Board index » delphi » Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Re: CrossKylix discontinued


2007-10-13 08:20:29 AM
delphi227
Ben writes:
Quote
Actually it does help. It points to a realization that some CG people 'get
it' with regards to some attitudes of the Apple userbase. It is not
something to be overlooked -- and it is an enabling factor with how (poorly)
Apple treats its ISVs.

Yeah, it probably could have been stated in a more politically correct
manner, but there are enough people who are tired of PC bullsh*t and
marketing-speak that do appreciate these comments.
It's not about being PC. If Nick had said with the same directness as
you have above regarding why CodeGear should proceed with caution
because of how Apple treats ISVs, it would have been a very different thing.
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Tom writes:
Quote
Dean Hill writes:

>In this group, you could probably count the number of people who want a
>Linux IDE on both hands. That picture changes drastically for
>x-platform compilation. As long as CG don't think all of us on the
>x-platform compilation front need/want the IDE.

I'd agree with that statement. Heck, I would be happy if VCL could be FPC
compatible!
FPC 2.2 compiles the VCL.
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Farshad writes:
Quote
"Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]"
>Farshad writes:
>>...and how could they forsee that Delphi for .net will be
>>commercially successful before they start spending time/money on
>>Delphi 8?
>
>I have no idea where they get or got their data. I would assume from
>their customers (no, not only this group <g>) and prospective
>customers. Also, especially then, .NET was promoted big time as
>the future of Windows (and it may still be), and Borland's RAD
>products were mainly for Windows.

But none of these could guarantee that Delphi 8 will sell enough copies.
.NET was meant to unite all Windows developers under MS flag and it
was obvious that .NET will damage Delphi market share which is what
has happened in reality.
Has it? I am not aware of any facts that show this.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find
it." -- Andr?Gide
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Dean Hill writes:
Quote
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:

>Exactly. And apparently some want CodeGear to invest a lot of
>time/effort/money on a rather doubtful premise, i.e. that there are
>enough people who want to pay for one.

In this group, you could probably count the number of people who want
a Linux IDE on both hands. That picture changes drastically for
x-platform compilation.
Perhaps. But I would expect CodeGear to ask more people than those on this
group. Also note that those who want something they don't have will be
more vocal than those who simply don't need it.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"I failed to make the chess team because of my height."
-- Woody Allen
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Tom writes:
Quote
Dean Hill writes:

>In this group, you could probably count the number of people who
>want a Linux IDE on both hands. That picture changes drastically
>for x-platform compilation. As long as CG don't think all of us on
>the x-platform compilation front need/want the IDE.

I'd agree with that statement. Heck, I would be happy if VCL could be
FPC compatible!
FPC is cross-platform. The VCL (even VCL.NET) is a pure Windows
framework, and it is very good at that. Making the VCL cross-platform
would produce something like (Visual) CLX, which was, IMO, not nearly
as good, since it could not exploit the strengths of one platform, like
the VCL does.
I'd guess that making the VCL cross-platform would make it lose a lot
of its "snappiness".
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"Why do grandparents and grandchildren get along so well? They
have the same enemy -- the mother." -- Claudette Colbert.
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

DaniŽl Mantione writes:
Quote
Depends, Lazarus doesn't really use a lowest common
denominator, it more has a certain set of components which are
implemented on platforms on a best-effort base.
What is the difference between best-effort and lowest common
denominator?
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"Now comes the mystery"
-- Henry Ward Beecher, dying words, March 8, 1887
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Dani√ęl Mantione writes:
Quote

>But would still have the problem that you, as IDE user, also must code
>to the lowest common denominator, i.e. something like CLX again (or,
>say, wxWidgets).

Depends, Lazarus doesn't really use a lowest common
denominator, it more has a certain set of components which are
implemented on platforms on a best-effort base.

I.e. often, if some GUI toolkit doesn't have a certain feature
it can be implemented. If necessary a custom widget can be
created. Using an approach like this you can prevent that
you get crippled because of the LCD. It is more laborious
though, and sometimes it can happen some functionality is not
implemented for a GUI toolkit due to technical limitations.

