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Jolyon Smith

Delphi Developer
 

Re: Turbo pricing available


2006-08-18 04:46:36 AM
delphi105
In article <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>says...
Quote
Jolyon Smith writes:

>I DON'T WANT BDS.
Then you wouldn't want to have Turbo either - it is the same thing, but
crippled :-)
I ONLY do Win32 development. that is the way it is, that is the way it
will be certainly until BDS 07 hits the streets, and possibly for longer
even than that.
Hence I don't want C#, C++ or Delphi .Net
Hence I don't want BDS
I _DO_ want Delphi for Win32 development
Hence I _DO_ want Turbo.
Is this so hard to understand?
--
Jolyon Smith
 
 
Jolyon Smith

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 04:51:58 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

In article <44e4ba70$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>says...
Quote
Dave Keighan writes:
>
 >I doubt it very much as well at $350 but there will be some and each
 >one is $350 DevCo wouldn't get otherwise.
But as I described elsewhere, if the cost for each one of these is two
others that *would've* upgraded to BDS Pro and now only upgrade to Turbo,
they *lose* money.
As I asked elsewhere - why haven't those people that are going to
upgrade to BDS done so already? They've had plenty of time!
More likely those 2 losses for every one gain are actually 2 additional
gains!
--
Jolyon Smith
 
Dave Keighan

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 04:53:38 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

Wayne,
Quote
What I see here is the idea that, no matter how cheap a product is, next year's upgrade should be a lot less. Now each of us may have different ideas on what constitutes "cheap" but at some point, a price is low enough that offering any substantial discount for next's year's upgrade ceases to be either feasible for the vendor, or a critical issue for the purchaser. If they offered Turbo for $100, do you really think you should be able to upgrade next year for just $50?
Theoretically, yes. If you set your new user price at $100 then next version they'll want a discount to move up. How many products, in the market we're talking about don't do this? Turbo is going to be the only item DevCo sells that doesn't have an UG price? How would the BDS product line users take that news if it was applied to them?
Quote
Currently, if you (as a new user) puchase BDS Pro for $1090, next year you will be able to upgrade to BDS Pro for $460. Certainly a very reasonable upgrade price. If you instead buy Turbo now, should you be able to upgrade next year to BDS Pro for the same price as current BDS Pro users? That would be a rip to BDS Pro users, would it not? Thus a fair price for a current Turbo user to upgrade to BDS Pro next year should be something more, perhaps ~$750. Therefore, staying with Turbo at $500 still represents a savings of ~$250.
If I buy Turbo now, and am happy with it, what madness would inspire me to go with BDS next release? I do get what you're saying, at least I think I do. Turbo is the entry level product, there is no upgrade path at that level - for any release. You purchase the next version at the entry level price [again] or upgrade to the BDS line ... presumably BDS-Pro. If the upgrade to BDS is still sitting close to the entry level price of Turbo - then that would be the madness that would force me to go that route. It would frustrate the hell out of me, getting a whole load of stuff I am not interested in, but that is what I would do. that is fine with me [sort of] /if/ DevCo is coming out with "Listen folks ... this is the way it is.". I know where I stand then and react within my means accordingly. <conjecture>You will get few if any of the D3 to Delphi 7 license holders to move anywhere with that tact. </conjecture>. fine with you ... fine with me too.
Quote
You may not agree that ~$500 is low enough to be a baseline at which a lesser upgrade price is feasible for them, and perhaps they will modify this somewhat yet, but some price as to become this baseline - an entry-level price that does not warrant an even lesser upgrade price.
I want the prices from Turbo Explorer to BDS Architect to be whatever it takes to maintain the health and longevity of DevCo - this has to be the primary need, it is moronic to do other wise. I want the pricing structure to provide both a logical progression from the bottom to the top while providing me with a viable and economically enticing resting place at whatever level I choose to do so. The tool itself is enough to convert [just about - we have to keep one foot in reality here] any developer at any level - the pricing structure has to get it into their hands and keep it there. If DevCo comes up with that ... we're done.
--
Dave
President & CEO
International Brotherhood of Delphi Hobbyists and Occupational Developers
 

Jolyon Smith

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 04:54:08 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

In article <44e4b44d$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>says...
Quote
That's ridiculous. When someone's perception is wildly off, you should *not*
cater to it, you should *correct* it.
They've already catered to it by resurrecting the Turbo brand.
You can not have it both ways - you can not set out to deliberately _invoke_
one perception and then turn around and tell everyone that that
persception is wrong.
(but ftr, I am perfectly well aware that Turbo Delphi.32 is just a single
personality BDS)
--
Jolyon Smith
 
Nick Hodges (Borland/DevCo)

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 04:55:15 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

Jolyon Smith writes:
Quote
Do you buy an entire box of Cadbury Roses just to eat the Caramel
Fingers and throw the rest away?
If I want the Cadbury Roses, yes.
Quote
BDS doesn't make sense for me on balance when considering the cost.
Okay, that is cool, and quite understandable.
Quote
This should be reflected in the cost.
Why? Are you arguing to pay more than you have to?
Quote
So if I am not inclined to spend $500 on BDS, I am hardly likely to
spend the same on Turbo, ami I? Even though Turbo is more directly
relevant.
What if Turbo is less?
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi/C# Product Manager - DevCo
blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
 
Jolyon Smith

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 04:55:39 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

In article <44e45454$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>says...
Quote
But the upgrade cost to BDS wasn't larger (only adjusted for inflation)
than the earlier upgrade cost Delphi x ->Delphi x+1. The extra 60% you
don't use are more or less for free!
Apples with apples please.
Don't go comparing previous upgrades of single language Delphi products
when there is no upgrade path to the current single language Delphi
product.
--
Jolyon Smith
 
