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HELP: Please help, what client-tool to use for developing client-server applications?

Prior of buying, and most of all dedicated to one client tool for
developing client-server applications, I would like the comments of
users who already have the experience of more than one to make a
comparison among them.

In my company we are thinking of moving from our COBOL legacy system
to client-server. Observed several rdbms, and settled to Oracle or
Sybase, because they have good support here in Greece. The problem
aroused for the tools. Oracle wants to use their products
(developer2000 and designer2000) which seems good at spec, but we have
heard numerous things for them (they GPF, they are heavy, they are
slow etc) but one main thing that made us give a second thought, it
was their price, which is very expensive (at least here in Greece,
where salaries are too slow compared to US for example). On the other
end, Sybase moves its Powerbuilder, for which I heard also same things
as an immature product too, and slow. In usenet several users propose
other products (Delphi, Jam etc) which makes the situtation even worse
for us to decide. We are only two (2) developers, and our budget is
low, so we can't afford the money and most of all the time, to test
every possible platform (or even some of them) before we decide. And
because the time invested on one tool, plus the money for education on
this would be too much to later abandon,

WE WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE !!!!!

We seek the opinions of developers who tried more than one of the
products (Developer2000/Designer2000, Powerbuilder/S-Designor, Delphi2
C/S, VisualBasic, Jam etc ) and can give their opinions. Some notes of
the strengths of their preferred tool that is not available on others
is highly prefered.
Also sites with documents which compare various tools would be
helpful.

Thanks in advance.

Please reply also by e-mail, because I may miss the post, due to IBM
which has a lot of problems with it's news servers the last year.

Savas Pavlidis

pavli...@ibm.net

 

Re:HELP: Please help, what client-tool to use for developing client-server applications?


Savas,

I understand your problem, and would like to contribute my opinion.

I am an independent consultant, and develop systems in many different
languages and platforms (Access, Powerbuilder, Lotus Notes, Cobol, etc.
for standalone pc's, 2 and 3-tier client/server environments).

From the tools you mentioned (Visual Basic, Delphi, Jam, PB, Oracle
Developer 2000), I have only used VB and PB, but have close associates
that have used VB and Delphi and we frequently compare notes and discuss
how these products compare and contrast.

Also, about 2 1/2 years ago I underwent a thorough analysis and research
for a client of mine who was in your exact situation:  wanting to go  to
client server and having the luxury of being able to objectively look at
all of them as real possibilities.

With all that said, I think Powerbuilder would be an excellent choice.
I have been working with this product for almost 3 years now, and it is
incredibly robust, very stable and probably the most vast GUI tool I've
ever worked with.

Then you should consider the fact that some highly respected trade
journals chose Powerbuilder 5.0 as their 1996 product of the year, over
Developer2000, Delphi and VB.

Since these experts compared all these products for us, why should we
reinvent the wheel?

I believe Powerbuilder's price/performance to be excellent, and given
the extensive examples that come with the product, you will have a
built-in tutor to help you through things as you develop your first
application...not to mention the significant online resources such as
this newsgroup.

I hope this helps, Savas.

jep...@worldnet.att.net

Re:HELP: Please help, what client-tool to use for developing client-server applications?


My personal recommendation for a low cost client-sever system is Microsoft
SQL Server running on Windows NT, with Delphi 2 as the front-end.
Microsoft Access or Visual Basic as a front end is also an OK choice if you
prefer to stay with the same company.  Compared with Oracle & Oracle 2000
combination vs Sybase SQL Server & Powerbuilder combination, the Micorsoft
solution is the most cost-effective and cheapest.  The SQL syntax of Sybase
SQL Server and Microsoft SQL Server is nearly identical (MS SQL Server was
originally the same as Sybase SQL Server, but the latest version of MS SQL
Server is better integrated with Windows NT), with Oracle SQL having it's
more distinctive syntax.  Despite all using SQL as a query language, there
are just enough differences that one has to modify querys created on one
for the other.  Writing for the lowest commom denominator doesn't work very
well, for in the real world, one will use the special features of each SQL
Server.  For example, MS & Sybase has one way of letting the server assign
unique sequential numbers, whereas Oracle has its way. Such is neccessary
in the real world. Good luck.  
Gene

Savas Pavlidis <pavli...@ibm.net> wrote in article
<3340a3e5.2011...@news2.ibm.net>...

Quote
> Prior of buying, and most of all dedicated to one client tool for
> developing client-server applications, I would like the comments of
> users who already have the experience of more than one to make a
> comparison among them.

