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Outsourcing


2004-12-24 05:27:28 PM
delphi222
I am based in the UK. There is a possibility of some Delphi work being
out-sourced to a company in Turkey.
I think that this consideration hasn't been thought through enough. For
example, are the Turkish copyright laws different to our UK laws? What
about intellectual copyright laws? Then ofcourse there is the time
difference, cultural differences, language, etc.
The problem is that I do not have any knowledge of Turkish law. I would
appreciate any information any of you could share or point me to. Not only
law though, any other issues which I may not even have taken into
consideration.
I want to make sure that this decision only takes place after all
considerations have been investigated.
Thanks
--
Pete
====
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www.droopyeyes.com
Read or write articles on just about anything
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Re:Outsourcing

Peter Morris [Air Software Ltd] writes:
Quote
I am based in the UK. There is a possibility of some Delphi work
being out-sourced to a company in Turkey.
Whether it is offshore or onshore, the problems with outsourcing are all
to do with Project Management. it is fine when everything's going
smoothly - but as soon as something doesn't work, or over-runs its
schedule, then the disputes start. Suddenly, what looked like a cheap
option can becomes a nightmare.
That's the big reason why several UK companies are bringing IT back in
house, or at least limiting what they send abroad to very closely
managed, well defined chunks. They have found that they no longer have
a friendly programmer on tap to fix things up, magically change things
when the business process changes, etc.
'Language' will be a problem with Turkey. that is one of the reasons
that India is so popular for outsourcing - most people speak English
there as a second language.
As far as intellectual property, copyright, etc. Don't assume that the
law will give you anything. Everything must be spelt out in the
contract.
Also, you will probably be responsible for providing them with
registered copies of development tools, hardware, etc. And their local
'Customs & Excise' can make that expensive too. It ended costing us
thousands of pounds to provide our Indian developpers with the
particular hand-held RF printer we wanted to use. Even the cable (used
for configuration) was heavily taxed.
--
Colin - Author of XanaNews
 

Re:Outsourcing

Quote
I am based in the UK. There is a possibility of some Delphi work being
out-sourced to a company in Turkey.
Did you consider central Europe? Hungary, Poland, etc.? They are in the
EU (so EU copyright law is more consistent with the UK) and currently
still request lower rates (but higher than Turkey I'd assume). Many
IT people there also speak English.
But before you think it is cheaper, if you have not done so already, maybe
see who locally wants to work within your desired budget :
www.jobserve.com/Homepage.aspx
Kevin
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: www.opera.com/m2/
 

Re:Outsourcing

I've been involved in some out-source projects done in India. Every single
one of these projects involved someone at the company to go there multiple
times. Sometimes, the length of stay can be quite long. It appears to be
extremely necessary to be their to make sure the job gets done right.
However, with that said, the development costs are much lower and speed of
development does seem to be quicker - BUT I'd say that this depends
entirely on the project and how well the out-sourcer is organised and how
many people are put onto the project.
But you do need to to properly supervise the development yourselves. And I
do mean properly.
best regards
 

Re:Outsourcing

Not really :-)
I am looking for reasons for the company in question *not* to out source to
another development company.
--
Pete
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, FastStrings
www.droopyeyes.com
Read or write articles on just about anything
www.HowToDoThings.com
My blog
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/
 

Re:Outsourcing

"Peter Morris [Air Software Ltd]"
<XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote
Quote
The problem is that I do not have any knowledge of Turkish law. I would
appreciate any information any of you could share or point me to. Not
only
law though, any other issues which I may not even have taken into
consideration.
You are likely to get more reliable information from a lawyer specializing
in that kind of stuff. But also note that law is one thing, enforcement is
another.
Turkey to me is a curious choice for outsourcing for I cannot imagine it
being cheaper than India while sharing the same problems and more.
 

Re:Outsourcing

"somebody" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Turkey to me is a curious choice for outsourcing for I cannot imagine it
being cheaper than India while sharing the same problems and more.
Do you have enough information ? Why do you think outsourcing to Turkey will
led more problems ?
Gokhan Ersumer
Turkey
 

