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Delphi IDE - Why .Net?


2007-06-22 12:40:17 PM
delphi172
Hi,
Maybe this has been answered before, or maybe I have no idea on the subject
(quite possible <g>), but I have just been reading through the "Downgrading to
D7" thread with some interest. (As I am using Delphi 7 and was considering
upgrading to D2007)...
From what I can gather, many Delphi developers appear to be developing for
the Win32 platform, and it seems that .NET still has some things to prove in
order to convince many to change over. From what I can gather todate, it
contains bugs, and performance issues (over the native Win32 platform).
So - (if this is correct), why did Borland opt to go with .Net for the
Delphi IDE platform? It seems to me that maybe some of the issues (such as
performance, and maybe bugs (?) might have something to do with the fact
that Dxxxx runs on a .NET platform, instead of the native Win32 platform.
Not trying to throw sticks and stones, just trying to understand (as I'm
thinking that I have missed something here, and would like to catch up <g>)
Cheers
Adam.
 
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

Hi,
Take in consideration that some people just like to make noise and cry for
everything, my Delphi 2007 is way more stable and feature rich than my D7, only
weak point is the help. But other than that it makes total sense for
CodeGear to reuse their existing code i.e. refactoring (Java ->J# PrimeOne
IDE) and to take advantage of lots of functionality available in the .Net
framework.
Plus, there is a lot of us that do need a web tool and ASP.Net is our
option. For Windows rich clients, yeah hands down, Winforms has nothing to
do with VCL. So re-doing all that on Win32, its for me unnecessary.
Honestly I am quiet happy with my Delphi 2007 and CANT wait to have highlander.
"Adam H." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Hi,

Maybe this has been answered before, or maybe I have no idea on the
subject (quite possible <g>), but I have just been reading through the
"Downgrading to D7" thread with some interest. (As I am using Delphi 7 and was
considering upgrading to D2007)...

From what I can gather, many Delphi developers appear to be developing for
the Win32 platform, and it seems that .NET still has some things to prove
in order to convince many to change over. From what I can gather todate,
it contains bugs, and performance issues (over the native Win32 platform).

So - (if this is correct), why did Borland opt to go with .Net for the
Delphi IDE platform? It seems to me that maybe some of the issues (such as
performance, and maybe bugs (?) might have something to do with the fact
that Dxxxx runs on a .NET platform, instead of the native Win32 platform.

Not trying to throw sticks and stones, just trying to understand (as I'm
thinking that I have missed something here, and would like to catch up <g>)

Cheers

Adam.

 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

"Adam H." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
So - (if this is correct), why did Borland opt to go with .Net for the
Delphi IDE platform? It seems to me that maybe some of the issues (such as
performance, and maybe bugs (?) might have something to do with the fact
that Dxxxx runs on a .NET platform, instead of the native Win32 platform.
Imagine you are a compiler company whose meal ticket is supporting Microsoft
technologies. Microsoft announces a major technology platform *and* tells
you that is where your future will be. They even talk of implementing
Windows in .NET!
So you make your compiler target .NET. You support C#. You build shared
.NET / native modules with .NET so you can migrate futher toward 100% .NET.
Perfectly logical. If you do nothing, you *might* have no business in a few
years.
Hindsight has perfect vision.
Roger Lascelles
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

Uffe Kousgaard writes:
Quote
It is only a few (non-key) parts of the IDE that use .NET. If you
disable those packages, you can in fact remove .NET again. The Delphi
IDE is still 99% win32.
This isn't true for D2007. It relies on .NET more than ever, to the
extent that without .NET it can not even create or open projects.
However D2006 and Turbo Delphi work well without .NET (except that the
de{*word*81} will be partially broken and ActiveX stuff won't work).
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

Adam H. writes:
Quote
Maybe this has been answered before, or maybe I have no idea on the
subject (quite possible <g>), but I have just been reading through the
"Downgrading to D7" thread with some interest. (As I am using Delphi 7 and
was considering upgrading to D2007)...
I have gone further, downgraded to D5. Delphi 7 is fast, but D5 is a f*cking
rocket. After the CnWizards magic, it enjoys the same cool features
such as the modified properties in bold in the Object Inspector, and
the advanced CodeInsight. It is also more solid, IME.
Porting the source code was easy, basically remove the Variants unit
from the uses and little more.
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

