Board index » delphi » Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

David Clegg

Delphi Developer
 

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components


2004-01-04 02:44:58 PM
delphi108
Derek Davidson writes:
Quote
On a personal note, if someone reports a bug to me as I am just going
through my day I sure as hell act on the report.
As a developer who works for a large company that took over a smaller
company (which I also worked for), I have seen both sides of the coin.
I used to have the luxury to do as you describe, and pounce on almost
every reported bug as they came to my attention. However now there are
many other factors to consider, so reported bugs have to be assessed
and prioritised, and I *never* have the time to fix them all (no matter
how much I would actually like to).
 
 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 05:24:43 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

Dave Jewell writes:
Quote
It's probably also relevant to point out that the serialisation problem
with Delphi 8 is also present in C#Builder, as I think you yourself found.
No, the serialization problem is not present in C#Builder. The DevEx
problem is present in C#Builder, but C#Builder uses the Microsoft C#
compiler, and I am pretty sure that knows how to handle serialization.
So, the DevEx problem is not just due to serialization.
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty."
-- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 05:28:59 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

Derek Davidson writes:
Quote
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) writes:

>There are clear, long time existing channels for such things, and
 >every field tester and technology partner knows about them, and uses
 >them. Using any other means of communication would be a waste of time
 >for both sides, and would have the risk that information gets lost of
 >doesn't reach the proper person.
Sorry Rudy, but I don't agree and I have evidence to the contrary.
To cut a long story short, that posting resulted in Borland creating a
fix and also the guys at Firebird (who trawl through here fairly
regularly, I guess). I didn't post to QC (I still think it is a black
hole) as I thought I had spent more than enough time reproducing the
error without spending even more time on Borlands administrative
bug-reporting requirements.
I merely said that people not using the proper channels RISK that their
information gets lost. I have no idea what your post tries to prove,
except thast you can be lucky and find the right person.
And QC is most definitely not a black hole. Many of the issues posted
have been resolved in the meantime. But being a BTP, DevEx have a much
better channel, and if they used that, Borland would know it.
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"There is no sincerer love than the love of food."
- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
 

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 05:31:47 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

Wayne Niddery [TeamB] writes:
Quote
How would you possibly know that it is yours (and others) postings to
these groups *alone if at all* that resulted in a bug fix? It is quite
possible that a) the IB team was aware of it already and had it on
their internal list and/or b) *someone else* took the time to report it
via QC. If such postings to these groups helped at all, it is quite
possibly because it motivated someone else to report it properly, but
that still does not mean your postings resulted in the fix
And even if they did, it was a mere coincidence that someone from IB saw
it and acted upon it. Posting to these newsgroups is not guaranteed to
get anything across.
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"Science is what people understand well enough to explain to a
computer. All else is art." -- Donald Knuth
 
Derek Davidson

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 06:08:05 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

JoeH writes:
Quote
So this non-productive, (possibly therapeutic for you) "emotional
diarrhea" will continue unabated ?
Hmmm. Oddly enough, I have never quite thought of it like that :)
--
Derek Davidson
www.enterpriseblue.com
 
Derek Davidson

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 06:32:47 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

