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Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005


2006-05-12 04:17:39 AM
delphi123
Jacob writes:
Quote

I agree with your complaints but I think I prefer it the c#/java way with no
duplicate interface portion anyway. it is nice not having to maintain
duplicate interface sections. If they added a good class tree view that show
the methods, instead of that combobox, I wouldn't have any problems with it.
Hm. What's so wrong about the class view window with it is interface
window ? And the graphical view - class diagram available from a
context menu of this window ?
IMHO both IDEs have their pros and cons and there are many developers
that prefer fast and yet powerful editors like Emacs. Though I try it
once every year, I cannot get used to Emacs.
I have found many features I complained missing in one IDE, after I had
a deeper look at all the available functions/menus. And even after years
using them I read about features in newsgroups that I never was aware of.
Andre
 
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

Atmapuri writes:
Quote
Hi!
[...]
6.) When the compiler encounters an error it does not move
the carret to the first error in the list.
I miss that too. It can be simulated with a keystroke and the error
list. Though I have got used to it, not pressing and additional key.
Quote
[...]
Thanks!
Atmapuri
Andre
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

"Joe Hendricks" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
44639e8f$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
| In true non-tech fashion, I'd like to settle this thread's debate by
| pointing out that VS2005 has '2005' in the name, but BDS2006 has '2006'
| in the name... obviously BDS2006 must be superior. End of argument.
|
| :-)
Aaahh, it is nice to see a bit of irrationality once and again :-)
Keep taking the tablets.
Joanna
--
Joanna Carter [TeamB]
Consultant Software Engineer
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

Quote
That was AFAIK purposely omitted. Anders Hejlsberg and Danny Thorpe have
both explained in blogs or interviews why this makes sense:
The other justification was that if you change the default value, you
effectively change the signature of the method and so can break things on
recompile. Whereas on overloaded methods, if you change the "default" value,
a recompile won't break anything.
Oh, I understand the reasonings, it is still annoying :P
-BKN
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

Quote
What is missing is not a multipass compiler, but a 'friend' keyword, which
allows private or protected fields to be accessible from another unit.
Today you are limited by the unit scope when accessing private stuff and
by the inheritance scope when accessing protected stuff.
A 'friends' keyword would allow you to specifically declare what can be
accessed by a 'friendly' unit.

Not in my experience, the main weakness of the single pass is the
circular-referencing issues that occassionally crop up. The instances where
two objects in two different files need to know about each other, but both
files cannot be in both "uses" section. Yes, I know that is usually a sign of
bad object design, but it does rarely happen. Rare enough that I prefer
Delphi's compile speed and will live with said limitation.
-BKN
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

So... Can you give us the rundown on Delphi.NET,
since Delphi is a Win32 Language and Delphi.NET is
the CLR counterpart, it only makes sense to compare
.NET languages to each other.
Nate.
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

Om 00:51:08 uur, 12.05.2006, schreef Nathaniel L. Walker:
Quote
So... Can you give us the rundown on Delphi.NET,
since Delphi is a Win32 Language and Delphi.NET is
the CLR counterpart, it only makes sense to compare
.NET languages to each other.
Depending on what you want to do, it can also be very enlightening to
compare Delphi for Win32 and Delphi for .NET.
I don't see why it would only make sense to compare .NET languages to
each other.
--
Ramona
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

"Alex Tereshchenko" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

>To turn off code collapsing:
>
>CTRL+SHIFT K+O

(and they tell me that VS has 3 button shortcuts ;-)

I know about this, but unfortunately this settings does not persist...
I have heard this claimed before but am mystified as it persists across
sessions for me. Maybe it is because I also have the Editor Files and
Project Desktop Autosave options checked?
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

I was speaking of C# and Delphi.NET, for obvious reasons.
Nate.
"Ramona van Riet" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Om 00:51:08 uur, 12.05.2006, schreef Nathaniel L. Walker:

>So... Can you give us the rundown on Delphi.NET,
>since Delphi is a Win32 Language and Delphi.NET is
>the CLR counterpart, it only makes sense to compare
>.NET languages to each other.

Depending on what you want to do, it can also be very enlightening to
compare Delphi for Win32 and Delphi for .NET.

I don't see why it would only make sense to compare .NET languages to
each other.

