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Pricing for Delphi32

"Jonathan W. Hendry" <steel...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

Quote
>Doug Clark wrote:

->
-> I just called Borland to find out when Delphi32 was going to be
-> released, and the pricing.  This was the information they gave me:
->
-> Release date: March 1st.
->
-> Pricing:
-> Delphi Desktop: $499.95
-> Delphi Developer: $799.99
-> Delphi C/S: $1999.95
->
-> I was surprised at the first two numbers.  I was hoping the first
-> would be <$200 and the second would be <$500.  So much for getting
-> Delphi in the hands of the people...

Quote
>Delphi will get into the hands of plenty of people. $500 is a
>couple days work for the typical developer. It ought to save that
>much time, compared to, say Visual C++ or VB.

For the professional developer, yes. For the average VB buyer: the
PC owner at home who wants to start programming, this is clearly
out of their spending range. Will someone who writes a small utility
and releases it as shareware really make $800 to justify the Developer
release ?

Quote
>Seem like decent prices to me. Borland's a business, not a charity.
>They've got an excellent product which rivals products much more
>expensive (like NeXTSTEP, which costs $5,000).

But don't forget Borland's own history with Turbo Pascal. OK, this is
a much more complete package, but Borland started with good, affordable
products (less than $100) that got millions buying it, people that
normally wouldn't buy a compiler. This way you're only preaching to
the already converted.

Rob
--
~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~
   Rob J. Nauta                                 r...@redwood.nl
NOTE: my opinions are strictly my own and not those of my employer

 

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


Quote
Tom Wheeley wrote:
>True, a business would
> think nothing of spending $800 on Delphi for its programmers, but in the home
> market that is _way_ overpriced.  I agree with that $200 and $500.

Hmm. Could it be, perhaps, that Delphi isnt' being marketed to the
home market? Just maybe...

--

Jonathan W. Hendry      Steel Driving Software, Inc.
Delphi and NeXTSTEP consulting and software development.
Cincinnati, Ohio

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


In article <821447918.17...@ppp44.csccs.com.au>
 "<>

Quote
" writes:
> r...@redwood.nl (Rob J. Nauta) writes:
> > "Jonathan W. Hendry" <steel...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> > >Doug Clark wrote:
> > ->
> > -> I just called Borland to find out when Delphi32 was going to be
> > -> released, and the pricing.  This was the information they gave me:
> > ->
> > -> Release date: March 1st.
> > ->
> > -> Pricing:
> > -> Delphi Desktop: $499.95
> > -> Delphi Developer: $799.99
> > -> Delphi C/S: $1999.95
> > ->
> > -> I was surprised at the first two numbers.  I was hoping the first
> > -> would be <$200 and the second would be <$500.  So much for getting
> > -> Delphi in the hands of the people...

> > >Delphi will get into the hands of plenty of people. $500 is a
> > >couple days work for the typical developer. It ought to save that
> > >much time, compared to, say Visual C++ or VB.

> > For the professional developer, yes. For the average VB buyer: the
> > PC owner at home who wants to start programming, this is clearly
> > out of their spending range. Will someone who writes a small utility
> > and releases it as shareware really make $800 to justify the Developer
> > release ?

> > >Seem like decent prices to me. Borland's a business, not a charity.
> > >They've got an excellent product which rivals products much more
> > >expensive (like NeXTSTEP, which costs $5,000).

> > But don't forget Borland's own history with Turbo Pascal. OK, this is
> > a much more complete package, but Borland started with good, affordable
> > products (less than $100) that got millions buying it, people that
> > normally wouldn't buy a compiler. This way you're only preaching to
> > the already converted.

>  I dont know about inflation in the rest of the world but here in Australia
> when TP was $100 a family car was $7500 today the same type car costs $30000
> an it doesnt compare to the leap that you find between TP and Delphi.
>  As far as $US800 is concerned that is for developers the 'Casual programmer
> can save $US300 buying Delphi desktop. If Australian pricing is similar to the
> US then VB is no cheaper.

They're both overpriced.  TP/TPW nowadays is ~70 quid street price, which I
think is very reasonable, then there is BP (the pro stuff) at L250.  I bought
Delphi for L150 and thought it a bit overpriced, but they were threatening at
the time to hike it up to 300.  So what if the price of a car has quadrupled,
I would never (unless I win the lottery) pay over L200 for a piece of
software.  (*possibly* something like Office excepted).  True, a business would
think nothing of spending $800 on Delphi for its programmers, but in the home
market that is _way_ overpriced.  I agree with that $200 and $500.

