Board index » delphi » Re: So, how's D2007?

Re: So, how's D2007?


2007-03-21 01:08:35 AM
delphi202
Michael Swindell (CodeGear) writes:
Quote
even as recently as this month - when we were heads down working on Delphi
2007 we rolled back fixes for 2006 into hotfix 11
Michael,
What you did was not some heroic backporting of a new feature into an
old version as you seem to be suggesting.
All you did was release a patch to provide correct DST calculation in
the runtime libraries used by the C++ personality of the your currently
shipping flagship product. And it was released mere days before that
code was required by your customers to meet the deadline resulting from
a change in law that you were aware of for more than a year.
Furthermore, you only provided precompiled libraries for BDS 2006. Users
of the previous versions got handed the modified source files, and were
told to rebuild the runtime libraries themselves.
This is not a shining example of support for your current product, let
alone an example of supporting and maintaining a product after its
successor has been released.
If anything, you should be ashamed of hotfix 11 not proud of it.
Dennis Cote
 
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

Michael,
| But the help system itself is really not something that can be
| retro'd back into 2006.
My mother always told me "You can not make a silk purse out of a pig's
ear." And you can not make a Model-T into a 1941 Lincoln Continental.
Progress is FORWARD! Not backward. it is always been, and always will
be, that way.
No, I wasn't happy with BDS2005 or 2006 either. But,... that is life.
Now old news. Time to "quit beating a dead horse," as my dad used to
say, and move on!
Personally, I am quite happy with the Delphi progress from BDS2006 to
Delphi 2007 (And what I expect of Future RAD.). And I think the
CodeGear crew should be proud of the progress they are making.
--
Q
03/20/2007 09:07:07
XanaNews Version 1.17.5.7 [Q's salutation mod]
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

Ed,
| BDS2007 will be the one to replace BDS2006.
Hmmm,... RAD2007?
--
Q
03/20/2007 09:19:55
XanaNews Version 1.17.5.7 [Q's salutation mod]
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

I respect your opinion, but disagree.
"Dennis Cote" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Michael Swindell (CodeGear) writes:
>even as recently as this month - when we were heads down working on
>Delphi 2007 we rolled back fixes for 2006 into hotfix 11

Michael,

What you did was not some heroic backporting of a new feature into an old
version as you seem to be suggesting.

All you did was release a patch to provide correct DST calculation in the
runtime libraries used by the C++ personality of the your currently
shipping flagship product. And it was released mere days before that code
was required by your customers to meet the deadline resulting from a
change in law that you were aware of for more than a year.

Furthermore, you only provided precompiled libraries for BDS 2006. Users
of the previous versions got handed the modified source files, and were
told to rebuild the runtime libraries themselves.

This is not a shining example of support for your current product, let
alone an example of supporting and maintaining a product after its
successor has been released.

If anything, you should be ashamed of hotfix 11 not proud of it.

Dennis Cote
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

In article <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Bob Dawson says...
Quote
"Jolyon Smith" wrote
>
>Before your SA end? Just curious. How do you know? (even more
>curious...! lol)

It's really not that hard--but I do pay attention.
So you _know_ for a fact that BDS 2007 will be released in the next 8
months? Source?
I really think you should share this inside information as it may
materially affect the decisions of other potential purchasers of
CodeGear products.
Quote
>>So the SA has already paid for itself in getting me Delphi 2007 for less than
>>the Ent upgrade price
>
>Good luck finding the C++/C3/Delphi.net personalities.

I'm not looking for them in this box. But I still got a product I want for
less than half it is normal upgrade price.
And what if you were a BDS Ent user who was a C# builder user with only
1 month left on their SA? What good is that Delphi 2007 release to you then?
I appreciate you are responding for you yourself alone, but I'm
considering SA in the wider context.
Quote
>How long has your run been? How much have you won by?

I've been on SA since 2003. In that time my expenses for DBS have been
predictable, and about $2K less than what I'd have had to pay otherwise.
Not counting any upcoming releases.
Never mind what you would have HAD to pay to get what SA got you whether
you wanted or needed it or not. What WOULD you have paid to get what
you have actually found useful in that time?
_That_ is the comparison you have to make. Otherwise you are the sort of
"blind upgrader" for whom SA makes obvious sense, even if the approach
doesn't.
--
Jolyon Smith
WHILE INKEY$ WEND
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

In article <4600067c$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Q Correll says...
Quote
Jolyon,

| If coffee was provided on "subscription",

Dumb analogy. Coffee <>software.
I know - please note that it wasn't _my_ analogy.
;)
--
Jolyon Smith
WHILE INKEY$ WEND
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

In article <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Steve Tyrakowski
says...
Quote
In article <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Jolyon
Smith writes:
>Sure, the bean counters will approve an annual SA committment without
>batting an eye-lid, but that doesn't mean that the boxes will ever be
>opened by the practitioners.
>
>I've seen plenty of departmental cupboards filled with literally
>unopened Delphi 6, 7, 8, BDS 2005 and BDS 2006 boxes while their
>applications continue to be developed and supported in Delphi 5.0, while
>the same people working with Delphi 5 at their office desks go *home* to
>play with the latest greatest tools.

