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Re: Update on Who Owns the code


2004-11-09 05:14:13 AM
delphi226
"Thomas Miller" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Dan Barclay writes:

>Bill,
>
>First, I Am Not A Lawyer.
>
<snip>
>
>If it was done as a "work for hire" then you own the copyright, even if
you
>were implementing someone else's idea. The copyright is on the
>"expression". That is why, for example, Lotus (and eventually MS
Excell)
>was able to build a spreadsheet even though VisiCalc implemented the
idea of
>the electronic spreadsheet.
>

If you are an independent, then you own the code by
copyright law. It is right in the book for filing for a
copyright. If you are an independent, then the contract has
to specifically state that the work is done as a "work for
hire" for the copyright to belong to the customer. I work
for hire implies that the _customer_ owns the code.
That is what I meant to say. Terminology issue (see "First..." <g>). What
I was calling "work for hire" was to hire an independent contractor as
opposed to an employee arrangement, but maybe that is the wrong term.
The point being, if you're doing it in the capacity of an employee type
arrangement as opposed to hiring a more independent contractor, the company
owns the copyright. If done by an "independent" contractor then the
independent owns the copyright.
Bottom line, spell it out in the agreement.
Thanks for the clarification,
Dan
 
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

"Bill N" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Apologize for starting a new thread but there is a new wrinkle.

1) First I did contact a lawyer friend of mine. He said that since
I'm a friend he will ONLY charge $300/hour. His quick advice was that
it would be best to settle this out of court. If that fails, try small
claims court.

2) The new wrinkle is that the client is saying that he doesn't care
if we own the code. it is his ideas that fueled the system. It is true
that the client provided me with what the system should do and look
like. He gave me an excel spreadsheet and said that I should do the
programming.

I'm thinking he still needs my code therefore any sale he's transacting
involves my property.

Am I on the right track? Comments, suggestion are welcome.

Thanks,
Bill N
Hi, Bill,
There are monthly subscriptions for legal services, where you pay a small
fee each month for unlimited phone consultations over the phone. This can
be a big help to figure out the details, and perhaps the strategy.
With at least one such service, they refer you to another lawyer who will
actually argue the suit in court, and you get a 25% discount on that
lawyer's fee. Finally, the market agrees that we have too many lawyers.
;<)
Also, buy the book "You Can Negotiate Anything" by Herb Cohen and read it at
least twice. That guy understood leverage.
Kirk Halgren
"My toughest fight was with my first wife."
-- Mohammad Ali
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

But, could you / would you really trust an individual like that with sales,
payment, finances, etc of something like this? Trust is gone, there is no
business relationship, unless you get an impartial 3rd party involved to
manage all of those things it would be a tough position to be in.
Doug
"BOB-O-MATIC" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
>Not entirely, because the argument can become (if you worked as an
>employee) that the employer owns the code - and they just owe you money
>for your work time.
>
>This is where it gets sticky if you are in an employee arrangement - even
>unofficially.

A. He was no employee.
B. Either side has zero to gain from suing or from pissing off the
other.
C. Both sides can make some money if they work together.

Butter him up and slap some A1 on the crow.

 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Ingvar Nilsen writes:
Quote
What a nice chap. Wish I had such friends. Maybe your friend needs
some help with his computer? Then you know the rate...
Yeah, no kidding. Even taking the US/Canadian exhcange rate into
account, $300 per hour is no friendly bargain.
--
Eric Schreiber
Kobayashi Software
www.kobayashi.com
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Quote
1) First I did contact a lawyer friend of mine. He said that since
I'm a friend he will ONLY charge $300/hour. His quick advice was that
it would be best to settle this out of court. If that fails, try small
claims court.
Get a second (and if necessary, third) opinion and quote. At this stage it
is free for you, so ask a few people and go with the guy/gal that you
professionally resonate with and trust.
And don't do it through a friend. Get objective, detached, professional
advice.
But settling out of court is excellent advice anyway, if you can swing it.
Lauchlan M
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Dan Barclay writes:
Quote
To clarify, you would *not* own the copyright if your agreement with them
said that you wouldn't. For example, when I am farming out code that I
expect to go into one of our products we explicitly agree up front who owns
the software (my company)... or we don't do it<g>.
Do all of you who do that (farm out code to contractors) realize that
the Delphi license agreement requires you to purchase a Delphi license
for the contractor, even if the contractor already owns a license?
Read the license agreement: Any work you produce with Delphi must bear a
valid copyright notice, and it must either be that of the original
purchaser or that of Borland.
(I ought to add that nothing Dan Barclay wrote lead me to believe he
doesn't know or doesn't do this. There are other reasons for me asking.)
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Henrick Hellström [StreamSec] writes:
Quote
Do all of you who do that (farm out code to contractors) realize that
the Delphi license agreement requires you to purchase a Delphi
license for the contractor, even if the contractor already owns a
license?
What do you mean with "farm out code"?
If that means hiring programmers for specific jobs off-site it seems to
be utter nonsense what you claim :)
Quote
Read the license agreement: Any work you produce with Delphi must
bear a valid copyright notice, and it must either be that of the
original purchaser or that of Borland.
I have so far never seen a single PAS file without a copyright notice.
What do you really mean??
--
Ingvar Nilsen
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Ingvar Nilsen writes:
Quote
What do you mean with "farm out code"?
1. Company A hires developer B for writing some code with the copyright
of company A. In such case, company A must purchase a Delphi license for B.
2. Company A hires developer B for writing some code with the copyright
of B. In such case, B must purchase the Delphi license.
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Henrick Hellström [StreamSec] writes:
Quote
Ingvar Nilsen writes:

>What do you mean with "farm out code"?


1. Company A hires developer B for writing some code with the
copyright of company A. In such case, company A must purchase a
Delphi license for B.

2. Company A hires developer B for writing some code with the
copyright of B. In such case, B must purchase the Delphi license.
Ok, thanks!
Now I see and understand what you mean!
Quite acceptable too.
--
Ingvar Nilsen
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Ingvar Nilsen writes:
Quote
Quite acceptable too.
Yes, but I have "heard from a friend who heard from a friend" that some
developer farms offer rates that I don't get to add up unless:
3. Company A hires developer B for writing some code with the copyright
of company A. B uses a copy of Delphi registered to B.
As far as I can see this is in conflict with the Delphi license agreement.
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Henrick Hellström [StreamSec] writes:
Quote
3. Company A hires developer B for writing some code with the
copyright of company A. B uses a copy of Delphi registered to B.

As far as I can see this is in conflict with the Delphi license
agreement.
What does "hire" mean here? Employment?
If this is true, most of the jobs that takes place on rentacoder.com and
the like is in violation with the license.
A free standing developer of course has his/hers own equipment including
all software. And the software being produced and paid for will in
most, if not all - cases belong to the company ordering the job.
--
Ingvar Nilsen
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Ingvar Nilsen writes:
Quote
If this is true, most of the jobs that takes place on rentacoder.com and
the like is in violation with the license.
That is how I interpret the Delphi license, yes.
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Quote
>If this is true, most of the jobs that takes place on rentacoder.com and
>the like is in violation with the license.

That is how I interpret the Delphi license, yes.
It sounds like they are saying even though person A has a licence and person
B, contracting for person A, also has a licence, person A still has to buy a
third licence (a second licence for person B) that no-one actually needs and
no-one uses, in order to comply with the licencing terms.
Is that what you mean?
Sounds crazy if so. Do you think it is the sort of thing they'd intend to
enforce, or that the licence terms were just written that way to say that
person B just has to have a valid licence (either their own or bought for
them by person A)?
Lauchlan M
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Lauchlan M writes:
Quote
It sounds like they are saying even though person A has a licence and person
B, contracting for person A, also has a licence, person A still has to buy a
third licence (a second licence for person B) that no-one actually needs and
no-one uses, in order to comply with the licencing terms.

Is that what you mean?
Yes. Remember that a copy of a software and license to use the software
are two completely different things. You are correct that person B does
not need another copy of the software, and that B already has a license
to produce software with the copyright of B, but that doesn't entail
that person A does not have to purchase an additional named developer
license for person B, in order for B to produce software with the
copyright of A.
Quote
Sounds crazy if so. Do you think it is the sort of thing they'd intend to
enforce, or that the licence terms were just written that way to say that
person B just has to have a valid licence (either their own or bought for
them by person A)?
I don't think Borland would go to court unless there was serious money
at stake. Say, an independent contractor has done work for 100 customers
and would be forced to purchase 100 Delphi Professional licenses; total
US$100,000.
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com
 

Re: Update on Who Owns the code

Lauchlan M writes:
Quote
Sounds crazy if so. Do you think it is the sort of thing they'd intend to
enforce, or that the licence terms were just written that way to say that
person B just has to have a valid licence (either their own or bought for
them by person A)?
BTW this is what the license says:
"3.3 Certain Restrictions. /.../ (c) all copies
of the Works you create must bear a valid copyright
notice, either your own or the Borland copyright
notice that appears on the Product..."
The way I read this, it says that anything you create with your copy
Delphi must bear either the Borland copyright or your own copyright, and
"you" are the the owner of the license ("THE ORIGINAL PURCHASER").
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com