Board index » delphi » Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

IONWORX Tech.

Delphi Developer
 

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)


2005-05-11 04:19:51 PM
delphi206
Hello Nick,
I would like to answer about your answers
Quote
If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2 while
ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
level 6.
Well I think you are wrong in your comparaison, it is more easy to create a
generic unpacker for PE Cryptor (like AsProtect and Themida) or others than
Native Delphi Protection. When you used VCL Licensing Protection, you have
more security, first because no generic unpacker are available so need to
spent time, second you customize protection.
Maybe you need to read the latest news ;-)
www.exetools.com/forum/forumdisplay.php
Quote
The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
that Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
decompiles
it to ASM.
About Themida Protector, don't protect the source code at all, only patching
the executable file.
About Themida Security, I should you to read this article :
ntoskrnl.altervista.org/articles/antimida_1.0.htm
Quote
Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something that
other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for protecting
files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now. No
need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
minutes away.
Wrong again, even if the SecureCode source code is available, it is very hard
to retrieve original source code without a good key, example RSA encryption
system (RC4, RC5, RC6, PKI) sources are available that mean the security are
compromise ? No I don't think. ;-)
Best regards,
IONWORX Tech.
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
www.ionworx.com
"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
Have you ever done debugging in your life? I mean real debugging, of
packed/protected EXE. Not the debugging inside Delphi's IDE.

If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2 while
ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
level 6.

Encrypting sections of code with the BEST and more SECURE algorithm in the
world is not an issue. Soon or late they will be decrypted (in memory) to
be executed. Then, the cracker will get that image and he will bring to
life a new executable, the well known "unpacked" version.

So its better to learn how to defeat those debug tools crackers use (Olly,
SoftIce etc) rathen than messing with encryptions that soon or late will
be decrypted and the real instructions will be visible.

The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one that
Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and decompiles
it to ASM. Then it starts playing with the code, adding garbage code,
changing code position, encrypting some blocks. Note that the garbage code
looks like the real code because it actually copies blocks from other
parts of code and put them in random parts inside the exe. Then this ASM
file is agained compiled with an embedded compiler and what we have is a
new executable. That executable is entirely encrypted and the decryption
routines are inside included in that shield. Debugging of that kind of
apps are real pains because if you manage to get the decrypted
instructions (code) you have to read 8.000 instructions and only the 1.000
are the useful ones.

Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something that
other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for protecting
files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now. No
need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
minutes away.

Btw, the new version of ExeCryptor
(www.strongbit.com/execryptor.asp) is a real pain according to
crackers. There are some cracking forums you can read (witthout post).
They are talking every day about the protections. You can read very
interesting things there that will definately change your mind.

Nick


"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:42811f3e$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>Undoubtedly so. :^) Does ASProtect SKE have something comparable to the
 >Ionworx Secure Code, for encrypting sections of code?
 >
 >Van
 >
 >"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>Yes. Maybe I know something more :)
 >>
 >>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>
 >>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>Only the new ASProtect SKE (v2) covers all those details.
 >>>
 >>>Boy, you sure can not tell that from looking at their website. Very
 >>>little information available.
 >>>
 >>>Van
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >

 
 
Nick Rollas

Delphi Developer

2005-05-12 02:50:34 AM

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

ASProtected cracked, as always but there is no general unpacker for it.
Just tools that helps you to dump some parts, - NOT a asprotect-unpack.exe
On the other hand there is a file called ionworxkill.exe that resets the
trial on
every Ionworx protected file. Do you know that?
Now about the Themida, you are wrong. It depends on what you select on
options. If you ever had the xprotector (previous version of Themida) in
your hands you will see that it decompiles the EXE to ASM. And then it
compiles the ASM back to EXE. The generated ASM code is source code
and then you can make all the tricks you do in your pascal code. Exactly the
same and much more. About the instructions to deprotect themida
applications,
if you read it careful it says how to dump the themida protected
applications.
No how to completely unprotect it. Author send emails to Delphi Developers
with
tricks how to completely protect their apps againt those instructions. Of
course
the new version of Themida has "closed" this security hole and added some
new tricks to use in source code, adding LIB/OBJ files that compiles
directly
to exe and adds a good level of security.
At last, about ExeCryptor you can see what crackers say about it, how
difficult is to attack it: forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
Now, if you read this forum then you can see your warez version of
IceLicense
that easily cracked to reset the trial:
forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
PS: I dont want to start a thread with you, so plz lets stop it here.
Nick
"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Hello Nick,

