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Re: A Modest Proposal *


2006-11-01 03:10:18 AM
delphi143
Victor Helsing writes:
Quote
As I recall, the Turbopower folks gave their products to the public
domain, and even Interbase allowed its code to enter that way some
time ago.
Both were open sourced, not given to the public domain. Not the same
thing since open source comes with substantial licensing restrictions,
whereas public domain does not.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] ?Vertex Systems Corp. ?Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
How to ask questions the smart way:
www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

With all of the furor related to the recent roadmap, I am left wondering
what to do with Kylix, which I felt was a wonderful extension of Delphi onto
the Linux platform when it was first released. Naturally, many of us who
have invested numerous years into developing with Delphi are upset at the
abandonment of Kylix, and us, as customers.
Having read carefully most of the furious babble related to recent events
(i.e. roadmap and its proposed revisions), I am left with two distinct
impressions.
1) Linux development with Delphi/Kylix is still strongly desired by (a
sustantial portion) of the developer community.
2) Kylix was (necessarily) abandoned by Borland due to unavoidable financial
realities.
Of course, we as developers and customers are upset at being abandoned, but
that by itself is not a sufficient reason for Borland to throw good money
after bad in a financially unviable business sector. Is it possible to
reconcile the business needs of Borland to move forward with respect for its
Kylix community?
I suggest, with all sincerity, that Borland consider placing Kylix into the
public domain. This act of goodwill would be a great gift to the developer
community at large, and allow a motivated group of developers to continue to
maintain and grow Kylix in the open source market. Since development tools
in the Linux market are less prevalent than Windows (yes, I am a computer
systems engineer from long ago, and yes, I know about gcc, perl, yacc,
fortran, etc.), Kylix would have an opportunity to flourish there, perhaps
encouraging a new crop of enthusiasts who would come to be familiar with it
on the Linux platforms and then (God forbid) even wish to use a similar
development tool on Windows (Horrors, perhaps even Delphi .NET).
I remember the good old days when we were forced to write our own C
compilers to run on microcomputer systems (to program in something other
than BASIC), and in those days, the first TurboPascal was released. What a
godsend! You could edit, compile and run your program quickly, all within
the same environment!
What a blessing it would be to have a LIVING Kylix available to the Linux
community, to give relative novice programmers an easy way to get their feet
wet in simple programming as well as GUI development.
Such a gift is not unprecedented. As I recall, the Turbopower folks gave
their products to the public domain, and even Interbase allowed its code to
enter that way some time ago.
If Kylix MUST be abandoned by Borland, for very real, unavoidable reasons,
why not set the young infant out in a little basket to be adopted by some
kind soul who will raise him to be a great man one day? He need not starve
to death, and we do not ask Borland to sacrifice itself trying to feed the
little guy, if it is not practical.
Victor Helsing
* - As most of you know, the title "A Modest Proposal" is taken from the
essay written by Jonathan Swift in the 1700's, satirically suggesting that
infants should be offered up as food to solve the widespread poverty and
misery then prevalent in Ireland. Like him, I do not actually approve of the
eating of children, no matter how tasty they may be when properly prepared.
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

"Craig Stuntz [TeamB]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM [a.k.a. acm.org]>wrote
in message news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
Both were open sourced, not given to the public domain. Not the same
thing since open source comes with substantial licensing restrictions,
whereas public domain does not.
Craig -
You are quite right, I misused the expression public domain in this case.
Open source was the nature of the release I intended to propose for Kylix as
well.
Thanks for clarifying. (I am just a dumb old programmer not accustomed to
them high fallutin' expressions.)
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

Doesn't Kylix include substantial portions of the Ebony/Ivory
IDEs running on top of VMWare? If that is the case I don't
see Borland ever putting them in the Public Domain.
Public Domain means you relinquish all copyrights, and the
last thing they'd want is someone taking their code and properly
marketing and supporting the development environment.
The FPC/Lazarus guys would probably like that though, contrary
to what any of them may say after they read the above sentence
fragment <rbg>
- Nate.
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

"Victor Helsing">
Quote
I suggest, with all sincerity, that Borland consider placing Kylix into
the public domain. This act of goodwill would be a great gift to the
developer community at large...
Give them a plan B, what about buying Kylix and releasing it as open source.
Why not start a nonprofit org. to accept donations from Novell, Oracle or
Red Hat and the community to pay for Kylix.
How much will Borland sell Kylix????.....
8:}
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

Nathaniel L. Walker writes:
Quote
Doesn't Kylix include substantial portions of the Ebony/Ivory
IDEs running on top of VMWare?
You must mean Winelib, not VMware. Correct?
Quote
If that is the case I don't
see Borland ever putting them in the Public Domain.
Right... that is what I would think as well. There is just too much source
code that is common with Delphi itself. OK, the Kylix code base is
quite dated now... but there's probably plenty of Borland/DTG IP tied up
in that source code anyway.
Cheers,
Kevin.
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

