Board index » delphi » Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP


2004-04-16 09:08:50 PM
delphi114
David Smith writes:
Quote
And AFAIK VS.NET supports only NET tools, Delphi will support two
different platforms in one IDE.
No, VS.NET lets you build Win32 apps using VC++. However, it would
not be practical to single-source an application for both .NET and
Win32 using C++, which Delphi will allow you to do.
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : delphi.weblogs.com
Everything You Need to Know About InterBase Character Sets:
delphi.weblogs.com/stories/storyReader$306
 
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

Craig Stuntz [TeamB] writes:
Quote
However, it would
not be practical to single-source an application for both .NET and
Win32 using C++
What's impractical about it?
I'm not being argumentative, but am genuinely curious.
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg_at_ebetonline_dot_com
Vote 1 cc.borland.com/codecentral/ccweb.exe/listing :-)
Quality Central. The best way to bug Borland about bugs.
qc.borland.com
"Marge, it takes two people to lie. One to lie and one to listen." -
Homer Simpson
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

David Clegg writes:
Quote
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] writes:

>However, it would
>not be practical to single-source an application for both .NET and
>Win32 using C++

What's impractical about it?
Different visual frameworks, different data access frameworks,
different libraries, and a lot of what C++ programmers like about C++
isn't allowed in managed C++. I guess it depends on your definition of
"practical."
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : delphi.weblogs.com
Please read and follow Borland's rules for the user of their
news server: info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

"davout" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
>I'm obviously going to disagree here. For our purposes, we don't care
about
>what tools other companies are using for Win32 development or their
opinion
>of Delphi in general.

It's what your clients/customers think that matters. My guess is that
Delphi
consulting assignments - already thin of the ground - will evaporate over
the next couple of years. Reason: there is no longer any compelling reason
to use Delphi for new projects.
Well, we're not a custom shop. We develop shrink-wrapped software for a
vertical market. Our customers don't care what platform we use to develop.
They simply want software that works.
Quote
Had Borland created a new version of Delphi that allowed the same code to
run across all three target platforms WIN32, .NET and Linux then there
might
be a strong case for retaining it, but regrettably that hasn't happened
and
doesn't look to be their strategy.
The Linux developer market, in general, does not seem very interested in
commercial development tools. And I am not seeing much interest for Linux
versions of our products or much other "off the shelf" software. I haven't
written off Kylix completely, yet. We'll see what Borland says about it in
2005.
Dan
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

"Dave Johnson" <daj@dee-ess-elldotpipexdotcom>writes
Quote
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 13:08:41 -0700, "Dan Palley" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM writes:
>We have a CRM application that has a GUI Win32 version in Delphi and a
>web-based version in Java. The business logic and functionality is the
>same, or similar, but the UI is somewhat different.
>
Dan
Does this mean that you have your business logic and functionality
coded twice in Delphi and Java, or are both UIs utilising some
middle-tier application server?
Just curious...
Cheers
Dave J
Right now, we don't have a middle tier, although we do put some logic in
stored procedures. I am probably going to be implementing a middle tier
using Datasnap (depending on which way it goes with .NET), but so far, the
only middle tier technology that looks to be completely compatible between
Delphi and Java would be SOAP, which I feel is too slow.
Dan
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

In article <407eddfc$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, XXXX@XXXXX.COM says...
Hi,
Quote
Our developers are split into two teams, one does mostly Delphi C/S apps
(Delphi 6/7), the other does mostly Java/JSP web sites using JBuilder 9.

We see a big difference in productivity between the two teams: The Delphi
folks can crank out new apps and modifications much more quickly than the
Java folks.
I use both Delphi and Java, and I see very little difference between the
productivity of the two. Of course one is a better solution for
somethings, the other at others.
The key to good productivity in both Delphi and Java is good design, and
good use of suitable frameworks and libraries.
Phil
--
Discover a lost art - play Marbles
May 2004
www.marillion.com
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

davout in <407f8d27$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
You may wish to point your Java colleagues at 'Echo'...

www.nextapp.com/products/echo/
IMO, choosing anything but JSF for Java web application development is
going to be like pushing a boulder uphill. it is the officially
sanctioned solution. And lots of sample applications are being
developed for it now.
--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, bdn.borland.com
Add a feature/Fix a bug: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

Valentino Kyriakides in <407f9fcf$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
What do you think John, will Borland go for the future more into the
direction I meant with Primetime?
Yes. We've already stated this intention multiple times in the past.
Quote
Or is maybe the majority of Borland
customers not much interested in such multiple language environments
and thus things remain better seperated?
I think the majority of Borland customers want to be able to choose the
language they want/need to use, and be as productive in it as possible.
As more and more development platform choices get made by management
rather than the people actually doing the work, this flexibility is
going to grow increasingly important.
To me, that will be one of the biggest selling points of high-level
refactoring and design tools that abstract the language. The language
is already becoming incidental.
--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, bdn.borland.com
Add a feature/Fix a bug: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

Hi
Quote
Right now, we don't have a middle tier, although we do put some logic in
stored procedures. I am probably going to be implementing a middle tier
using Datasnap (depending on which way it goes with .NET), but so far, the
only middle tier technology that looks to be completely compatible between
Delphi and Java would be SOAP, which I feel is too slow.
Take a look Remobjects middle trier technology, it great and have great
conectivity with soap, thier have a .NET Version
Regards,
Dennis Ortiz
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

"John Kaster (Borland)" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>schrieb im Newsbeitrag
Quote
Valentino Kyriakides in <407f9fcf$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:

>What do you think John, will Borland go for the future more into the
>direction I meant with Primetime?