--
Ramona
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

Hi, Atmapuri
Thanks a lot for the excellent relpy and all the info, very much
appreciated. Thanks.
To come back at the issue at hand, why then move to .Net at all if Vista
which is already released, is not going to natively support .Net. I mean
why not wait for the next generation thing whatever MS cooks up this time,
or do you think they will keep C# as the preferred programming language,
just on some new framework?
They will probably, no definitely as history has shown, abandon the all the
code written in .Net, and you will have to re-write it anyway. So then there
will be no diffrerence re-writing from Delphi to dot.X OR .Net to dot.X ?
I find it hard to move over to .Net, it feels like the framework and C# has
not matured yet?
We write mostly DB apps with Delphi 7, and when I approach our FD to upgrade
to .Net, the first question was: What is my bottom line increase and benefit
money wise? I couldn't think of any, and Win OS will probably support Win32
apps for the next +/- 10 years, maybe?
I have tried C# (DB programming), but what I have in Delphi 7 now cannot
even be compared to C# - database app wise. Like, and I know this is silly,
but the very first thing I tried was to make a SQL connection, put a dataset
on, link it to a datasetview (which everway to connect the zillion
components) and tried to view the data on a DBgrid in design time, just like
in Delphi 7, nope couldn't do that.
Okay close C#, and lets try tomorrow, when C# feels better ;-))
Anyway, it sometimes feel like a dead end, in the tug of war between .Net
and Java, and the developers (or Delphi developers) are caught in the
middle.
What are your opinions on the way forward, from here?
Thank
Best Regards
Wicus.
PS. Can we start a new thread of this, because it is not part of this
heading anymore?
Any ideas?
"Atmapuri" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Hi!

>>How can Delphi be so much ahead of its time?
>>(and how much exactly ?)
>
>"None, Delphi, as mentioned is falling behind itself."
>
>Can you please elaborate on the above statement?

1.) Platform issues:

The next generation of Windows OS (comming in
about 10+ years), will use .NET features but without
GC and IL.

This is because .NET has a lot of new and great things,
and GC and IL are two and only reasons why Windows OS
itself can't be 100% written with .NET and why .NET
only scratches the surface in Vista.

The problem here is that Microsoft would have to
develope two parallel but very similar platforms.

On one side you have unmanaged code, and on
the other the same thing, but with GC and IL.

GC and IL have their advantages, but no GC and
and no IL also. Naturally MS saw the great potential
of CLR, but wide spread adoption was stopped
by trying to fit too much in to a single package.

Imagine Windows OS would really be CLR like.
And that is only possible if you make it VCL like.
(= CLR - (GC and IL)).

It was not possible to kill JAVA and Delphi with
a single blow. The result is that they did not succeed
in either.

And although a great success, .NET fundamental
design is a failure which limits is lifetime. There will
be new engineers at MS that wont be attached to old
mistakes and things will change.

2.) Language design:

- Presence of interface section is better than current
MS C# implementation which uses code folding.
Treeview and classview etc... are also available in
Delphi and I never could make any decent use
of them. (I know only that they were copied from
VS).

- in .NET v2.0 Microsoft separated designer code
from the source code. Very similar to .dfm, but
not the same. The current implementation of Winforms
is impossibly difficult to maintain between different
versions.

dfm files are machine generated and have reproducable
and predictable pattern. Microsofts designer code
can be anything. How will you upgrade? The troubles
from v1.1 to 2.0 show that with great difficulty.

Sometimes it feels that MS just wanted to try something
different for the sake of not being blamed that they
copied Delphi 100%.

If C# would have interface section and dfm files
you really would have a hard time saying that C# with
VS.IDE is not a Delphi clone.

So, Microsoft tries to innovate. Great. But some things
in Delphi are trully breath taking. It shows that
in the making of Delphi, Anders Hejlsberg was not
the only father.

And as for the language features: both Delphi and C# will
eventually be a match except for the case when it comes
to operator overloading.

C# is based on GC and you absolutely can't write
operator overloaded code without putting an extreem
load on the memory manager.

Delphi has the freedom to provide cleaner
code syntax and code flexibility that C# simply wont
be able to match. (Ever!)

The advantages of GC can be greatly matched
by inteligent deterministic cleanup code built in
to the compiler. Examples of such a design are dynamic
arrays and strings. Arrays and string in C++ are not
automatically freed. And this releases the programer
of the majority of the "free" operations.

Why would you need a GC to complicate your life?

I am looking forward to see options for
referenced counted classes in Delphi and non referenced
counted interfaces.

