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Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue


2007-08-30 02:29:30 AM
delphi168
Nick Hodges (CodeGear) schrieb:
Quote
David Erbas-White writes:

>how, exactly, did the situation GET to the 'impossible' point?

No comment.

Anything done already to make the same sort of thing impossible in the
future?
Greetings
Markus
 
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Markus.Humm writes:
Quote
Anything done already to make the same sort of thing impossible in
the future?
Yes, of course --
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Brian Moelk writes:
Quote
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
>This taught me to first learn the facts before running my mouth. I
>will not so easily criticize others anymore, even if experience
>tells me there is something wrong.

Wise words.

>That is not being apologetic.

Nor is that why you've been cast as TApologist.
No? That is how it looked to me.
Quote
IMO, this simply means that we should have limited confidence in
judgments based upon limited knowledge.
Since it was based on NO knowledge, you should probably have NO
confidence in such a judgement at all. <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same
level of thinking we were at when we created them."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Since it was based on NO knowledge, you should probably have NO
confidence in such a judgement at all. <g>
You don't know if it was based without knowledge.
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Brad White writes:
Quote
I haven't seen anyone arguing about that.
I think this is the one thing that everyone
agrees on.
Yes, and I am glad we all agree on that point.
Quote
If I understnd Dee correctly, they are building
a system that will incorporate examples.
The opint of contention appears to be whether
she should have it finished by now.
Not Dee personally, but yes, there are varying opinions about how long
such a task "should" take. My point is that as it stands now, the help
system sucks and any discussion about anything else is moot.
It doesn't change that Borland/CodeGear has shipped, three/four times
now?, a part of their product that is of very poor quality.
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

It happens that Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] formulated :
Quote
"I'm always amazed to hear of air crash victims so badly
mutilated that they have to be identified by their dental
records. What I can not understand is, if they don't know who you
are, how do they know who your dentist is?" -- Paul Merton.
Do you have any insight on this?
I've wondered...
Thanks,
Brad.
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
That is not only the point. The CHM files are newer, and have better
indexing already. They are still far from ideal, but showing at least
some progress. If that is "elsewhere", of course that is not so
tedious. I was thinking of searching online or in sources outside
CodeGear.
Actually the two places I normally go when I get frustrated with the
help are to the VCL source and then "g xxxx" in Opera for a google
search. The Google route can be a lot more productive then the help
sometimes and faster.
--
Dean
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Dean Hill writes:
Quote
Actually the two places I normally go when I get frustrated with the
help are to the VCL source
Oh, indeed, but I have been doing that for a long time already, even in
the Delphi 7 time period. I use my Greppola app to search for what I want to
know. Also ideal if you don't know the exact identifier you are looking
for.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"Democracy does not guarantee equality of conditions - it only
guarantees equality of opportunity." -- Irving Kristol
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Brad White writes:
Quote
Brian Moelk used his keyboard to write :
>The bottom line is that even if you dismiss all the judgments
>(sympathetic and apoplectic) of *how* and *why* Delphi's help system
>sucks, the fact remains: it still sucks.

I haven't seen anyone arguing about that.
I think this is the one thing that everyone
agrees on.

If I understnd Dee correctly, they are building
a system that will incorporate examples.
The opint of contention appears to be whether
she should have it finished by now.

HTH,
Brad.


Let me be clear about one thing.
I don't believe she (Dee) should necessarily have it finished by now.
I do believe that CodeGear should HAVE HAD IT finished by now.
I also believe that CodeGear should ensure that resources are put on the
task to ensure that it is completed (to at least a beta level) in the
reasonably near future -- at that point the resources could be reduced
to 'maintain' it and/or correct the (hopefully) few remaining issues.
I'm not blaming Dee, I am blaming CodeGear management for not having
addressed the problem thoroughly and timely.
David Erbas-White
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Brad White writes:
Quote
It happens that Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] formulated :

>"I'm always amazed to hear of air crash victims so badly mutilated
>that they have to be identified by their dental records. What I can't
>understand is, if they don't know who you are, how do they know who
>your dentist is?" -- Paul Merton.

Do you have any insight on this?
I've wondered...

Thanks,
Brad.