Wayne Niddery [TeamB] writes:
Quote
How would you possibly know that it is yours (and others) postings to
these groups *alone if at all* that resulted in a bug fix?
Because I got this reply from Sriram Balasubramanian at Borland in
b.p.i.bugdiscussion news group:
"first of all, let me thank you for the detailed report you have
created
identifying the problem. It definitely makes the job easier to track
down the issue."
Also, this from Aaron Ruddick at Borland in the same newsgroup:
"We have reproduce the problem on Win2k SP4. We are tuning it over to
r&d case#175399.
Thank you very much for your work! When I get more information I'll
post it here..."
This was followed by another announcement of the fix.
Quote
It is quite possible that a) the IB team was aware of it already and
had it on their internal list and/or b) *someone else* took the time
to
report it via QC.
Neither of the above happened and neither case is true.
Quote
If such postings to these groups helped at all, it
is quite possibly because it motivated someone else to report it
It would appear from the foregoing that Borland entered it themselves.
Quote
but that still does not mean your postings resulted in the fix.
Yes it does - the facts speak for themselves.
Quote
That you apparently do not wish to believe it (and
hence not use it) hurts everyone - yourself, other customers, and
Borland.
Hogwash. I will believe in QC when Borland take reports that are two
years old and even acknowledge their existence let alone fix them!
Maybe the InterBase guys are better at utilizing QC than the Delphi
guys are? I don't know the answer to that one.
Quote
I do not know the details with DevEx, but it appears evident they
resisted using appropriate means of repoting problems.
Pure supposition. Let's see what comes out of it all shall we?
Quote
Your
insistence that this shouldn't matter is silly
No it isn't. it is bureaucracy gone mad. Are Borland going to refuse to
handle bugs because they weren't reported via QC? Thankfully not (as
my experience proves)
Quote
I find it bizarre
that some actively refuse to use those provided means and then still
complain that Borland doesn't listen or fix bugs
Then as you don't see the problem, you don't believe one exists. But
it's a simple fact of life. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to
see that:
a. If you put barriers in the way of communication, people will not
communicate with you.
b. If people do communicate with you and you ignore them, they won't
try to communicate with you again and it will foster an air of
resentment.
Quote
- such complaints
smack of deliberately wanting Borland to fail.
People like me, that state it as they find it, are not responsible for
Borland failing. People that report a less than positive image of
Borland are not responsible for Borland failing. Borland are
responsible for their own demise (if any - and I SINCERELY hope they
survive for many years to come).
--
Derek Davidson
www.enterpriseblue.com
 
Derek Davidson

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 06:34:22 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) writes:
Quote
Posting to these newsgroups is not guaranteed to
get anything across.
On that we can certainly agree :)
--
Derek Davidson
www.enterpriseblue.com
 
Derek Davidson

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 06:39:29 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

Hannes Danzl[NDD] writes:
Quote
yeah well, if you're a one or two man company maybe, otherwise you've
to have one or more channels the report has to pass through.
No Hannes, not at all. I have worked in senior positions at larger
corporations. People would notify me of bugs as I walked down the
corridor. I didn't ignore them and neither did I tell them to report
it via our 'reporting mechanism'. I would go find the bug, record it and
set about getting a fix in place.
Quote
If anyone at borland who receives a bug message or reads one in the
newsgroups starts fixing them, i don't want to see the end result.
Well you should :) See the response I made to Wayne Niddery a few
messages back and check whay happened in b.p.interbase.bugdiscussion.
Quote
even for a one man company I'd think it is not in general the best
solution. in some cases yes, in others no.
The customer is king. I have always been told it and I believe it. If a
customer actually takes time to talk with me - I am grateful. If they
report a bug I am even more grateful because of what it means: I can
find the bug, fix it abnd get a patch out fast making a more stable
product and keeping my customers happy.
Quote
honestly i don't think that was because of your report except maybe
it was a big security issue.
Again, check the thread and see for yourself.
--
Derek Davidson
www.enterpriseblue.com
 
Derek Davidson

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 06:41:53 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

David Clegg writes:
Quote
However now there are
many other factors to consider, so reported bugs have to be assessed
and prioritised
I never intended to infer otherwise. Imagine the sceanrio this way if
you like:
A. Customer approaches you and tells you of a bug in your software.
You tell them to report it via your reporting mechanism.
B. Customer approaches you and tells you of a bug in your software.
You thank them and enter the bug report yourself using the reporting
mechanism.
I always try to use B.
--
Derek Davidson
www.enterpriseblue.com
 
Carl Caulkett

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 07:50:46 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) writes:
Quote
Dave Jewell writes:

>It's probably also relevant to point out that the serialisation
 >problem with Delphi 8 is also present in C#Builder, as I think you
 >yourself found.
No, the serialization problem is not present in C#Builder. The DevEx
problem is present in C#Builder, but C#Builder uses the Microsoft C#
compiler, and I am pretty sure that knows how to handle serialization.