Re:Outsourcing

"Peter Morris [Air Software Ltd]"
<XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
I am based in the UK. There is a possibility of some Delphi work being
out-sourced to a company in Turkey.
Good news for me :)
Quote
I think that this consideration hasn't been thought through enough. For
example, are the Turkish copyright laws different to our UK laws? What
about intellectual copyright laws? Then ofcourse there is the time
difference, cultural differences, language, etc.
I dont know UK laws and I am certainly sure they are different but written
with same intention.
time difference: +2 hr is not much.
cultural differences: not much in professional manner. I would consider only if
you want to be a close friend of this guys :)
language : dont judge by my poor English please, there are many guys in
Turkey speaking English better than me :)
Quote
The problem is that I do not have any knowledge of Turkish law. I would
appreciate any information any of you could share or point me to. Not
only
law though, any other issues which I may not even have taken into
consideration.
You may consider get professional help from a Turkish lawyer about copyright
laws.
IMO, like some others said, project management is more important than
differences (time,culture etc.) in your situation. If you think this company
would meet your requirements I recommend them.
Gokhan Ersumer
Turkey
 

Re:Outsourcing

John Jacobson writes:
Quote

Outsourcing to incompetents
Outsourcing does not imply incompetence, any more than in-house
development guarantees competence.
-Danny
--
Delphi Compiler Core: blogs.borland.com/dcc
 

Re:Outsourcing

Danny Thorpe writes:
Quote
John Jacobson writes:

>Outsourcing to incompetents

Outsourcing does not imply incompetence, any more than in-house
development guarantees competence.
OTOH, it has been my experience that for outsourcing to be successful
the contractor must be significantly more competant than someone who
would do the same job in-house (to make up for the lack of
communication, institutional knowledge, etc.).
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] ?Vertex Systems Corp. ?Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
How to ask questions the smart way:
www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
 

Re:Outsourcing

"Danny Thorpe" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
John Jacobson writes:

>
>Outsourcing to incompetents

Outsourcing does not imply incompetence, any more than in-house
development guarantees competence.
[True, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I said. Mine
was a qualified statement that wasn't so broad as to try and be
all-inclusive of every possibility in outsourcing, just the case where a
firm has outsourced to incompetents.]
It is a sad indictment of management-think that outsourcing to incompetents
is so prevalent these days. Outsourcing to professionals would be far more
intelligent and economic, which is why I believe that when a firm has
outsourced anything important to incompetents, it has pursued a desperate
cost-minimization strategy. Granted, incompetents don't market themselves as
such, but then neither do incompetent job-seekers. Somehow firms need to
apply a rational screening process to the selection of outsourcers just like
they do for job-seekers. That takes time and resources, but is absolutely
necessary. Hence I label it "desperate cost cutting" when a firm outsources
important things to incompetents.
This whole thing gives me a severe case of dejavu. A while back I worked at
a firm that did their email in-house and it seemed to work reasonably well.
Then the IT manager decided to outsource the email function. I asked him why
he was doing this and he replied that the firm we were outsourcing to would
provide more up-time, over 99.995% guaranteed. The reality was actually
quite different. The system was very often outright unuseable and frequently
dead for hours. So his solution was to outsource to another firm, which had
basically the same results. Finally he outsourced to a third firm and the
results were *still* the same. At this same time the firm became very cheap
and started nickle and diming us on everything, to the point it became
outright ridiculous and harmful to productivity.
I wish I could say that was an isolated case in my experience but it wasn't.
My previous ISP had outsourced their help-desk, to some firm in India
(judging from the vrey thick accent of the woman on the phone), and when my
wife needed some real support, they had her on the phone for over an hour,
without making a single bit of progress. Finally after the call had ended, I
asked my wife what the problem was, and then fixed it in a few minutes.
And the list goes on. I would be writing this post all day if I listed every
such experience I had or knew about, and I strongly suspect that I am not
alone in this regard. Yes, it is possible to outsource to professionals
instead of incompetents, but corporate America seems largely unable to
figure out how or why they ought to do that, instead auctioning off their
needs to the lowest bidder.
It is time for people to stop taking it, and start holding the
executive-decision-makers' feet to the fire when they do this.
 

Re:Outsourcing

"Craig Stuntz [TeamB]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM [a.k.a. acm.org]>wrote
in message news:4238833f$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
Danny Thorpe writes:

>John Jacobson writes:
>
>>Outsourcing to incompetents
>
>Outsourcing does not imply incompetence, any more than in-house
>development guarantees competence.

OTOH, it has been my experience that for outsourcing to be successful
the contractor must be significantly more competant than someone who
would do the same job in-house (to make up for the lack of
communication, institutional knowledge, etc.).

In our profession here in the states this is fairly true. But you will have
to concede that the primary motivation to outsourcing to third-world,
developing countries *from* the U.S. is *price*. Competence is a factor,
but probably in the decision to nix an out-sourced contractor (but that
would apply) to any situation any way.
-- d
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