Yes. We've already stated this intention multiple times in the past.

>Or is maybe the majority of Borland
>customers not much interested in such multiple language environments
>and thus things remain better seperated?

I think the majority of Borland customers want to be able to choose the
language they want/need to use, and be as productive in it as possible.
As more and more development platform choices get made by management
rather than the people actually doing the work, this flexibility is
going to grow increasingly important.

To me, that will be one of the biggest selling points of high-level
refactoring and design tools that abstract the language. The language
is already becoming incidental.

I share and agree with this viewpoint here, since I too think it will be
more and more important for the future to have just one good, widely
reusable flexible and productive development environment, which shares all
resources and fulfills all common design and development needs. Ideally such
an centralized dev environment would also be to some high degree expandable
and would also offer third parties to easily plug-in their solutions in a
seamless manner (VS .Net, Eclipse/WSAD and to some degree Borland's Java
Primetime allow todo so...).
Last year I reviewed some of the common dev tools and IDE we usually have to
use for our different customer related work. On just one of the computers I
realized that we had some ~8-12 dev tools which all came along with their
own related and hosted Java JDK's during their common installation, instead
of beeing able to reuse/share some preexisting installed one. - Reviewing
just the Borland dev tools we use, I still saw that most of them don't allow
to just share a common preinstalled Java JDK when installing them. E.g.
BES/BAS, JBX, OptimizeIt, Together, C++BX...and so on all mostly install
with their own accompanied/supplied JDK/JRE and most of them don't offer to
reuse just one from one of the other Borland Java based dev tools. Add
another bunch of non Borland Java based IDEs and dev tools and you will
realize that you are filling gigabytes of your HDDs repetetively always with
exact the same unneeded doubled stuff here. - It would be desirable if at
least the Borland dev tools would be able to share one actual common base
here. If they all together would also be hosted under the same centralized
and powerful dev environment it would be even better.
Actually for example Delphi and C#B could be hosted under the same dev
environment. The same would be possible for JBX and C++BX. Add Optimizeit,
Together and BAS etc. as some third party dev tools to them and you will
have that mutiple language and dev tools supporting common dev environment
(aka mutlti culti dev IDE).
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

I have to agree with davout.
I work on essentially the same products in Delphi for Win and JSP for the
Web.
Even allowing for my extra experience with Delphi over JSP I am much more
productive with Delphi.
This also seems the case for the other Delphi/JSP developers.
In addition the Web pages do not provide the range of functionality that the
Delphi pages do.
Mike
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

Valentino Kyriakides in <40804cdd$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
Actually for example Delphi and C#B could be hosted under the same dev
environment. The same would be possible for JBX and C++BX.
This is definitely the plan. Getting everything to share the same JDK
is a very difficult task, but certainly a worthwhile effort.
--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, bdn.borland.com
Add a feature/Fix a bug: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

Craig Stuntz [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Different visual frameworks, different data access frameworks,
different libraries
Doh! Of course. Obvious when someone else points it out to you. Lucky
for us that we've got VCL.NET then.
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg_at_ebetonline_dot_com
Vote 1 cc.borland.com/codecentral/ccweb.exe/listing :-)
Quality Central. The best way to bug Borland about bugs.
qc.borland.com
"Where's the 'Any' Key?" - Homer Simpson
 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

Point your Java developers to this site:
www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/
to get some knowledge about JSF and let them do some tryout of JSF via Suns
JavaCreatorStudion or the free Faces Console on some low priority project.
The later tool (Faces Console) can also be hooked into different common Java
development environments via plug-ins (for JBuilder via OpenTools). - So far
from our own experiences we can say, that JSF actually offers the fastest
way to be productive with JSPs we've seen in the Java world , especially
with such WYSIWYG based RAD tools like the Java Creator Studio etc. - On the
other side you can yield similar good productivity results in the .Net world
by using ASP.Net related develpments. - Best you let your team decide what
they make best experiences with and what they intensionally like or prefer
to use from both worlds, as far as your customers don't mind and influence
these decisions.
"Dan Palley" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>schrieb im Newsbeitrag
Quote
"Rich Bakos" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:407f0aca$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>Gerald Nunn writes:
>
>>If they are not using a framework, then yes productivity will be
>>absymally low, however some of the more popular frameworks such as
>>WebWork and Tapestry enable excellent productivity IMHO.
>
>Add SOFIA to the list of frameworks to consider.
>
>www.salmonllc.com

As far as I know, they're not using a framework (other than JSP). I
believe
early work was done using Struts, but it has since been abandoned.

I'll suggest that they take a look at these frameworks as well.

Thanks,

Dan


 

Re: Productivity in Delphi vs. Java/JSP

Depends upon the nature of the project.... anything that is heavily form
based is a natural for 'echo'...
"John Kaster (Borland)" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
davout in <407f8d27$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:

>You may wish to point your Java colleagues at 'Echo'...
>
>www.nextapp.com/products/echo/

IMO, choosing anything but JSF for Java web application development is
going to be like pushing a boulder uphill. it is the officially
sanctioned solution. And lots of sample applications are being
developed for it now.


--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, bdn.borland.com
Add a feature/Fix a bug: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com