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This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com

http://www.msnbc.com/news/904728.asp?0dm=C17KT

Programmers will soon need to unionize , like teachers, lawyers police etc.

One day programmers will be sued for faulty code  and no one will be there
to protect them legally. The company you work for will blame you and drop
you like a hot potato.(the lawyers will advise them to do so)

Joe Mele
www.youseful.com

 

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
> One day programmers will be sued for faulty code  and no one will be there
> to protect them legally. The company you work for will blame you and drop
> you like a hot potato.(the lawyers will advise them to do so)

Well the common law has a concept called 'vicarious liability' which would
mean it wouldn't work for them (I don't know if this applies in the US)
unless you were doing something outrageous, incredibly negligent or not as
directed.  In which case how did it get through QA?

Oliver Townshend

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
> Unlike most british colonies the US does not use common law.

Actually they do.  They just diverged in 1776.  A superficial search of
google reveals that Vicarious liability does apply in the US.

Quote
> I think this
> is why they spend all their time thinking of new laws and making up funny
> ones as they go along.

Well yes, this never happens in Australia or Britain :)

Quote
> Interestingly where I work (as a contractor), the permanent programming
> staff all work for a union which is incredibly weird.

Do they work for a union?  Or are they members?

Quote
> I guess I'm used to
> programming being considered a professional job, much like doctor's and
> engineers, whcih aren't run by unions. I guess here programmers are just
> cheap labour!

Doctors have a very good unions, they are just called 'professional
organisations'.  Lawyers are much the same.    I have no idea where
Engineers stand on this.  Computer programmers don't have professional
organisations with any clout (in my experience) because anyone can do it,
i.e. there are no barriers to entry.

Oliver Townshend

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
> Well the common law has a concept called 'vicarious liability' which would
> mean it wouldn't work for them.

Unlike most british colonies the US does not use common law. I think this
is why they spend all their time thinking of new laws and making up funny
ones as they go along.

Interestingly where I work (as a contractor), the permanent programming
staff all work for a union which is incredibly weird. I guess I'm used to
programming being considered a professional job, much like doctor's and
engineers, whcih aren't run by unions. I guess here programmers are just
cheap labour!

Marc

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
Youseful Software wrote:
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/904728.asp?0dm=C17KT

> Programmers will soon need to unionize , like teachers, lawyers
> police etc.

> One day programmers will be sued for faulty code  and no one will be
> there to protect them legally. The company you work for will blame
> you and drop you like a hot potato.(the lawyers will advise them to
> do so)

A company employee acting at the behest of his supervisor is fairly well
shielded from personal liability claims but by definition independent
contractors work without direct company supervision and may well be exposed
to personal liability claims and risk having to defend themselves in
lawsuits. You had better understand the terms and conditions of any
client-consultant relationship you enter into especially if you have any
family assets you don't want being sold to pay lawyer bills.

Errors and Omission Liability Insurance is prohibitively expensive.  Guilds
or unions may help to reduce insurance costs and lobby for more lenient
laws. Splitting your fees with a reputable body shop is often justified by
their providing affordable liability protection to both parties.

--Hairy

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
"Oliver Townshend" <oli...@zip.com.au> wrote in message

news:3eafba1d@newsgroups.borland.com...

Quote
> > Unlike most british colonies the US does not use common law.

> Actually they do.  They just diverged in 1776.  A superficial search of
> google reveals that Vicarious liability does apply in the US.

  Louisiana doesn't follow common law.

--
Mike Swaim
sw...@hal-pc.org
Will create applications for food.
http://www.hal-pc.org/~swaim

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
>   Louisiana doesn't follow common law.

Hadn't thought of that.  I imagine it would apply at the Federal level, but
not at the State, and in employment law there would be plenty of overlap.
Sounds like a lawyer's picnic to me.

Oliver Townshend

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
Marc Rohloff wrote:
> > Well the common law has a concept called 'vicarious liability' which would
> > mean it wouldn't work for them.
> Unlike most british colonies the US does not use common law. I think this
> is why they spend all their time thinking of new laws and making up funny
> ones as they go along.