Quote
So - (if this is correct), why did Borland opt to go with .Net for the
Delphi IDE platform? It seems to me that maybe some of the issues (such as
performance, and maybe bugs (?) might have something to do with the fact
that Dxxxx runs on a .NET platform, instead of the native Win32 platform.
Because it seemed a good idea at the time probably.
3 or 4 years ago, Microsoft was really hyping .NET as the future
of almost literally everything. There were rumours that
the next OS would be .NET-based, Office would be re-written
in .NET, etc...
Borland just jumped on the bandwagon along with a lot of
other people.
IMHO .NET offers no real advantages to Delphi developers who develop
desktop apps. It is a huge leap forward for VB(Visual Basic) developers however.
And end-users gain nothing at all - whether an app is .NET
based is irrelevant to the end-user's experience of it.
So we shouldn't really mind that the Delphi IDE requires .NET
(note that the IDE is not a .NET app - it hosts .NET rather
than runs on top of it). it is just a shame that the new IDE
isn't as snappy and responsive as the old one.
Cheers,
Chris
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

"Chris Morgan" writes:
Quote

Because it seemed a good idea at the time probably.
3 or 4 years ago, Microsoft was really hyping .NET as the future
of almost literally everything. There were rumours that
the next OS would be .NET-based, Office would be re-written
in .NET, etc...
And now we know where those wild and woolly rumors emanated from. For
example I must say I have never before now heard the rumor that Office was
going to be re-written in .NET. Lots of folks have asked why isn't it going
to be re-written in .NET but that is yet another story that has kinda the
same ending as why CodeGear doesn't re-write their IDE to eliminate the .NET
part. :)
Quote
Borland just jumped on the bandwagon along with a lot of
other people.

IMHO .NET offers no real advantages to Delphi developers who develop
desktop apps. It is a huge leap forward for VB(Visual Basic) developers however.
Somehow those hordes of VB(Visual Basic) developers haven't been convinced to jump on the
Delphi Win32 native code bandwagon.
Quote
So we shouldn't really mind that the Delphi IDE requires .NET
(note that the IDE is not a .NET app - it hosts .NET rather
than runs on top of it). it is just a shame that the new IDE
isn't as snappy and responsive as the old one.
Anybody know what's wrong with a justification that starts out saying "So we
shouldn't really mind" and quickly jumps to "It's just a shame ...."? ;-)
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

Adam H. writes:
Quote
So - (if this is correct), why did Borland opt to go with .Net for the
Delphi IDE platform? It seems to me that maybe some of the issues (such as
performance, and maybe bugs (?) might have something to do with the fact
that Dxxxx runs on a .NET platform, instead of the native Win32 platform.
Because some people know when to use the right tools for the right job,
regardless of what the vocal minority spout on the newsgroups.
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

Quote
I have gone further, downgraded to D5.
Don't stop! Go down to D2 and get rid of all that COM {*word*99}! Or, hell,
why not D1? Win32 is a load of bloatware after all... no, hang on, it's
the VCL - get back to TP/Win 1.5! Hmm... but then you still have the
lumbering beast that is Windows... Back to TP 6! But then there's that
OOP bloat... So, why not downgrade to TP 1 and be done with it?
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

"I.P. Nichols" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
"Chris Morgan" writes:
>
>Because it seemed a good idea at the time probably.
>3 or 4 years ago, Microsoft was really hyping .NET as the future
>of almost literally everything. There were rumours that
>the next OS would be .NET-based, Office would be re-written
>in .NET, etc...

And now we know where those wild and woolly rumors emanated from. For
example I must say I have never before now heard the rumor that Office was
going to be re-written in .NET. Lots of folks have asked why isn't it
going to be re-written in .NET but that is yet another story that has kinda
the same ending as why CodeGear doesn't re-write their IDE to eliminate
the .NET part. :)

>Borland just jumped on the bandwagon along with a lot of
>other people.
>
>IMHO .NET offers no real advantages to Delphi developers who develop
>desktop apps. It is a huge leap forward for VB(Visual Basic) developers however.

Somehow those hordes of VB(Visual Basic) developers haven't been convinced to jump on
the Delphi Win32 native code bandwagon.

>So we shouldn't really mind that the Delphi IDE requires .NET
>(note that the IDE is not a .NET app - it hosts .NET rather
>than runs on top of it). it is just a shame that the new IDE
>isn't as snappy and responsive as the old one.

Anybody know what's wrong with a justification that starts out saying "So
we shouldn't really mind" and quickly jumps to "It's just a shame ...."?
;-)
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

"I.P. Nichols" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
"Chris Morgan" writes:
>
>Because it seemed a good idea at the time probably.
>3 or 4 years ago, Microsoft was really hyping .NET as the future
>of almost literally everything. There were rumours that
>the next OS would be .NET-based, Office would be re-written
>in .NET, etc...