I would like to answer about your answers

>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2 while
 >ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >level 6.
Well I think you are wrong in your comparaison, it is more easy to create a
generic unpacker for PE Cryptor (like AsProtect and Themida) or others
than Native Delphi Protection. When you used VCL Licensing Protection, you
have
more security, first because no generic unpacker are available so need to
spent time, second you customize protection.

Maybe you need to read the latest news ;-)
www.exetools.com/forum/forumdisplay.php



>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >that Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >decompiles
 >it to ASM.
About Themida Protector, don't protect the source code at all, only
patching the executable file.

About Themida Security, I should you to read this article :
ntoskrnl.altervista.org/articles/antimida_1.0.htm



>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >that
 >other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for protecting
 >files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now. No
 >need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >minutes away.
Wrong again, even if the SecureCode source code is available, it is very
hard to retrieve original source code without a good key, example RSA
encryption system (RC4, RC5, RC6, PKI) sources are available that mean the
security are compromise ? No I don't think. ;-)


Best regards,
IONWORX Tech.
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
www.ionworx.com





"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>Have you ever done debugging in your life? I mean real debugging, of
 >packed/protected EXE. Not the debugging inside Delphi's IDE.
 >
 >If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2 while
 >ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >level 6.
 >
 >Encrypting sections of code with the BEST and more SECURE algorithm in
 >the
 >world is not an issue. Soon or late they will be decrypted (in memory) to
 >be executed. Then, the cracker will get that image and he will bring to
 >life a new executable, the well known "unpacked" version.
 >
 >So its better to learn how to defeat those debug tools crackers use
 >(Olly,
 >SoftIce etc) rathen than messing with encryptions that soon or late will
 >be decrypted and the real instructions will be visible.
 >
 >The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >that
 >Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and decompiles
 >it to ASM. Then it starts playing with the code, adding garbage code,
 >changing code position, encrypting some blocks. Note that the garbage
 >code
 >looks like the real code because it actually copies blocks from other
 >parts of code and put them in random parts inside the exe. Then this ASM
 >file is agained compiled with an embedded compiler and what we have is a
 >new executable. That executable is entirely encrypted and the decryption
 >routines are inside included in that shield. Debugging of that kind of
 >apps are real pains because if you manage to get the decrypted
 >instructions (code) you have to read 8.000 instructions and only the
 >1.000
 >are the useful ones.
 >
 >Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >that
 >other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for protecting
 >files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now. No
 >need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >minutes away.
 >
 >Btw, the new version of ExeCryptor
 >(www.strongbit.com/execryptor.asp) is a real pain according to
 >crackers. There are some cracking forums you can read (witthout post).
 >They are talking every day about the protections. You can read very
 >interesting things there that will definately change your mind.
 >
 >Nick
 >
 >
 >"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >news:42811f3e$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>Undoubtedly so. :^) Does ASProtect SKE have something comparable to
 >>the
 >>Ionworx Secure Code, for encrypting sections of code?
 >>
 >>Van
 >>
 >>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>Yes. Maybe I know something more :)
 >>>
 >>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>
 >>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>Only the new ASProtect SKE (v2) covers all those details.
 >>>>
 >>>>Boy, you sure can not tell that from looking at their website. Very
 >>>>little information available.
 >>>>
 >>>>Van
 >>>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >

 
IONWORX Tech.