--
* TQ 1.0 * The 'Just So Quotes'.
If men could get pregnant, {*word*59} would be a sacrament.
        -- Gloria Steinhem

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


In article <30F72E43....@ix.netcom.com>
           steel...@ix.netcom.com "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes:

Quote
> Tom Wheeley wrote:
> >True, a business would
> > think nothing of spending $800 on Delphi for its programmers, but in the home
> > market that is _way_ overpriced.  I agree with that $200 and $500.

> Hmm. Could it be, perhaps, that Delphi isnt' being marketed to the
> home market? Just maybe...

Well, then Borland are to be derided if they don't do a Turbo Delphi.

Quote

> Jonathan W. Hendry      Steel Driving Software, Inc.
> Delphi and NeXTSTEP consulting and software development.

Hmm, it's alright for some... <no, not bitter... ;)>
--
* TQ 1.0 * Stolen Sigs!
los alamos national laboratory
"As a matter of fact,  I am a rocket scientist."
[wa...@pcjiw.lampf.lanl.gov]

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


Quote
Casey Charlton (ca...@larouss.demon.co.uk) wrote:

: On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 23:00:03 -0500, "Jonathan W. Hendry"

Quote
: <steel...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
:>Tom Wheeley wrote:

:>>True, a business would
:>>think nothing of spending $800 on Delphi for its programmers, but in the home
: >> market that is _way_ overpriced.  I agree with that $200 and $500.
: >
: >Hmm. Could it be, perhaps, that Delphi isnt' being marketed to the
: >home market? Just maybe...
: Then,
: a) why pitch it against VB ?

Because VB is mostly used in business?

: b) why aim a significant pportion of your advertising at home or
: low-end users ?

What advertising would this be? I wasn't aware that homes are
big client-server application users.

: c) why produce a package that does not have the backup that any
: self-respecting business would demand ?

Which appears to be pretty much the same support that all software
companies give.

Okay, here's a question. What kind of support do you expect from
Borland? What kind of price would you pay for Delphi, if that support
were available?

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


In article <30F72E43....@ix.netcom.com>,
Jonathan W. Hendry <steel...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Quote
>Tom Wheeley wrote:
>>True, a business would
>> think nothing of spending $800 on Delphi for its programmers, but in the
>> home market that is _way_ overpriced.  I agree with that $200 and $500.
>Hmm. Could it be, perhaps, that Delphi isnt' being marketed to the
>home market? Just maybe...

Hmm. Could it be, perhaps, that Tom's point was that while Delphi is being
_marketed_ to the home market, it is not being _priced_ to the to the home
market? Just maybe ...

Delphi is marketed as a VB replacment. And VB is certainly marketed to the
home and buisness markets.

Michael

--
     Michael L. Kaufman      | Everything should be made as simple as possible,
      kauf...@mcs.com        | but not simpler.
 http://www.mcs.net/~kaufman |                                  Albert Einstein

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


Quote
Tom Wheeley <t...@tsys.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <30F72E43....@ix.netcom.com>
>           steel...@ix.netcom.com "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes:

>> Tom Wheeley wrote:
>> >True, a business would
>> > think nothing of spending $800 on Delphi for its programmers, but in the home
>> > market that is _way_ overpriced.  I agree with that $200 and $500.

>> Hmm. Could it be, perhaps, that Delphi isnt' being marketed to the
>> home market? Just maybe...

>Well, then Borland are to be derided if they don't do a Turbo Delphi.

Apparently the upgrade price for Delphi Desktop will be <= $200

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Re:Pricing for Delphi32


On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 23:00:03 -0500, "Jonathan W. Hendry"

Quote
<steel...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Tom Wheeley wrote:
>>True, a business would
>> think nothing of spending $800 on Delphi for its programmers, but in the home
>> market that is _way_ overpriced.  I agree with that $200 and $500.

>Hmm. Could it be, perhaps, that Delphi isnt' being marketed to the
>home market? Just maybe...

Then,
a) why pitch it against VB ?
b) why aim a significant pportion of your advertising at home or
low-end users ?
c) why produce a package that does not have the backup that any
self-respecting business would demand ?

Quote
>Jonathan W. Hendry  Steel Driving Software, Inc.
>Delphi and NeXTSTEP consulting and software development.
>Cincinnati, Ohio

---------------------------------
Casey Charlton
ca...@larouss.demon.co.uk

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


On 15 Jan 1996 13:46:16 GMT, jon@heinlein (Jonathan Hendry) wrote:
Quote
>: a) why pitch it against VB ?

>Because VB is mostly used in business?

Wrong.

Most of VB's customers are home or small business users.  Beyond a
certain point big business switches to C++ or any one of a hundred
other professional development systems.