And now we know where those wild and woolly rumors emanated from. For
example I must say I have never before now heard the rumor that Office was
going to be re-written in .NET.
There was lots of FUD around at the time (when isn't there?).
Borland fell for it, the same as lots of others.
Quote
>IMHO .NET offers no real advantages to Delphi developers who develop
>desktop apps. It is a huge leap forward for VB(Visual Basic) developers however.

Somehow those hordes of VB(Visual Basic) developers haven't been convinced to jump on
the Delphi Win32 native code bandwagon.
No, but they have moved to VS.NET or C#.NET, for 3 reasons:
1. because MS don't offer an alternative upgrade path
2. because VB.NET development is better than VB(Visual Basic) development
3. because they didn't know about Delphi, and even if they did, the
effort involved in porting all their existing VB(Visual Basic) code to Delphi
would outweigh the effort in porting all their existing VB(Visual Basic) code
to VB.NET
Quote
>So we shouldn't really mind that the Delphi IDE requires .NET
>(note that the IDE is not a .NET app - it hosts .NET rather
>than runs on top of it). it is just a shame that the new IDE
>isn't as snappy and responsive as the old one.

Anybody know what's wrong with a justification that starts out saying "So
we shouldn't really mind" and quickly jumps to "It's just a shame ...."?
;-)
I have nothing against the new IDE in theory.
And I don't have a problem with .NET - Once it is installed, it just
sits there silently. It doesn't interfere with anything else I have
installed, so I don't mind it.
I don't know whether the sluggishness of the new Delphi IDE is due to
.NET, or whether it is due to the parallel background compilation
of the code for code-completion/structure views/whatever.
I'm not trying to justify anything, just giving my views on
the original question of whether .NET is hot or not.
Cheers,
Chris
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

I'd say background, definitely background. Get a project with thousands
of files added to it, then try to type in code. From time to time, it
will just freeze and the log window will fill up with warnings...
--
Olivier Sannier
JVCL Coordinator
jvcl.sf.net/
Find more about me on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/obones
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

"Chris Morgan" <chris.nospam at lynxinfo dot co dot uk>wrote
Quote
Because it seemed a good idea at the time probably.
3 or 4 years ago, Microsoft was really hyping .NET as the future
of almost literally everything. There were rumours that
the next OS would be .NET-based, Office would be re-written
in .NET, etc...
It never seemed like a good idea, and everyone with a comp. sci background
said that it was impossible to have a .net-based OS, everyone with industry
insight said that rewriting things into C# was not feasible, etc. etc. Hype,
that was all it was, and most understood it for the hype it was.
Quote
Borland just jumped on the bandwagon along with a lot of
other people.
I doubt that Borland did that because they didn't see through the hype.
Borland might have done that due to the fact that Microsoft is a main
shareholder.
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

Quote
I'd say background, definitely background. Get a project with thousands of
files added to it, then try to type in code. From time to time, it will
just freeze and the log window will fill up with warnings...
Yes I agree. I have turned off a lot of the code completion features,
but if you turn off everything, you may as well be developing in
Notepad!
But is it a .NET background thread, or a native background thread?
It's implementation, not the platform used, which causes the slowdowm.
Cheers,
Chris
 

Re:Delphi IDE - Why .Net?

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:40:17 -0400, Adam H.
<XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
So - (if this is correct), why did Borland opt to go with .Net for the
Delphi IDE platform? It seems to me that maybe some of the issues (such
as performance, and maybe bugs (?) might have something to do with the
fact
that Dxxxx runs on a .NET platform, instead of the native Win32 platform.
You can not assume that technical decisions are made solely upon technical
merit. Remember that the refactoring engine and modeling engine in Delphi
now are based upon Together, which, if my facts are correct, was
originally Java, then ported to J#, and now included in Delphi a .net
piece. That might have given us some great modeling and refactoring
abilities that didn't have to be developed from scratch because they were
acquired with the Together product. The downside is that their
performance is compromised by being a .net technology. When you're low on
resources and/or you have a corporate entity pointing on a settled
direction for the product lines, you see this kind of synergy and it is not
always a great thing.
I *think* the CodeDOM is also .net based but I am not sure about my facts
there.
At any rate, there was some leverage on the development side by
incorporating .net-written pieces into the IDE that would have been
prohibitively expensive to write from scratch as native code. The
leverage was there, so they used it.
If I had my druthers, the refactoring and modeling engines would be ripped
out and replaced by native code equivalents. I'd love to see
Modelmaker fully integrated into the IDE and refactoring done without .net
if at all possible. But those, I gotta believe, are WAY down there on the
priority list, even if someone thinks they are a good idea.
Randy