Economically there is a benefit to buying SA by removing the time (and
stress) that you would have spent to evaluate whether to purchase the
product.
You stil have to go through that exercise. SA simply makes sure that
the vendor gets your money whether you decide the upgrade is worth it or
not.
And often you don't need to spend much time at all. It soon becomes
apparent from the community response to a new product release whether
there is any value in looking at the upgrade yourself.
Quote
Certainly there will still be an evaluation of the tool after you get it
in-hand, but that would need to be done in either scenario before you put
it into live use.
Trial editions provide the mechanism for making this assessment without
having to commit to an upgrade purchase.
Quote
Now if the same kitchen is preparing both of these, and the customers of
each are happy with the value they get, why should a cafeteria customer be
interested in convincing the buffet customers that they are {*word*3} their
money because maybe roast beef might not be on today's menu, or the chicken
might be overcooked today.
These attempts at analogies fall at one very obvious hurdle.
If SA customers were buffet customers, one key aspect of the analogy is
that one day they pay their dining fee upon entering the buffet, only to
find that all the food on sale is over a year old.
Yeugh.
;)
--
Jolyon Smith
WHILE INKEY$ WEND
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

Jolyon,
| I know - please note that it wasn't my analogy.
<chuckle>
--
Q
03/20/2007 14:19:15
XanaNews Version 1.17.5.7 [Q's salutation mod]
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

In article <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Jolyon
Smith writes:
Quote
If SA customers were buffet customers, one key aspect of the analogy is
that one day they pay their dining fee upon entering the buffet, only to
find that all the food on sale is over a year old.
The analogy is not the age, but rather the choices. Buying the buffet
option lets you choose to partake in anything on the buffet which I
consider to be all the releases made during the SA contract. If any one
release is less than stellar, I have still got all the others at my disposal.
If I were to only buy selected releases I have just got fewer choices.
There's nothing wrong with that approach if satisfies your needs. I guess
I don't understand why you seem to need to convince others that their
different choice is wrong?
As developers we may all have a lot in common, but we've all got different
needs and different values we place on how our time is spent. Some slight,
and some not so slight. With a worldwide market, the cost can also vary
widely as a percentage of annual income whether it is due to geography or
hobby/occupational/professional reasons.
No one is 'wrong' for choosing to prefer one mode over the other. I think
SA will be a good choice, but only time will tell. CodeGear will need to
prove it by releasing good products frequently enough to make it a
no-brainer to renew. Even then, some people may find better value in the
ala carte upgrade approach.
The only 'wrong' choice is to not use CodeGear tools at all<g>.
Steve Tyrakowski
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

"Jolyon Smith" wrote
Quote

I appreciate you are responding for you yourself alone, but I'm
considering SA in the wider context.
So you say.
Quote
you wanted or needed it or not. What WOULD you have paid to
get what you have actually found useful in that time?

_That_ is the comparison you have to make.
Obviously I'd pay what I did. Renewal is a yearly choice that has simply
always made sense for me as a Delphi developer.
Quote
Otherwise you are the sort of
"blind upgrader" for whom SA makes obvious sense, even if the
approach doesn't.
So either one agrees with you--a former Borland customer who hasn't even
bought the basic product since before SA existed, or one is a blind
upgrader? that is your version of 'wider context'?
Sorry Jolyon, but someone who hasn't seen the need to upgrade at all in five
years is not a really a good source of advice for those who do upgrade and
are considering whether SA is a worthwhile addition to their purchase.
Anyone upgrading to Delphi 2007 has already decided not to follow your example.
bobD
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

Jolyon Smith writes:
Quote
And it is only those people who choose to
add SA to their Delphi 2007 upgrade who disagree with my view of SA.
..and those who have seen SA as a good option before D2007. Like Bob,
for instance.
Trying to tell him that something isn't a good thing when it already is
good for him seems exceedingly pointless.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

"Jolyon Smith" wrote
Quote
>"Jolyon Smith" wrote
>>
>>I appreciate you are responding for you yourself alone, but I'm
>>considering SA in the wider context.
>
>So you say.