Quote
>: b) why aim a significant pportion of your advertising at home or
>: low-end users ?

>What advertising would this be? I wasn't aware that homes are
>big client-server application users.

Most of Delphi's advertising is pitched directly against VB, and is
for the low-end Desktop version of Delphi.  Client/Server Delphi is
almost never advertised.

Quote
>: c) why produce a package that does not have the backup that any
>: self-respecting business would demand ?

>Which appears to be pretty much the same support that all software
>companies give.

>Okay, here's a question. What kind of support do you expect from
>Borland? What kind of price would you pay for Delphi, if that support
>were available?

If they were to match MS's support then I would be prepared to pay MS
prices - as they are already priced higher than MS I can't see them
adding a support structure to Delphi AND reducing their price.
---------------------------------
Casey Charlton
ca...@larouss.demon.co.uk

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


wrote:
Quote

> r...@redwood.nl (Rob J. Nauta) writes:
> > "Jonathan W. Hendry" <steel...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> > >Doug Clark wrote:
> > ->
> > -> I just called Borland to find out when Delphi32 was going to be
> > -> released, and the pricing.  This was the information they gave me:
> > ->
> > -> Release date: March 1st.
> > ->
> > -> Pricing:
> > -> Delphi Desktop: $499.95
> > -> Delphi Developer: $799.99
> > -> Delphi C/S: $1999.95
> > ->
> > -> I was surprised at the first two numbers.  I was hoping the first
> > -> would be <$200 and the second would be <$500.  So much for getting
> > -> Delphi in the hands of the people...

> > >Delphi will get into the hands of plenty of people. $500 is a
> > >couple days work for the typical developer. It ought to save that
> > >much time, compared to, say Visual C++ or VB.

> > For the professional developer, yes. For the average VB buyer: the
> > PC owner at home who wants to start programming, this is clearly
> > out of their spending range. Will someone who writes a small utility
> > and releases it as shareware really make $800 to justify the Developer
> > release ?

> > >Seem like decent prices to me. Borland's a business, not a charity.
> > >They've got an excellent product which rivals products much more
> > >expensive (like NeXTSTEP, which costs $5,000).

> > But don't forget Borland's own history with Turbo Pascal. OK, this is
> > a much more complete package, but Borland started with good, affordable
> > products (less than $100) that got millions buying it, people that
> > normally wouldn't buy a compiler. This way you're only preaching to
> > the already converted.

>  I dont know about inflation in the rest of the world but here in Australia
> when TP was $100 a family car was $7500 today the same type car costs $30000
> an it doesnt compare to the leap that you find between TP and Delphi.
>  As far as $US800 is concerned that is for developers the 'Casual programmer
> can save $US300 buying Delphi desktop. If Australian pricing is similar to the
> US then VB is no cheaper.Delphi Desktop will cost $499 if you don't have anything.  The

competitive upgrade price(if you have VB or something) is $200.  If you
bought Delphi 1.0(not client/server), it is $149.  If you are a student,
Delphi Desktop costs $79.  To verify this, check Borland's
website(http://www.borland.com).  Their latest press release has this
info(except for the educational price, which I got by calling them).

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


Quote
Casey Charlton (ca...@larouss.demon.co.uk) wrote:

: On 15 Jan 1996 13:46:16 GMT, jon@heinlein (Jonathan Hendry) wrote:
: >: a) why pitch it against VB ?
: >
: >Because VB is mostly used in business?
: Wrong.

I'm sure there's lots of people noodling on VB at home. Fine.

: Most of VB's customers are home or small business users.  Beyond a
: certain point big business switches to C++ or any one of a hundred
: other professional development systems.

VB certainly is used at large businesses. My current client, a
manufacturing firm, is evaluating it. A former client, a $150 Billion
investment bank, was doing a lot with it. Large businesses write small
programs, too.

Large businesses use the system that fits the requirements. So should small
businesses.

: >: b) why aim a significant pportion of your advertising at home or
: >: low-end users ?
: >
: >What advertising would this be? I wasn't aware that homes are
: >big client-server application users.
: Most of Delphi's advertising is pitched directly against VB, and is
: for the low-end Desktop version of Delphi.  Client/Server Delphi is
: almost never advertised.

Funny, but all the ads I've ever seen for Delphi mention both versions. The
two I have here do.

All the ads I've ever seen talk about client-server development (which you
don't need Delphi C/S to do). One says 'Blow Through Your Backlog'. Do
you know many home users who have to deal with a backlog of unwritten
applications?

The ad compares Delphi, Powerbuilder, and VB Pro.