Delphi Developer

2005-05-12 01:44:51 PM

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

Hello Nick,
About ICE License warez, it is not a valid version, because ICE License
Manager remain in demo mode, no crack are available for ICE License.
About IonworxKill don't work at all, because ICE License use random access
to avoid this attack, that why don't work.
Best regards,
IONWORX Tech.
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
www.ionworx.com
"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
ASProtected cracked, as always but there is no general unpacker for it.
Just tools that helps you to dump some parts, - NOT a asprotect-unpack.exe
On the other hand there is a file called ionworxkill.exe that resets the
trial on
every Ionworx protected file. Do you know that?

Now about the Themida, you are wrong. It depends on what you select on
options. If you ever had the xprotector (previous version of Themida) in
your hands you will see that it decompiles the EXE to ASM. And then it
compiles the ASM back to EXE. The generated ASM code is source code
and then you can make all the tricks you do in your pascal code. Exactly
the
same and much more. About the instructions to deprotect themida
applications,
if you read it careful it says how to dump the themida protected
applications.
No how to completely unprotect it. Author send emails to Delphi Developers
with
tricks how to completely protect their apps againt those instructions. Of
course
the new version of Themida has "closed" this security hole and added some
new tricks to use in source code, adding LIB/OBJ files that compiles
directly
to exe and adds a good level of security.

At last, about ExeCryptor you can see what crackers say about it, how
difficult is to attack it: forum.exetools.com/showthread.php

Now, if you read this forum then you can see your warez version of
IceLicense
that easily cracked to reset the trial:
forum.exetools.com/showthread.php


PS: I dont want to start a thread with you, so plz lets stop it here.

Nick

"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>Hello Nick,
 >
 >I would like to answer about your answers
 >
 >>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>while
 >>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>level 6.
 >
 >Well I think you are wrong in your comparaison, it is more easy to create
 >a generic unpacker for PE Cryptor (like AsProtect and Themida) or others
 >than Native Delphi Protection. When you used VCL Licensing Protection,
 >you have
 >more security, first because no generic unpacker are available so need to
 >spent time, second you customize protection.
 >
 >Maybe you need to read the latest news ;-)
 >www.exetools.com/forum/forumdisplay.php
 >
 >
 >
 >>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>that Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>decompiles
 >>it to ASM.
 >
 >About Themida Protector, don't protect the source code at all, only
 >patching the executable file.
 >
 >About Themida Security, I should you to read this article :
 >ntoskrnl.altervista.org/articles/antimida_1.0.htm
 >
 >
 >
 >>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>that
 >>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for protecting
 >>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now. No
 >>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>minutes away.
 >
 >Wrong again, even if the SecureCode source code is available, it is very
 >hard to retrieve original source code without a good key, example RSA
 >encryption system (RC4, RC5, RC6, PKI) sources are available that mean
 >the security are compromise ? No I don't think. ;-)
 >
 >
 >Best regards,
 >IONWORX Tech.
 >XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >www.ionworx.com
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
 >XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>Have you ever done debugging in your life? I mean real debugging, of
 >>packed/protected EXE. Not the debugging inside Delphi's IDE.
 >>
 >>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>while
 >>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>level 6.
 >>
 >>Encrypting sections of code with the BEST and more SECURE algorithm in
 >>the
 >>world is not an issue. Soon or late they will be decrypted (in memory)
 >>to
 >>be executed. Then, the cracker will get that image and he will bring to
 >>life a new executable, the well known "unpacked" version.
 >>
 >>So its better to learn how to defeat those debug tools crackers use
 >>(Olly,
 >>SoftIce etc) rathen than messing with encryptions that soon or late will
 >>be decrypted and the real instructions will be visible.
 >>
 >>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>that
 >>Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and decompiles
 >>it to ASM. Then it starts playing with the code, adding garbage code,
 >>changing code position, encrypting some blocks. Note that the garbage
 >>code
 >>looks like the real code because it actually copies blocks from other
 >>parts of code and put them in random parts inside the exe. Then this ASM
 >>file is agained compiled with an embedded compiler and what we have is a
 >>new executable. That executable is entirely encrypted and the decryption
 >>routines are inside included in that shield. Debugging of that kind of
 >>apps are real pains because if you manage to get the decrypted
 >>instructions (code) you have to read 8.000 instructions and only the
 >>1.000
 >>are the useful ones.
 >>
 >>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>that
 >>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for protecting
 >>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now. No
 >>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>minutes away.
 >>
 >>Btw, the new version of ExeCryptor
 >>(www.strongbit.com/execryptor.asp) is a real pain according to
 >>crackers. There are some cracking forums you can read (witthout post).
 >>They are talking every day about the protections. You can read very
 >>interesting things there that will definately change your mind.
 >>
 >>Nick
 >>
 >>
 >>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>news:42811f3e$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>Undoubtedly so. :^) Does ASProtect SKE have something comparable to
 >>>the
 >>>Ionworx Secure Code, for encrypting sections of code?
 >>>
 >>>Van
 >>>
 >>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>Yes. Maybe I know something more :)
 >>>>
 >>>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>
 >>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>Only the new ASProtect SKE (v2) covers all those details.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Boy, you sure can not tell that from looking at their website. Very
 >>>>>little information available.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Van
 >>>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >

 

Nick Rollas

Delphi Developer

2005-05-12 03:34:52 PM

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

I searched on Emule and I found that ionworxkill and it works perfect for
many many software around :) About the warez IceLicense, it also works fine
because they included the License Manager of a registered version with that
ionwroxkill tool that resets the activation counter.
Why dont you see that with your eyes?
Nick
"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Hello Nick,

About ICE License warez, it is not a valid version, because ICE License
Manager remain in demo mode, no crack are available for ICE License.

About IonworxKill don't work at all, because ICE License use random access
to avoid this attack, that why don't work.

Best regards,
IONWORX Tech.
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
www.ionworx.com




"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>ASProtected cracked, as always but there is no general unpacker for it.
 >Just tools that helps you to dump some parts, - NOT a
 >asprotect-unpack.exe
 >On the other hand there is a file called ionworxkill.exe that resets the
 >trial on
 >every Ionworx protected file. Do you know that?
 >
 >Now about the Themida, you are wrong. It depends on what you select on
 >options. If you ever had the xprotector (previous version of Themida) in
 >your hands you will see that it decompiles the EXE to ASM. And then it
 >compiles the ASM back to EXE. The generated ASM code is source code
 >and then you can make all the tricks you do in your pascal code. Exactly
 >the
 >same and much more. About the instructions to deprotect themida
 >applications,
 >if you read it careful it says how to dump the themida protected
 >applications.
 >No how to completely unprotect it. Author send emails to Delphi Developers
 >with
 >tricks how to completely protect their apps againt those instructions. Of
 >course
 >the new version of Themida has "closed" this security hole and added some
 >new tricks to use in source code, adding LIB/OBJ files that compiles
 >directly
 >to exe and adds a good level of security.
 >
 >At last, about ExeCryptor you can see what crackers say about it, how
 >difficult is to attack it:
 >forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
 >
 >Now, if you read this forum then you can see your warez version of
 >IceLicense
 >that easily cracked to reset the trial:
 >forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
 >
 >
 >PS: I dont want to start a thread with you, so plz lets stop it here.
 >
 >Nick
 >
 >"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>Hello Nick,
 >>
 >>I would like to answer about your answers
 >>
 >>>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>>while
 >>>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>>level 6.
 >>
 >>Well I think you are wrong in your comparaison, it is more easy to create
 >>a generic unpacker for PE Cryptor (like AsProtect and Themida) or others
 >>than Native Delphi Protection. When you used VCL Licensing Protection,
 >>you have
 >>more security, first because no generic unpacker are available so need
 >>to spent time, second you customize protection.
 >>
 >>Maybe you need to read the latest news ;-)
 >>www.exetools.com/forum/forumdisplay.php
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>>that Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>>decompiles
 >>>it to ASM.
 >>
 >>About Themida Protector, don't protect the source code at all, only
 >>patching the executable file.
 >>
 >>About Themida Security, I should you to read this article :
 >>ntoskrnl.altervista.org/articles/antimida_1.0.htm
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>>that
 >>>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for
 >>>protecting
 >>>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now.
 >>>No
 >>>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>>minutes away.
 >>
 >>Wrong again, even if the SecureCode source code is available, it is very
 >>hard to retrieve original source code without a good key, example RSA
 >>encryption system (RC4, RC5, RC6, PKI) sources are available that mean
 >>the security are compromise ? No I don't think. ;-)
 >>
 >>
 >>Best regards,