> In my company we are thinking of moving from our COBOL legacy system
> to client-server. Observed several rdbms, and settled to Oracle or
> Sybase, because they have good support here in Greece. The problem
> aroused for the tools. Oracle wants to use their products
> (developer2000 and designer2000) which seems good at spec, but we have
> heard numerous things for them (they GPF, they are heavy, they are
> slow etc) but one main thing that made us give a second thought, it
> was their price, which is very expensive (at least here in Greece,
> where salaries are too slow compared to US for example). On the other
> end, Sybase moves its Powerbuilder, for which I heard also same things
> as an immature product too, and slow. In usenet several users propose
> other products (Delphi, Jam etc) which makes the situtation even worse
> for us to decide. We are only two (2) developers, and our budget is
> low, so we can't afford the money and most of all the time, to test
> every possible platform (or even some of them) before we decide. And
> because the time invested on one tool, plus the money for education on
> this would be too much to later abandon,

> WE WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE !!!!!

> We seek the opinions of developers who tried more than one of the
> products (Developer2000/Designer2000, Powerbuilder/S-Designor, Delphi2
> C/S, VisualBasic, Jam etc ) and can give their opinions. Some notes of
> the strengths of their preferred tool that is not available on others
> is highly prefered.
> Also sites with documents which compare various tools would be
> helpful.

> Thanks in advance.

> Please reply also by e-mail, because I may miss the post, due to IBM
> which has a lot of problems with it's news servers the last year.

> Savas Pavlidis

> pavli...@ibm.net

Re:HELP: Please help, what client-tool to use for developing client-server applications?


Quote
pavli...@ibm.net (Savas Pavlidis) wrote:
>Prior of buying, and most of all dedicated to one client tool for
>developing client-server applications, I would like the comments of
>users who already have the experience of more than one to make a
>comparison among them.
>In my company we are thinking of moving from our COBOL legacy system
>to client-server. Observed several rdbms, and settled to Oracle or
>Sybase, because they have good support here in Greece. The problem
>aroused for the tools. Oracle wants to use their products
>(developer2000 and designer2000) which seems good at spec, but we have
>heard numerous things for them (they GPF, they are heavy, they are
>slow etc) but one main thing that made us give a second thought, it
>was their price, which is very expensive (at least here in Greece,
>where salaries are too slow compared to US for example). On the other
>end, Sybase moves its Powerbuilder, for which I heard also same things
>as an immature product too, and slow. In usenet several users propose
>other products (Delphi, Jam etc) which makes the situtation even worse
>for us to decide. We are only two (2) developers, and our budget is
>low, so we can't afford the money and most of all the time, to test
>every possible platform (or even some of them) before we decide. And
>because the time invested on one tool, plus the money for education on
>this would be too much to later abandon,
>WE WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE !!!!!
>We seek the opinions of developers who tried more than one of the
>products (Developer2000/Designer2000, Powerbuilder/S-Designor, Delphi2
>C/S, VisualBasic, Jam etc ) and can give their opinions. Some notes of
>the strengths of their preferred tool that is not available on others
>is highly prefered.
>Also sites with documents which compare various tools would be
>helpful.
>Thanks in advance.
>Please reply also by e-mail, because I may miss the post, due to IBM
>which has a lot of problems with it's news servers the last year.
>Savas Pavlidis
>pavli...@ibm.net

Savas,

     I am a consultant who specializes in C/S systems. WHat I have
found over the years is that with the properly designed C/S design you
can have hte best of both worlds when it comes to front ends and
RDBMS's.

     I, as well as a few others who worked with/for me spent a full
year evaluating various front ends as well as database engines. After
this, as well as many dollars, we found this combination to stand out
the best:

        SQL Server (Either Sybase or Microsoft) - Database Engine
        Omnis 7 - Front end development
        Silver Run - CASE

     I presently have a group who continues to perform R&D on products
as they are released. The major problems we found with other systems
were:

     PowerBuilder doesn't always allow for true cross platform
functionality. It is stronger on a PC, and if developed on a PC,
doesn't have all of the functionality on a Macintosh. Coding is more
involved, taking longer to develop an application.

     Delphi - on the right track, but still has a ways to go.

     In all cases, you will have to have your developers proficient in
other languages as well, usually C++.

     With Omnis 7, yes, there is a slightly longer learning curve, but
in the past 7 years, I have needed something that wasn't built into it
twice. In both cases, I contacted individuals who specialized in
developing externals (.DLL's for PC's) and had it created. All of my
clients are Fortune 500 and above, and each one enjoys the
applications developed for them.

Steve Jimmo
sji...@tiac.net

Re:HELP: Please help, what client-tool to use for developing client-server applications?


Your observations about some of the difficulties and expense of the Oracle
tools are correct. I have programmed in several database vendors tools as
well as in Visual Basic, C, Visual C++, PowerBuilder, Access, .....