In an aircrash, you have a list of victims. You collect dental charts
for ALL listed victims, and then play 'match-up'.
David Erbas-White
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

In article <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Brian Moelk says...
Quote
>If they aren't careful, Microsoft will realise their own mistake
>(perhaps starting to already) and when they decide to retake that high
>ground, CodeGear will need to be firmly entrenched if they are to
>survive.

I disagree here. MS are and will continue to do quite well with .NET.
I was thinking specifically of the Native Development battleground.
Microsoft pretty much turned their back on native code developers, with
the exception of C++, so perhaps let's say native code "RAD" developers.
That left a huge open goal for the likes of Borland/CodeGear, but the
goalie could be rushing back to defend the net as we speak.
:)
--
JS
TWorld.Create.Free;
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Jolyon Smith writes:
Quote
That left a huge open goal for the likes of Borland/CodeGear, but the
goalie could be rushing back to defend the net as we speak.
^
Don't you mean .net :)
--
Dean
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Brian Moelk writes:
Quote
My point is that as it stands now, the help
system sucks and any discussion about anything else is moot.

It doesn't change that Borland/CodeGear has shipped, three/four times
now?, a part of their product that is of very poor quality.
C# Builder
Delphi 8
Delphi 2005
Borland Developer Studio 2006
Delphi 2007
C++ Builder 2007
The abomination known as "Turbo". Does that count? it is not "RAD Studio
Family of Products", but it is still the same guts. I would count it.
I get seven releases.
--
-Brion
There's no such thing as 'one, true way;'
- Mercedes Lackey
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

David,
| I am blaming CodeGear management for not having addressed the problem
| thoroughly and timely.
How do you know that they didn't? Perhaps they did and the [project]
failed. BT, DT. <sigh>You're making an assumption that if they had
addressed the problem "thoroughly and timely" that it would have
succeeded. Things don't always work out as expected.
It appears from what I have read here-and-there that the Delphi/BDS, Help
documentation was in a sad state of disarray. It does no good and
makes little sense to place blame now, after the fact. That CG, Dee,
etc., are deeply committed and involved in trying to fix the problem is
what is important in my mind. JMPO.
--
Q
08/29/2007 16:24:05
XanaNews Version 1.17.5.7 [Q's salutation mod]
 

Re: A very good blog about the Delphi 2007 Help Issue

Q Correll writes:
Quote
David,

| I am blaming CodeGear management for not having addressed the problem
| thoroughly and timely.

How do you know that they didn't?
Because this has been an ongoing problem for several releases now. It's
not a new issue.
Perhaps they did and the [project]
Quote
failed. BT, DT. <sigh>
Well, apparently you didn't get the T-shirt... <G>
You're making an assumption that if they had
Quote
addressed the problem "thoroughly and timely" that it would have
succeeded. Things don't always work out as expected.
Once again...
I can understand one failure (i.e., porting from one help system to
another creating problems that were unforeseen). I can almost
sorta-kinda understand two failures (not correcting the problem caused
by the first problem). But as someone pointed out earlier, there have
been about SEVEN releases of the software with poor/inadequate
help/documentation. That, my friend, is a major issue.
Quote

It appears from what I have read here-and-there that the Delphi/BDS, Help
documentation was in a sad state of disarray. It does no good and
makes little sense to place blame now, after the fact.
You still don't get it. It ISN'T after-the-fact.
I (and MANY others) have been harping about the poor help/documentation
for YEARS. it is been an ACKNOWLEDGED problem. We were very vocal about
it back when BDS2006 came out -- so why is CONTINUING to discuss the
failure to fix the problem 'after the fact'???
That CG, Dee,
Quote
etc., are deeply committed and involved in trying to fix the problem is
what is important in my mind. JMPO.

I believe that Dee is deeply committed to this. I believe that Nick is
deeply committed to this. I have seen little to no evidence that the
entity known as CodeGear is deeply committed to this. I haven't, for
example heard from the 'new, forthcoming, blogging' CEO about this. I
have not heard any public commitments to fix the problem coming from the
'entity' known as CodeGear. I have heard very carefully phrased,
SOX-avoidant statements from Nick, and that is about all I have to go on.
David Erbas-White