought delphi 7 things went downhill fast.
You're welcome for the replies. Hopefully we can turn your experience
around shortly.
--
John Kaster blogs.borland.com/johnk
Features and bugs: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com
If it's not here, it's not happening: ec.borland.com
 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

I cant keep myself from replying once more :)
First of all, I admire your patience John, I really do.
Quote
Because our management believes this delays sales of the product, and
they have data to back up that belief.
But John, we're talking about people who ALREADY bought the product and
wonder *if* "things" will get better.
My believe is, when the going gets tough (major bugs appear) and you leave
Delphi Developers in the dark, this philosophy can only backfire.
Take myself for instance, I promised myself NOT to get another delphi
version before delphi 7 had most of its issues fixed. But because of some
"new" compiler features I decided to buy D2005 anyway and got really
disappointed..
Now, if this would happen again (no updates/communication) this would surely
be the last time anyone would get me by the nose. Mind you, most of the
compiler features (like inlining) have been available in any other full
blown compiler and seeing MS trying to immitate "the borland technology"
(even stole some of your people to do so) the decision to stick with Borland
(which is moving towards MS anyway regarding its identity) gets harder and
harder.
As products are growing towards each other, ALL YOU HAVE are your public
relations.
I just checked my mail and noticed an "Invitation to the Borland Risk
Management for Software Delivery Seminar", I can almost guarantee you
(borland) that any registered Delphi 2005 user would appreciate a simple
email stating "Blah blah thank you blah - we know there are still some
issues but please know, we are working on it".
Thats it!, no drop of sales (since we already bought it), instead an
increase of sales since I wont be posting my frustration all over the place
(where future customers of course only see the frustrated part) AND the
guarantee i'll be buying a next version of Delphi because (unlike Delphi 7)
you have proven yourselves to be a reliable partner once more...
Again.. sorry for rambling on and on.. but in my mind it's all so simple..
and you haven't convinced me otherwise.
Bas
(this newsgroup-thing is {*word*60}ive)
"John Kaster (Borland)" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
BaSS wrote:

>Lets agree there's a difference between "release date" and "release".

There is.

>And since we're not talking about a 'release date' I still find it
>quite odd why borland doesnt let people know they're at least
>working (hard even) on a second update.

Because our management believes this delays sales of the product, and
they have data to back up that belief.

>Thanks for the replies John and sorry for the negative attitude, but
>since I bought delphi 7 things went downhill fast.

You're welcome for the replies. Hopefully we can turn your experience
around shortly.


--
John Kaster blogs.borland.com/johnk
Features and bugs: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com
If it's not here, it's not happening: ec.borland.com
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

John Kaster (Borland) wrote:
Quote
Because our management believes this delays sales of the product, and
they have data to back up that belief.
OK. And how does it affect customer satisfaction among those who buy the
product before the release of the patch? And which of those parameters
is most important in the long run?
Kjell
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Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

Kjell Rilbe wrote:
Quote
OK. And how does it affect customer satisfaction among those who buy
the product before the release of the patch? And which of those
parameters is most important in the long run?
It seems I'm not the only one who asks these questions.
--
John Kaster blogs.borland.com/johnk
Features and bugs: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com
If it's not here, it's not happening: ec.borland.com
 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

BaSS wrote:
Quote
Again.. sorry for rambling on and on.. but in my mind it's all so
simple.. and you haven't convinced me otherwise.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm explaining why
things are being done the way they are. You don't have to accept the
reason or like it. I never said I agreed with the reasoning.
--
John Kaster blogs.borland.com/johnk
Features and bugs: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com
If it's not here, it's not happening: ec.borland.com
 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

My point exactly (though I spend 40 more lines trying to say the same
argh...).
Quote
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm explaining why
things are being done the way they are. You don't have to accept the
reason or like it. I never said I agreed with the reasoning.
Hah, ok John, we'll see what the future brings us ;)
I wish all of you the best and hope we'll still be using/seeing a lot of
borland products in the future to come.
Bas
"Kjell Rilbe" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
John Kaster (Borland) wrote:

>Because our management believes this delays sales of the product, and
>they have data to back up that belief.

OK. And how does it affect customer satisfaction among those who buy the
product before the release of the patch? And which of those parameters is
most important in the long run?

Kjell
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kjell Rilbe
Home: +46 8 7610734
Cell: +46 733 442464
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If there's a price for bein' me, that's one I'll have to pay"
Aaron Tippin
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

John Kaster (Borland) wrote:
Quote
Kjell Rilbe wrote:
>OK. And how does it affect customer satisfaction among those who buy
>the product before the release of the patch? And which of those
>parameters is most important in the long run?

It seems I'm not the only one who asks these questions.

John, is it within our capability to bring up to Borland that this is a
concern that comes up on the forums?
Perhaps I should write a couple of QC reports:
1. Don't release new versions with quality that will, by a lot of
people, be perceived as alfa or beta.
2. Release more public info re. what Borland is working on, e.g. "We're
working on path 2 for Delphi 2005 and it will primarily address
stability problems and other serious bugs. Minor problems will be
addressed in a third patch. We're also working on an update to Bold
which will be released to owners of D7 Architect, D8 Architect or D2005
Architect.". No release dates required, but most welcome.
Do you think these reports would receive any votes? :-)
Kjell
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kjell Rilbe
Home: +46 8 7610734
Cell: +46 733 442464
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If there's a price for bein' me, that's one I'll have to pay"
Aaron Tippin
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