You got a strong recommendation for Powerbuilder. I have found
PowerBuilder to be a good tool, but I found the  the technical support was
bad and the product was not flexible. The main stregnth of PowerBuilder is
the datawindow. If you want an application that works exactly like their
datawindow grid, that is great. If not, it is a problem. I have found
Delphi to be easy to use, powerful, flexible, extendable, inexpensive, and
fast. I would need to know more about your application to know if it is
the ideal tool for you. but it is a good bet.
Good luck.

Quote
On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, Joe Palm wrote:
> Savas,

> Then you should consider the fact that some highly respected trade
> journals chose Powerbuilder 5.0 as their 1996 product of the year, over
> Developer2000, Delphi and VB.

> Since these experts compared all these products for us, why should we
> reinvent the wheel?

> I believe Powerbuilder's price/performance to be excellent, and given
> the extensive examples that come with the product, you will have a
> built-in tutor to help you through things as you develop your first
> application...not to mention the significant online resources such as
> this newsgroup.

> I hope this helps, Savas.

> jep...@worldnet.att.net

Re:HELP: Please help, what client-tool to use for developing client-server applications?


Quote
Savas Pavlidis wrote:

> Prior to buying, and most of all dedicated to one client tool for
> developing client-server applications, I would like the comments of
> users who already have the experience of more than one to make a
> comparison among them.

> WE WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE !!!!!

> Thanks in advance.

> Please reply also by e-mail.

> Savas Pavlidis

> pavli...@ibm.net

You may find a visit to the "Tools" section of The Client-Server
Computing Page(r) worthwhile.

        http://www.wenet.net/~jtmalone/

--
******************The Client-Server Computing Page(r)**************
 Web Sciences, Inc.           WWW: http://www.wenet.net/~jtmalone/
*******************************************************************

Re:HELP: Please help, what client-tool to use for developing client-server applications?


Quote
Savas Pavlidis wrote:

> Prior of buying, and most of all dedicated to one client tool for
> developing client-server applications, I would like the comments of
> users who already have the experience of more than one to make a
> comparison among them.

> In my company we are thinking of moving from our COBOL legacy system
> to client-server. Observed several rdbms, and settled to Oracle or
> Sybase, because they have good support here in Greece. The problem
> aroused for the tools. Oracle wants to use their products
> (developer2000 and designer2000) which seems good at spec, but we have
> heard numerous things for them (they GPF, they are heavy, they are
> slow etc) but one main thing that made us give a second thought, it
> was their price, which is very expensive (at least here in Greece,
> where salaries are too slow compared to US for example). On the other
> end, Sybase moves its Powerbuilder, for which I heard also same things
> as an immature product too, and slow. In usenet several users propose
> other products (Delphi, Jam etc) which makes the situtation even worse
> for us to decide. We are only two (2) developers, and our budget is
> low, so we can't afford the money and most of all the time, to test
> every possible platform (or even some of them) before we decide. And
> because the time invested on one tool, plus the money for education on
> this would be too much to later abandon,

> WE WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE !!!!!

> We seek the opinions of developers who tried more than one of the
> products (Developer2000/Designer2000, Powerbuilder/S-Designor, Delphi2
> C/S, VisualBasic, Jam etc ) and can give their opinions. Some notes of
> the strengths of their preferred tool that is not available on others
> is highly prefered.
> Also sites with documents which compare various tools would be
> helpful.

> Thanks in advance.

> Please reply also by e-mail, because I may miss the post, due to IBM
> which has a lot of problems with it's news servers the last year.

> Savas Pavlidis

> pavli...@ibm.net

Hi Savas,

Or is that SaveAs?

Congratulations!

You have waited so long to migrate your mainframe applications that the
older Windows/Novell client/server paradigm has passed on and been
replaced by a new one: client/server on the World Wide Web. Even
better,  client/server on the Web works in a manner very similar to the
way your mainframe apps work!

Since you have all that nice working COBOL code and you have resisted
the shift to client/server so many years, why don't you do the
reasonable thing:
  a) get MicroFocus's (or some other vendor's) web-enabled COBOL
compiler,
  b) Use Oracle if you wish, or you can get free or almost free
Relational DBMS on the web(mySQL, miniSQL, etc).
  c) migrate your legacy COBOL apps to UNIX-(LINUX is free!) or NT-based
servers running a corporate intranet.
  d) while doing this, fix your year 2000 date problems.

That way, your 2 programmers can concentrate their effort on the year
2000 problem, and you can lower your application support costs.

Unfortunately for most of us, COBOL is
  a) the de facto business language and
  b) sadly, has very good text manipulation capabilities, a requirement
for Web development.

I say "unfortunately" because we've all been busy studying C++, Java,
JavaScript, PFC, Eiffel(anyone?).