Regards!
Atmapuri


 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

Quote
This is a question I just can not seem to get answered. Maybe I am not
asking the question correctly. (or maybe I just don't like the answer I
keep getting).
Post a new thread in ECO and we'll discuss it :-)
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

Wicus Botha writes:
Quote
Can you please elaborate on the above statement?
HOw about the fact that Delphi has been so slow that Borland had to
incorporate third party code to speed it up and still, it is slower
than Delphi 7 when it comes to loading, editing, and designing applications?
How about the fact that the IDE doesn't even reliably respond to some
commands such as view form source?
How about the fact that borland had to look to third party efforts out
of house just to attempt to address the speed issues of the Delphi IDE
instead of relying on in house code.
How about the fact that they never actually addressed the true cause of
the slow down, instead relying on third party memory managers and
fastcode routines to counterbalance the real problem (where ever it
might be). Code, which previous versions of Delphi can take advantage
of to also increase their speed?
FastMM and FastCode incorportated in to the Delphi IDE does not fix the
slow down, it mere hides the effects. If they had fixed the problem
the delphi IDE could be just as fast as Delphi 7 without them, but instead it
is slower even WITH them (but still a dramatic leap over D2K5 without
them).
How about the fact that instead of putting 100% of their efforts into
going forward, we now have every member of the borland development team
distracted by meeting about the sale of the company and how to look
good for potential investors?
And let's not forget the IDE that has become less useful for Win32
development just to make it compatible with the designers from
Microsoft for dotNet.
Or maybe we could take a peek over at GExperts who report that some
hotkeys simply are not available anymore become the opentools api is
suddenly unable to use them because they are hardwired into the IDE,
and how this makes it ever harder to create your own very difficult to
write custom key bindings because they randomly don't work from version
to version of delphi now?
Given a few more hours with the new Delphi IDE, I could probably go on,
but after my 30 day trial expired, I was less than interested in paying
AGAIN to get what is effectively a set of patches to D2K5, which was
completely unusable, no matter how much the UNOFFICIAL patches improve
it.
I suppose, however, we could take a gander at the help system, but
that's more Microsoft's domain than Borland (which is odd, because MS
leverages the system quite effectively, where as Borland seems to have
fallen short - but then Borland wouldn't know a good document if you
beat them with it, and hasn't since D2)
Yes, yes, you could say that incorporating FastMM and some fastcode
improves delphi and lets borland focus on other areas. It also lets
them ignore the areas that made incorporating that third party code a
requirement, which is bad.
Ever wonder why code Insight is so slow to use? Ever wonder why they
didn't multi thread it instead of making it blocking. I asked, and I
was told that it IS multi-threaded AND blocking. Starting to wonder
now? Like why bother making it multi-threaded if you block until the
thread is done? Granted, this little bug is a long standing one, but
why is it still there when the effort into making it properly
multi-threaded would dramatically improve the performance of the IDE?
In some areas, the IDE has gotten worse, significantly worse in some
areas. They've managed to mask some of the problems and convince you
to not ask about the other problems.
How is that not a step backwards again?
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

Quote
Because you'd always be working with an instance
Why? You don't have to.
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
_____________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Skype : jim.cooper
Tabdee Ltd www.tabdee.ltd.uk
TurboSync - Connecting Delphi to your Palm
_____________________________________________
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

Hi!
Quote
How about..
I agree you with you!
Regards!
Atmapuri
 

Re: After a few days with VS.NET 2005

Hi!
Quote
Anyway, it sometimes feel like a dead end, in the tug of war between .Net
and Java, and the developers (or Delphi developers) are caught in the
middle.
Dont trust anybodies judgement but your own. Keep an eye
on VS.NET and use what best fits the purpose.
Then comes the question:
What will hapen next year, two years ahead etc...
Those people that really have issues with questions like
that use C++ regardless of how much less productive
they are. Safe is safe...
And those which want to be really safe, dont even touch
Microsoft, but live with a pinguine.
I think it should have had crystalized in this newsgroup so
far:
- .NET is great for internet apps.
- Delphi.W32 is much much better for desktop applications.
If Delphi drops dead, you translate your code to C#
and thats it. Any other option?
What if C# drops dead 10 years after that
or something much better comes around?
What if you translate your code, reduce app quality,
spent time and money and Delphi survives and you
implicitely loose more money?
Well, life is not simple... everybody is his own judge
and nobody will tell you what to do and how to live...
thats the trick of it :)
But it does make sense to continue to use Delphi
at least as long as it does a better job... You can
always translate to C#.
Regards!
Atmapuri