"Chester and the water hose blues band" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote
in message news:4547b9e0$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
Give them a plan B, what about buying Kylix and releasing it as open
source. Why not start a nonprofit org. to accept donations from Novell,
Oracle or Red Hat and the community to pay for Kylix.
How much will Borland sell Kylix????.....
That does raise an interesting point. Granted, Borland would not like to
give away intellectual property for which it is continuing development. For
that reason, placing Kylix into the open source may not be feasible from a
legal point of view. But transferring control and maintenance of the Kylix
software to an entity interested in doing it (with restrictions), while
maintaining ownership rights over the intellectual property itself (to
protect Delphi and other related ongoing Borland product lines), seems an
option worth considering.
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

Quote
That does raise an interesting point. Granted, Borland would not like to
give away intellectual property for which it is continuing development.
For that reason, placing Kylix into the open source may not be feasible
from a legal point of view.
That's what I tougth, it is hard to think that Borland would open source the
whole product, the Kylex compiler would be the target of the open source
community 'couse I doub borland would release the IDE code in any way.
Quote
But transferring control and maintenance of the Kylix software to an entity
interested in doing it (with restrictions), while maintaining ownership
rights over the intellectual property itself (to protect Delphi and other
related ongoing Borland product lines), seems an option worth considering.
That sounds good to me.
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

"Kevin B" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Nathaniel L. Walker writes:
>Doesn't Kylix include substantial portions of the Ebony/Ivory
>IDEs running on top of VMWare?

You must mean Winelib, not VMware. Correct?
Yes, I meant Wine.
Quote
>If that is the case I don't
>see Borland ever putting them in the Public Domain.

Right... that is what I would think as well. There is just too much source
code that is common with Delphi itself. OK, the Kylix code base is quite
dated now... but there's probably plenty of Borland/DTG IP tied up in that
source code anyway.
Agree.
Quote
Cheers,
Kevin.
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

Chester and the water hose blues band writes:
Quote
>That does raise an interesting point. Granted, Borland would not like to
>give away intellectual property for which it is continuing development.
>For that reason, placing Kylix into the open source may not be feasible
>from a legal point of view.


That's what I tougth, it is hard to think that Borland would open source the
whole product, the Kylex compiler would be the target of the open source
community 'couse I doub borland would release the IDE code in any way.
I just played with the idea of using the assemblies of BDS in a new
environment. Not for selling a derived product, only to fit together the
building blocks in an different way. Borland could give away the
building blocks of Kylix, or of other products, together with the
purchase of the regular product. Then the community could package the
product anew, with possibly better acceptance by the users. And finally
Borland could sell a new version, based on their own renewed building
blocks, and the already commonly accepted packaging.
DoDi
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

Victor Helsing writes:
Quote
If Kylix MUST be abandoned by Borland, for very real, unavoidable reasons,
why not set the young infant out in a little basket to be adopted by some
kind soul who will raise him to be a great man one day? He need not starve
to death, and we do not ask Borland to sacrifice itself trying to feed the
little guy, if it is not practical.
great.
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

I think they should release a free personal Turbo version. May as well have
people using it, and it should increase + gauge interest levels.
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software] writes:
Quote
I think they should release a free personal Turbo version. May as well have
people using it, and it should increase + gauge interest levels.


There is already the Kylix 'Open Personal SKU' edition which allows you
to create GPL applications only, but it desperately needs fixes to be
useable.. Any new interest evaporates quickly when new users try to use
the out of date bug ridden Kylix :(
Siegfried
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

Quote
There is already the Kylix 'Open Personal SKU' edition which allows you to
create GPL applications only,
I'm not sure whether the Turbo editions allow you to release GPL apps or not
but I think that a Turbo Kylix might be a good idea if it wouldn't envolve
too much work.
Quote
but it desperately needs fixes to be useable.. Any new interest evaporates
quickly when new users try to use the out of date bug ridden Kylix :(
Obviously any show stoppers would need to be fixed, but not *all* bugs.
 

Re: A Modest Proposal *

Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software] writes:
Quote
I'm not sure whether the Turbo editions allow you to release GPL apps or not
but I think that a Turbo Kylix might be a good idea if it wouldn't envolve
too much work.
The 'Turbo editions license ' is a lot less restrictive since you can
also develop commercial applications. To release GPL license
applications would be entirely the developers prerogative..
The problem with Kylix is that it uses the QT library (CLX) which
requires a commercial license to release commercial applications. This
is why you can't release commercial apps with the Kylix open edition
and the Turbo license would not work.
Quote

>but it desperately needs fixes to be useable.. Any new interest evaporates
>quickly when new users try to use the out of date bug ridden Kylix :(

Obviously any show stoppers would need to be fixed, but not *all* bugs.
We have been crying out for this for a couple of years now but it is
falling on deaf ears :(
Chicken and egg..
They always ask /say nobody is buying Kylix, but who wants to spend
money on buggy software that is not supported by the vendor? :(
Actually it would be better NOT to expose Kylix to any new customers
since it does more damage than good in the state it is in.. In case they
want to release a new version in the future which IMO this would only be
possible if some portions of Kylix are released under an OSS license to
allow the community to help out..
Siegfried