Combine this with the fact that almost everyone will find it impossible
to avoid _some_ work in COBOL due to the upcoming Year 2000
conversion(and the high wages to be paid), and you have a rather
unpalatable conclusion:

By the year 2001, most of us will be working in COBOL on web-based
applications!
Remember, you heard it first here, in comp.soft-sys.powerbuilder
Aaargh!

Good Luck,
Michael D. Kersey

Re:HELP: Please help, what client-tool to use for developing client-server applications?


Quote
Savas Pavlidis wrote:

> Prior of buying, and most of all dedicated to one client tool for
> developing client-server applications, I would like the comments of
> users who already have the experience of more than one to make a
> comparison among them.

> In my company we are thinking of moving from our COBOL legacy system
> to client-server. Observed several rdbms, and settled to Oracle or
> Sybase, because they have good support here in Greece. The problem
> aroused for the tools. Oracle wants to use their products
> (developer2000 and designer2000) which seems good at spec, but we have
> heard numerous things for them (they GPF, they are heavy, they are
> slow etc) but one main thing that made us give a second thought, it
> was their price, which is very expensive (at least here in Greece,
> where salaries are too slow compared to US for example). On the other
> end, Sybase moves its Powerbuilder, for which I heard also same things
> as an immature product too, and slow. In usenet several users propose
> other products (Delphi, Jam etc) which makes the situtation even worse
> for us to decide. We are only two (2) developers, and our budget is
> low, so we can't afford the money and most of all the time, to test
> every possible platform (or even some of them) before we decide. And
> because the time invested on one tool, plus the money for education on
> this would be too much to later abandon,

> WE WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE !!!!!

> We seek the opinions of developers who tried more than one of the
> products (Developer2000/Designer2000, Powerbuilder/S-Designor, Delphi2
> C/S, VisualBasic, Jam etc ) and can give their opinions. Some notes of
> the strengths of their preferred tool that is not available on others
> is highly prefered.
> Also sites with documents which compare various tools would be
> helpful.

> Thanks in advance.

> Please reply also by e-mail, because I may miss the post, due to IBM
> which has a lot of problems with it's news servers the last year.

> Savas Pavlidis

> pavli...@ibm.netWhile I can agree so far what Joe Palm and Gene are recommending, I

think several important topics are not discussed yet. These topics
include:
the numbers of users and transactions,
the overall size of the C/S project,
distribution (one or several db servers),
network capabilities,
needs for scalability, availability,
preferred server platforms (UNIX, NT, others),
legacy integration (non, partial, full),
reuse of the cobol app
etc. (random order).

Several of these topics influence the design/architecture of your future
C/S system. For example: a normally good performing front end app. can
be seriously slowed down by having too many user connections to the dbms
when going 2-tier or by weak network throughput.

--
Best regards
Rainer Leicht, NCR (Switzerland)

Email: rainer.lei...@switzerland.NCR.com

Re:HELP: Please help, what client-tool to use for developing client-server applications?


Quote
Savas Pavlidis wrote:

> Prior of buying, and most of all dedicated to one client tool for
> developing client-server applications, I would like the comments of
> users who already have the experience of more than one to make a
> comparison among them.

> In my company we are thinking of moving from our COBOL legacy system
> to client-server. Observed several rdbms, and settled to Oracle or
> Sybase, because they have good support here in Greece. The problem
> aroused for the tools. Oracle wants to use their products
> (developer2000 and designer2000) which seems good at spec, but we have
> heard numerous things for them (they GPF, they are heavy, they are
> slow etc) but one main thing that made us give a second thought, it
> was their price, which is very expensive (at least here in Greece,
> where salaries are too slow compared to US for example). On the other
> end, Sybase moves its Powerbuilder, for which I heard also same things
> as an immature product too, and slow. In usenet several users propose
> other products (Delphi, Jam etc) which makes the situtation even worse
> for us to decide. We are only two (2) developers, and our budget is
> low, so we can't afford the money and most of all the time, to test
> every possible platform (or even some of them) before we decide. And
> because the time invested on one tool, plus the money for education on
> this would be too much to later abandon,

> WE WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINIONS PLEASE !!!!!

> We seek the opinions of developers who tried more than one of the
> products (Developer2000/Designer2000, Powerbuilder/S-Designor, Delphi2
> C/S, VisualBasic, Jam etc ) and can give their opinions. Some notes of
> the strengths of their preferred tool that is not available on others
> is highly prefered.
> Also sites with documents which compare various tools would be
> helpful.

> Thanks in advance.

> Please reply also by e-mail, because I may miss the post, due to IBM
> which has a lot of problems with it's news servers the last year.

> Savas Pavlidis

> pavli...@ibm.net

There is a study from Butler Bloor Ltd., Bletchley, GB, which was
published in 1996. The different C/S tools are discussed and rated.
Furtermore the study differentiates between tools for local and wide area
networks.
--

mailto: Anja.Frank.Lichterf...@t-online.de

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