> Interestingly where I work (as a contractor), the permanent programming
> staff all work for a union which is incredibly weird. I guess I'm used to
> programming being considered a professional job, much like doctor's and
> engineers, whcih aren't run by unions. I guess here programmers are just
> cheap labour!

Actually a "professional" is one that is liable for their actions. Until
programmers are liable, then they can not be professionals.
Quote

> Marc

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
> Actually a "professional" is one that is liable for their actions. Until
> programmers are liable, then they can not be professionals.

<Ouch!!>

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
"Ron Schofield" <r...@schofieldcomputer.com> wrote in message

news:3EAFD55E.A3DBB93E@schofieldcomputer.com...

Quote
> Actually a "professional" is one that is liable for their actions. Until
> programmers are liable, then they can not be professionals.

Not to worry, various market forces are conspiring to quickly eliminate
programming jobs in the US.  Over the next 5-10 years, it's estimated any
"programmers" left in the US will be mostly independents/consultants and
perhaps some Open Sourcers who don't get paid anyway.

So much for that career.

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
> Do they work for a union?  Or are they members?

You lost me here. What's the difference?

Quote
> Doctors have a very good unions, they are just called 'professional
> organisations'.  Lawyers are much the same.    I have no idea where
> Engineers stand on this.  Computer programmers don't have professional
> organisations with any clout (in my experience) because anyone can do it,
> i.e. there are no barriers to entry.

Engineers also have professional organizations to which they have to
belong.

To me this is different. Professional organizations make sure that their
members are qualified and able to do what they say and are liable (as
someone pointed out).

Unions seem to me to be exactly the opposite, they vociferously(?sp)
defend and protect their member's regardless of the situation or any
concept of professionalism. You don;t seem to have to know what you are
doing to be accepted by a union.

My personal opinion of unions is that by protecting their members to the
extent that they do, they do not promote the best interests of the
industry, which is really their best interest. I also think that
programmers should choose. Do we want to be part of a union which is
typically of basic labour (auto manufacturing for example) or do we want
to be considered professionals. I think it is up to us to decide.

Marc

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
"JQP" <s...@888.nu> wrote in message

news:3eafdcb6$1@newsgroups.borland.com...

Quote
> "Ron Schofield" <r...@schofieldcomputer.com> wrote in message
> news:3EAFD55E.A3DBB93E@schofieldcomputer.com...
> > Actually a "professional" is one that is liable for their actions. Until
> > programmers are liable, then they can not be professionals.

> Not to worry, various market forces are conspiring to quickly eliminate
> programming jobs in the US.  Over the next 5-10 years, it's estimated any
> "programmers" left in the US will be mostly independents/consultants and
> perhaps some Open Sourcers who don't get paid anyway.

...first predicted in 1968.  I'll wait for the movie.

John Elrick

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


I wonder who the customer sues over a buggy third party component used by
the system?

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
Youseful Software wrote:
> One day programmers will be sued for faulty code  and no one will be there
> to protect them legally. The company you work for will blame you and drop
> you like a hot potato.(the lawyers will advise them to do so)

Thanks for the article. I like this part:

"But Kaner favors making companies liable only for bugs not disclosed to
customers, and for limited damages."

Sounds like a perfect argument for QualityCentral. ;-)

--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, http://bdn.borland.com
$1280/$50K: http://homepages.borland.com/jkaster/tnt/thanks.html
Make a wish: http://qc.borland.com * Get source
http://codecentral.borland.com

Re:This is bad , very bad omen on msnbc.com


Quote
"John Elrick" <jelr...@adelphia.net> wrote in message

news:3eafe6a5$1@newsgroups.borland.com...

Quote
> ...first predicted in 1968.  I'll wait for the movie.

Better buy a ticket now, you may not be able to afford one later<g>

Previous predictions were unsubstantiated.  Now there are statistics from
the US Department of Labor which confirm the trend.  According to the Bureau
of Labor Statistics, computer programming lost 4% of it's job base in 2002
and it is expected to accelerate over the next few years.

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