Just my $0.02!
I am a Borland lover since Turbo Pascal 3, and have almost every TP and
Delphi release.
My D7 Pro works very very fine. I have no complaint with it.
But Delphi 2005 Pro, its another story.
I see MS providing his VS .net 2005 beta for a long time now (never saw
Borland doing the same with D2005).
I am sad and really thinking about my future development tool, because I
see that Borland is losing its identity and trying to be more MS like.
Borland tools used to be the best. I am sorry to admit they aren't any more.
Delphi 2005 (even with update 1) its a beta product, not a release one.
I even wonder if you have any big software development company using
this, or if you base customers are individual programmer/small
companies. Because I guess that if a big software company bought
licenses of Delphi 2005 as it is now, you probably will be facing a big
sue in the courts with Borland having to pay for damages.
One other thing I have to notice about Borland is they relation with his
customers. I don't like M$ polities and I would be an happier programmer
if I have the same tools for Linux and if Borland didn't stop Kylix.
But I have top admit that MS treats developers very very well.
I have MSDN Universal for 320 euros and anything I need to develop for
Windows. Off course they need this so Windows can live longer.
But Borland could at least treat its customers with more respect by not
selling useless products and acting as they are ok to sell.
I wonder who pays me the 2 days I spent searching a way to put D2005
stable enough to work with.
Good old days when Borland was the lead to follow, and every one had
envy of its tools. Now I only see it behind MS and following it all over
the place. Kylix could have been a major turn around.
Regards,
Luis Madaleno
John Kaster (Borland) wrote:
Quote
BaSS wrote:


>Lets agree there's a difference between "release date" and "release".


There is.


>And since we're not talking about a 'release date' I still find it
>quite odd why borland doesnt let people know they're at least
>working (hard even) on a second update.


Because our management believes this delays sales of the product, and
they have data to back up that belief.


>Thanks for the replies John and sorry for the negative attitude, but
>since I bought delphi 7 things went downhill fast.


You're welcome for the replies. Hopefully we can turn your experience
around shortly.


 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

Borland is still in lead. Only in Visual Studio 2005 do Microsoft have
anything that comes close to Borlands Delphi. And that product is in "beta"
stage. But actually it should be called alfa stage, because it crashed all
over x50 of what D2005 does.
But I do agree that D2005 is actually in beta stage, and they should have
waited longer before releasing it. Maybe with a betastage like the one
Microsoft has with VS2005.
At the current point, D2005 is more stable than VS2005 and has almost all
the same capabilities. And they have a good amount of more capabilities when
it comes to win32 development. In VS2005, all the major improvements are
missing in C++. Only C# and VB has these. And as I stated, VS2005 is an alfa
product.
When VS2005 reaches release candidate in summertime, Borland has plans to
deliver a .NET 2.0 capable Delphi version. And then they would have more
capabilities than VS2005. So I would say, Borland is still in the lead and I
don't understand why anyone use Microsoft products for development. They
never cared for backward compatibility and easy migration (and that is some
very important issues).
One important thing is that Borland do not release the next version before
it's stable enough... They have done bad things, but still they are better
than Microsoft.
And that is my $0.02
-Atle
 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

I hope that all you said is or become true.
I still prefer Borland to M$. All my current and future projects
are/will be designed for Delphi development.
I only use (will) VS because I need .Net CF support that Borland doesn't
have.
But the main propose of my statement is Borland's attitude with his
loyal customers and with new products.
It doesn't hurt to have beta programs. And loyal users could do the hard
job for Borland which is testing.
One thing Borland should have is subscriptions like M$ does and like
some third party vendors also have.
Users would pay a fee every year and have access to all Borland's
development tools and would be able to participate in beta programs
where all new products would be tested exhaustively, until they were
ready to sell. And they didn't even had to pay for this job.
What I also consider poor is having so many complaints in newsgroups,
about product quality, etc... And this is something Borland could avoid.
Regards,
Luis Madaleno
Atle Smelvær wrote:
Quote
Borland is still in lead. Only in Visual Studio 2005 do Microsoft have
anything that comes close to Borlands Delphi. And that product is in "beta"
stage. But actually it should be called alfa stage, because it crashed all
over x50 of what D2005 does.

But I do agree that D2005 is actually in beta stage, and they should have
waited longer before releasing it. Maybe with a betastage like the one
Microsoft has with VS2005.

At the current point, D2005 is more stable than VS2005 and has almost all
the same capabilities. And they have a good amount of more capabilities when
it comes to win32 development. In VS2005, all the major improvements are
missing in C++. Only C# and VB has these. And as I stated, VS2005 is an alfa
product.

When VS2005 reaches release candidate in summertime, Borland has plans to
deliver a .NET 2.0 capable Delphi version. And then they would have more
capabilities than VS2005. So I would say, Borland is still in the lead and I
don't understand why anyone use Microsoft products for development. They
never cared for backward compatibility and easy migration (and that is some
very important issues).

One important thing is that Borland do not release the next version before
it's stable enough... They have done bad things, but still they are better
than Microsoft.

And that is my $0.02

-Atle


 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

"One important thing is that Borland do not release the next version before
it's stable enough"
I used "do" instead of "must". Here is my correct sentence:
"One important thing is that Borland must not release the next version
before it's stable enough"
-Atle
 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

Kjell Rilbe wrote:
Quote
Do you think these reports would receive any votes? :-)
You could post them and solicit votes ;)
--
John Kaster blogs.borland.com/johnk
Features and bugs: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com
If it's not here, it's not happening: ec.borland.com
 

Re:Re: When will update2 be released?

John Kaster (Borland) wrote:
Quote
Kjell Rilbe wrote:
>Do you think these reports would receive any votes? :-)

You could post them and solicit votes ;)
I might just do that. Just got to get this d)??project finished...
Some room to breathe...
Kjell
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kjell Rilbe
Home: +46 8 7610734
Cell: +46 733 442464
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If there's a price for bein' me, that's one I'll have to pay"
Aaron Tippin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------