So, the DevEx problem is not just due to serialization.
Hi Rudy,
Regardless of whose problem it is, it is a fact that a nested property
of a type descended from System.ComponentModel.Component is not
streamed out in either Delphi 8 or C#Builder at design time, whereas if
the property is of a type descended directly from
System.MarshalByRefObject the design time streaming works.
That this can be demonstrated in a simple test app with no references
to DevEx, I think, disqualifies it from being a DevEx problem. Also,
the fact that this is a design-time problem means that even though the
compiler knows how to handle serialization, there is design time code
present in the C#Builder IDE that does not.
--
Carl
 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 08:06:29 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

Carl Caulkett writes:
Quote
Regardless of whose problem it is, it is a fact that a nested property
of a type descended from System.ComponentModel.Component is not
streamed out in either Delphi 8 or C#Builder at design time, whereas if
the property is of a type descended directly from
System.MarshalByRefObject the design time streaming works.
Yes, I had read that before, about D8. I didn't know it didn't work in
C#Builder either?
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"Fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run."
-- Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 09:38:04 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) writes:
Quote
Carl Caulkett writes:

>Regardless of whose problem it is, it is a fact that a nested property
 >of a type descended from System.ComponentModel.Component is not
 >streamed out in either Delphi 8 or C#Builder at design time, whereas
 >if the property is of a type descended directly from
 >System.MarshalByRefObject the design time streaming works.
Yes, I had read that before, about D8. I didn't know it didn't work in
C#Builder either?
So I tried around a bit. It doesn't work in C#B either, and trying to
serialize it via a BinaryFormatter and a FileStream was a disaster (IDE
crash).
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"Never mistake motion for action." -- Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961)
 
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 09:41:16 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

Carl Caulkett writes:
Quote
Regardless of whose problem it is, it is a fact that a nested property
of a type descended from System.ComponentModel.Component is not
streamed out in either Delphi 8 or C#Builder at design time, whereas if
the property is of a type descended directly from
System.MarshalByRefObject the design time streaming works.
I tested it in C#B as well, and indeed. It must be the code that
interfaces the designer and the IDE. It can not be the compiler.
Of course it ought to be easy to check if I could serialize the text to a
file in D8. I will check that.
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"The secret of success is to know something nobody else knows."
-- Aristotle Onassis (1906-1975)
 
Dave Jewell

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 11:17:50 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

"JoeH" <JoeH_at_hqters_dot_com>writes
Quote
Between this and the "Borland Layoffs" thread there are
over 100 posts from you and Derek that seem to be "on behalf"
of DevExpress ??
Joe -- If you think that this issue only affects Developer Express
components, then you haven't understood the issue.
Dave
 
Dave Jewell

Delphi Developer

2004-01-04 11:29:25 PM

Re: Delphi 8 doesn't work with some Developer Express components

"Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
No, the serialization problem is not present in C#Builder. The DevEx
problem is present in C#Builder, but C#Builder uses the Microsoft C#
compiler, and I am pretty sure that knows how to handle serialization.

So, the DevEx problem is not just due to serialization.
Rudy -- Check the subsequent comments from Carl Caulkett. Also check the
"NET Components for D8" thread in devexpress.public.discussion. Amongst
other things, there's a reference in there to not being able to use the
DevEx .NET components with the C#Builder trial.
Mark Miller has pointed out that the main problem is due to design-time
serialisation code which is part of the IDE. This is why the problem occurs
in both Borland IDE's. When we talked about this a few days ago, I
suggested that there was maybe more than one issue here, and that may still
be the case. But the central issue is the serialisation code in the IDE
itself which is not doing the job properly. Until Mark mentioned it, I was
not even aware that the IDE has to provide design-time serialisation
services -- I assumed that it was all done in the FCL. Hope that helps.
Dave