Or don't use a foreign GUI toolkit at all, that is the design of
MSEide+MSEgui:
sourceforge.net/projects/mseide-msegui/
MSEide+MSEgui links directly to gdi32 and xlib, the whole widget library is
written in Pascal. It was a huge work but it is worth the trouble.
Martin
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Cool, but I wonder what good that would do? If I am on Windows anyway,
I'd rather use Delphi than FPC. And I doubt the VCL compiles on other
platforms FPC supports.
With the core non-visual classes such as TObject and TStringList, there
should not be a problem.
--
Dean
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Perhaps. But I would expect CodeGear to ask more people than those on this
group. Also note that those who want something they don't have will be
more vocal than those who simply don't need it.
Yes, but you also have to agree that CG need to make some significant
strides to gain new clients. Incremental changes will not cut it.
There needs to be significant reasons for companies to chose Rad Studio
rather then Visual Studio because management of these companies will
undoubtedly lean the Microsoft way. I still believe that Delphi is the
best tool for Native Windows development. On the .NET side, there is
very little to chose between MS and CG.
--
Dean
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Rod writes:
Quote
FPC 2.2 compiles the VCL.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
--
Dean
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
What is the difference between best-effort and lowest common
denominator?
Best effort requires that each component implement as much of the core
as possible whereas LCD would limit everyone to the basics. So, for
example, LCD may require that the TEdit on every platform have a
context menu. If this were not possible in Linux then that feature
would have to be dropped. Best effort would allow a TEdit on Windows
with the context menu and a TEdit on Linux without it.
--
Dean
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Martin Schreiber <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
Or don't use a foreign GUI toolkit at all, that is the design of
Absolutely not! The MSEgui is an extreme example of an lowest
common denominator approach: You use no native functionality
at all, instead you know every platform can draw
custom widgets in some way or another, so you only use the
draw functionality of the OS.
In the MSEgui approach, no application will be able to take
advantage of operating system specific features.
DaniŽl Mantione
P.s. you don't need to advertise the MSEIDE website to me,
I already found it :)
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

On 2007-10-12, Dean Hill <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
Marco van de Voort writes:

>I'm not a believer of Delphi FPC support. Besides the CG legal
>department, people seem to assume that a BDS FPCplugin solution could
>even match Lazarus.
>
>I still have to see that, specially the designer and de{*word*81}.

It depends on where most of your time is spent when development. If
someone spends 60% of their time designing forms etc then that may be
so but if you spend the majority of your time working on back end code,
Rad Studio with all of the plug-ins available (GExperts, MMX,
CNPack...) cannot be matched.
Depends on how you do development. I never bother with the functions of
those packages. I work with D7, but I think I could see a case for extract
procedure, but the rest of the options is too rare to really be noticable.
(*)
Quote
Putting it simply, I'd think that the FPC base would more then
double with a Rad Studio FPC personality.
While I doubt that, it doesn't matter at all. Contributors is what FPC
needs the most, not users that are invisible in anything but download stats.
Quote
thing for FPC. There are always going to be people who are unhappy and
would prefer Lazarus and the ability to develop on multiple platforms
etc.
I think it could be a minor point for CG for e.g. WinCE development or so.
But without some integration, and being able to workaround problems (and
create new features) from both IDE and compiler side is way too valueable.
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Dean Hill writes:
Quote
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:

>Cool, but I wonder what good that would do? If I am on Windows
>anyway, I would rather use Delphi than FPC. And I doubt the VCL
>compiles on other platforms FPC supports.

With the core non-visual classes such as TObject and TStringList,
there should not be a problem.
They are part of the RTL, not of the VCL. Using the VCL with FPC on
Windows would not do any good, though, if you can use it with Delphi
instead.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
 

Re: CrossKylix discontinued

Dean Hill writes:
Quote
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:

>Perhaps. But I would expect CodeGear to ask more people than those on
>this group. Also note that those who want something they don't have
>will be more vocal than those who simply don't need it.

Yes, but you also have to agree that CG need to make some significant
strides to gain new clients. Incremental changes will not cut it.
I never said they should not create added value. That doesn't mean that
going cross-platform is the answer, though. I personally doubt it.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
and I am not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)