Yes I did didn't I. Sorry, was there a point?
That you seem to be missing the 'big picture' entirely--that SA is not about
a one-time gamble as to whether there will be another release in the next 12
months, but whether a Delphi developer wants to stay current at the cheapest
possible price over the long term.
Quote
[...] the SA proposition is an
open, non-specific promise with no warranty.
With respect to software delivery, yes: SA is closer to a program membership
than a product purchase.
Quote
Anyone upgrading to Delphi 2007 without SA on the other hand quite clearly
agrees that SA does not in and of itself hold the intrinsic and certain
value that you and others seemingly ascribe to it.
Like buyng into SA, buying a membership in a country club or buying club
provides no particular value either unless, in the buyer's judgment, likely
use in the long term (and associated member discounts or privileges) will
recoup the cost of membership. I don't see where anyone has said anything
different.
Personally, it is been a great deal for me and looks to be getting even
better. But obviously someone who only upgrades every 5+ years might not get
the same value--unless of course that person would like to update more
often, but hasn't been able to only because of cost or budgetting, which SA
directly helps.
So if it is not right for you, I am perfectly willing to accept that. All that
I argue against is your repeated slurs about it being a 'protection' racket
or some type of scam. It hasn't been for me, and I openly encourage Nick et.
al. to do everything they can to promote it as a good deal for both CodeGear
and many CodeGear customers. But perhaps not you. Just uncheck the block if
and when you ever upgrade again and let it go.
bobD
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

In article <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Dave Nottage [TeamB]
says...
Quote
Jolyon Smith writes:

>And it is only those people who choose to
>add SA to their Delphi 2007 upgrade who disagree with my view of SA.

..and those who have seen SA as a good option before D2007. Like Bob,
for instance.
Yes of course, providing that they :continue: to see SA as a good
option.
Quote
Trying to tell him that something isn't a good thing when it already is
good for him seems exceedingly pointless.
If that is what I was trying to do. Which it wasn't. I :question: how
good for him it really has been.
I expected such apparent conviction to be founded on ready knowledge of
some $$ quantified benefit given the economic foundation of the argument
- so far this isn't actually clear, which I find surprising.
--
Jolyon Smith
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

In article <46016c28$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Bob Dawson says...
Quote
That you seem to be missing the 'big picture' entirely--that SA is not about
a one-time gamble as to whether there will be another release in the next 12
months but whether a Delphi developer wants to stay current at the cheapest
possible price over the long term.
And you still don't get it.... not every new release is of practical
use, so paying for every new release up front will not necessarily be
cheaper - even over the long term - than only paying to upgrade to the
releases that ARE of practical use.
Your philosophy also relieves CodeGear of any pressure or obligation to
MAKE the releases of practical use.
I see that as a bad thing for the product, it is users and CodeGear (in
your beloved long run).
Quote
Like buyng into SA, buying a membership in a country club or buying club
provides no particular value either unless, in the buyer's judgment, likely
use in the long term
Again, you unintentionally offer a very good example of what SA is NOT
like.
When you consider joining a country club you can assess it is facilities,
consider it is location and decide whether you are likely to make
sufficient use of it over the course of your membership.
You do not know how useful SA will be to you because you literally do
not know what you will be getting, if anything, or when.
Your first year's membership of a country club is also typically not
DOUBLE the annual renewal. There may be a joining fee, but that would
typically be less than the membership fee itself, not more.
And you can typically join at any time - you don't have to take out a
membership at the same time as using the facilities as a non-member.
You can try the facilities out for a while, and then perhaps later
decide to join up as a member.
Just as coffee <>software subscription, country clubs <>software
subscription.
Quote
So if it is not right for you, I am perfectly willing to accept that. All that
I argue against is your repeated slurs about it being a 'protection' racket
or some type of scam.
Not intended as a slur - but as an analog. And nobody afaik has yet
come up with a better analog (coffee and country club memberships don't
work, for example).
And please note, by the way, that I have also said that it is actually
closer to a lottery ticket than a protection racket.
I have NEVER said that SA was a scam.
--
Jolyon Smith
WHILE INKEY$ WEND
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

Jolyon Smith writes:
Quote


Just as coffee <>software subscription, country clubs <>software
subscription.

Yes, but one often DRINKS coffee at country clubs, so there you go...
Oh, wait, I seem to have lost track of this thread...
David Erbas-White