Hell, NeXTSTEP is, in some ways, competing in the client-server market.
Does that mean that NeXTSTEP is being marketed to home users, because
VB is? Powerbuilder is marketed to VB users. Does that mean Powerbuilder
is marketed to home users? Hardly.

: >: c) why produce a package that does not have the backup that any
: >: self-respecting business would demand ?
: >
: >Which appears to be pretty much the same support that all software
: >companies give.
: >
: >Okay, here's a question. What kind of support do you expect from
: >Borland? What kind of price would you pay for Delphi, if that support
: >were available?

: If they were to match MS's support then I would be prepared to pay MS
: prices - as they are already priced higher than MS I can't see them
: adding a support structure to Delphi AND reducing their price.

Unfortunately, Borland isn't able to spend 'Bob' revenue to beef up
support. Nor are they able to spread support organization costs over
as many products. They cannot make support as cheap as Microsoft, for
simple economic reasons.

Likewise, they cannot charge VB loss-leader prices, for similar
reasons.

Frankly, it all comes down to the fact that Delphi has real objects,
whereas Microsoft wouldn't know an object if it bit them on the ass.
They also cannot design worth shit. I see no good reason to encourage
them to continue putting out {*word*99}, by buying VB, which would also
be extremely painful for me to develop on. I've used VB. It's not
an experience I care to repeat.

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


Quote
Kevin Woolley <k...@stirling.ac.uk> wrote:
>Apparently the upgrade price for Delphi Desktop will be <= $200

Yes, but don't forget that the real upgrade from 1.0/1.02 Desktop version
will be to the Developer version - *not* the desktop version. If you
upgrade to the desktop version, it is my understanding that you will lose
some functionality. Sounds a lot like a bait'n'switch to me. 'Course I
could be wrong. Anybody?

Alan

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


Jon : I strongly suspect that your address needs fixing.

Quote
>Path: ... !uhog.mit.edu!news.intercon.com!news.iac.net!heinlein!jon
>From: jon@heinlein (Jonathan Hendry)

--
Dr John Stockton, Surrey, UK -- J...@merlyn.demon.co.uk -- SNews & PCElm

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


Quote
Alan Popow (alpo...@io.org) wrote:

: Kevin Woolley <k...@stirling.ac.uk> wrote:

: >Apparently the upgrade price for Delphi Desktop will be <= $200

: Yes, but don't forget that the real upgrade from 1.0/1.02 Desktop version
: will be to the Developer version - *not* the desktop version. If you
: upgrade to the desktop version, it is my understanding that you will lose
: some functionality. Sounds a lot like a bait'n'switch to me. 'Course I
: could be wrong. Anybody?

Bait and switch would be if, when you called to upgrade, they said
"Sorry, we're fresh out of Desktop. I've got plenty of Developer, though".

On the other hand, Developer also includes more than the current
desktop version. Pay less, lose some. Pay more get some. Sounds
fair.

Re:Pricing for Delphi32


Quote
In article <4dj6ir$...@cheyenne.iac.net> jon@heinlein (Jonathan Hendry) writes:
>Unfortunately, Borland isn't able to spend 'Bob' revenue to beef up
>support. Nor are they able to spread support organization costs over
>as many products. They cannot make support as cheap as Microsoft, for
>simple economic reasons.
>Likewise, they cannot charge VB loss-leader prices, for similar
>reasons.
>Frankly, it all comes down to the fact that Delphi has real objects,
>whereas Microsoft wouldn't know an object if it bit them on the ass.
>They also cannot design worth shit. I see no good reason to encourage
>them to continue putting out {*word*99}, by buying VB, which would also
>be extremely painful for me to develop on. I've used VB. It's not
>an experience I care to repeat.

We've seen a big drop in the price of software from many companies, and one in
particular -- no doubt about that.  Part of this comes from selling huge
volumes; part of it comes from having a lot of products across a broad
spectrum of the market; but MOST of it comes from being the sole vendor of the
operating system that everybody uses, and therefore, must buy.

Borland is not in that position.  But they -do- and -did- produce incredible
programmer's tools that will have a strong economic impact on the products,
now in development, that use them.  This means they can be in business for a
long time to come ... IF they remain focused on their market, and IF they
price their products so that they make profits on each sale, and IF they pay
attention to what their own balance-sheet says they must do, rather than that
of their competitors.

Nothing like near-bankruptcy to preach the gospel to senior executives.  I
think they learned.  The world is full of the rusty hulks of companies that
produced great software and went bust doing it, or got gulped up in some
conglomerate and lost their identity.  I really don't want to see Borland
among their number ... and with Delphi and InterBase, I don't think we will.

/mr/

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