Nick Hodges (Borland/DevCo)

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 04:57:16 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

Bob Dawson writes:
Quote

It's clear that DevCo needs to get specific about the purpose of
Turbo.
The purpose of Turbo is to attract new users and thus new customers to
our products.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi/C# Product Manager - DevCo
blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
 
Ralf Mimoun

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 04:59:49 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

Nick Hodges (Borland/DevCo) writes:
Quote
Ralf Mimoun writes:

>Don't write that too often - many don't want BDS, but like the Turbo
 >idea.
Okay -- understood. It doesn't make any sense at all to me, but I
hear you.
Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing ;-)
Ralf
 
Bryce K. Nielsen

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 05:04:56 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

Quote
And of all the people that have refused to upgrade for 5+ years, because
$460 (less in earlier years) is too much, are *really* going to jump all
over Turbo for $300 or $350 (or even $250 for that matter)? I really don't
believe it will be anything close to a majority of them, I would hazard, at
most, 25%, and probably a lot less.

Once again, it has *nothing* to do with cost and *everything* to do with
perception. Non-BDS users perceive that the current upgrade for BDS is not
worth their money. They don't want most of the extra features, don't need
them, and are just fine with D5/D7. Turbo Delphi is now being perceived as a
version of BDS that is just Delphi, exactly what they want. BUT the problem
is they don't want to pay *full* price for what they perceive as an upgrade.
Now, you bring up a very valid point, where's the market research in all
this. I don't have any, I am just going off of the few programmers/managers
that I have personally talked to (and share opinions with). But I bet DevCo
could do some basic research and find that there are enough who would jump
at a $300 "upgrade" price (again, perceived upgrade) to justify another
SKU...
-BKN
 
Bryce K. Nielsen

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 05:07:35 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

Quote
Having installed all four BDS versions, my memory may be fuzzy as to the
exact experience for each one. But I seem to recall the typical BDS
installation making me wait while it checked for .NET dependencies, either
requiring the installation of the .NET SDK or making it seem necessary,
etc., etc. And I also remember the latest BDS had three installation CDs.

So, there may be an appeal for Win32 Delphi programmers to install from a
single CD, and to not need to be prompted to install the .NET SDK and
other stuff they don't think they want or need.

Turbo isn't going to change that though. The *IDE* requires DotNet for
various features, so these checks will remain...
-BKN
 
Bryce K. Nielsen

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 05:08:50 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

Quote
I was hoping for something along the lines of "Turbo has <whatever>,
BDS doesn't have <whatever>, and I prefer Turbo because <whatever>"

Simple:
Turbo has Delphi, only Delphi, BDS has other languages I am never going to
use, and I prefer Turbo because it is JUST Delphi (Win32 mind you).
-BKN
 
Bryce K. Nielsen

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 05:10:06 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

Quote
How can you say existing users are getting a raw deal when they can get
*full* BDS Pro for less than a new user can buy a *single language* Turbo?

Because existing uses DON'T WANT *full* BDS, they only want Delphi, and as
an "upgrade" they feel they should get it cheaper than buying a brand new
license of TurboD...
-BKN
 
Bob Dawson

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 05:11:57 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

"Dave Keighan" wrote
each one is $350 DevCo wouldn't get otherwise.
No, some proportion are, and some proportion (potentially a much greater
proportion) would be lost D2006 or Highlander upgrades.
It's clear that DevCo needs to get specific about the purpose of Turbo.
To my way of thinking, the point is to remove the $1000 entry barrier for
new DevCo customers, with a single-language product costing about the same
price as existing customers pay for the full product. These customers would
then be eligible to upgrade to the next full version of BDS as upgraders,
and never have to pay the full retail BDS price. That implies that Borland
need never establish a Turbo upgrade price--only an upgrade price from Turbo
to BDS.
I understand to a certain extent the feeling that "I'm a loyal customer, I
should get a price break over a new guy"--but I don't agree with it. I'd
like all non-DevCo developers to be able to get the same great language I
use at the same price I do. Building fences against new users by charging
them twice as much is just as silly as charging existing users more by
offering "newcomers only" prices. The product should cost what it costs.
But what about the argument that a new user is really getting less because
of the version he already has? Address that with a subscription (SA)
program. If you really want to be treated like a loyal customer, then don't
haul out some CD five versions back and expect upgrade pricing.
bobD
 
Bryce K. Nielsen

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 05:13:21 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

Quote
What I see here is the idea that, no matter how cheap a product is, next
year's upgrade should be a lot less. Now each of us may have different
ideas on what constitutes "cheap" but at some point, a price is low enough
that offering any substantial discount for next's year's upgrade ceases to
be either feasible for the vendor, or a critical issue for the purchaser.
If they offered Turbo for $100, do you really think you should be able to
upgrade next year for just $50?

Which is the whole problem. A lot of non-BDS users *perceive* that TurboD is
an upgrade from D7, and so *expect* some kind of upgrade pricing for them.
Since none exists, they will stay with Delphi 7 and never upgrade (or most likely
will upgrade to VS2006, which is another problem for DevCo).
-BKN
 
Nick Hodges (Borland/DevCo)

Delphi Developer

2006-08-18 05:17:00 AM

Re: Turbo pricing available

Nick Hodges (Borland/DevCo) writes:
Quote
If I want the Cadbury Roses, yes.
I should have said "If I want the caramels, and that is the way to get
them, yes".
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi/C# Product Manager - DevCo
blogs.borland.com/nickhodges