 >>IONWORX Tech.
 >>XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >>www.ionworx.com
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
 >>XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>Have you ever done debugging in your life? I mean real debugging, of
 >>>packed/protected EXE. Not the debugging inside Delphi's IDE.
 >>>
 >>>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>>while
 >>>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>>level 6.
 >>>
 >>>Encrypting sections of code with the BEST and more SECURE algorithm in
 >>>the
 >>>world is not an issue. Soon or late they will be decrypted (in memory)
 >>>to
 >>>be executed. Then, the cracker will get that image and he will bring to
 >>>life a new executable, the well known "unpacked" version.
 >>>
 >>>So its better to learn how to defeat those debug tools crackers use
 >>>(Olly,
 >>>SoftIce etc) rathen than messing with encryptions that soon or late
 >>>will
 >>>be decrypted and the real instructions will be visible.
 >>>
 >>>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>>that
 >>>Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>>decompiles
 >>>it to ASM. Then it starts playing with the code, adding garbage code,
 >>>changing code position, encrypting some blocks. Note that the garbage
 >>>code
 >>>looks like the real code because it actually copies blocks from other
 >>>parts of code and put them in random parts inside the exe. Then this
 >>>ASM
 >>>file is agained compiled with an embedded compiler and what we have is
 >>>a
 >>>new executable. That executable is entirely encrypted and the
 >>>decryption
 >>>routines are inside included in that shield. Debugging of that kind of
 >>>apps are real pains because if you manage to get the decrypted
 >>>instructions (code) you have to read 8.000 instructions and only the
 >>>1.000
 >>>are the useful ones.
 >>>
 >>>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>>that
 >>>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for
 >>>protecting
 >>>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now.
 >>>No
 >>>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>>minutes away.
 >>>
 >>>Btw, the new version of ExeCryptor
 >>>(www.strongbit.com/execryptor.asp) is a real pain according to
 >>>crackers. There are some cracking forums you can read (witthout post).
 >>>They are talking every day about the protections. You can read very
 >>>interesting things there that will definately change your mind.
 >>>
 >>>Nick
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>news:42811f3e$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>Undoubtedly so. :^) Does ASProtect SKE have something comparable to
 >>>>the
 >>>>Ionworx Secure Code, for encrypting sections of code?
 >>>>
 >>>>Van
 >>>>
 >>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>Yes. Maybe I know something more :)
 >>>>>
 >>>>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>Only the new ASProtect SKE (v2) covers all those details.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>Boy, you sure can not tell that from looking at their website. Very
 >>>>>>little information available.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>Van
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >

 
Nick Rollas

Delphi Developer

2005-05-12 03:44:00 PM

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

At last, I tested this SecureCode software. It still requires a software to
patch the exe. I mean that "SecureCode.exe" patches and encrypts the
executable. Nothing more or nothing special than regular protections. The
only difference is that with securecode you can mark specific parts of codes
to be encrypted. The other protectors marks all the executable or randomly
parts.
SecureCode ISNT a native source code protection, since the generated delphi
executable is not protected UNTIL you apply the protection using your
external protector (SecureCode.exe).
Stop flaming ppl Bruno.
Nick
"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
ASProtected cracked, as always but there is no general unpacker for it.
Just tools that helps you to dump some parts, - NOT a asprotect-unpack.exe
On the other hand there is a file called ionworxkill.exe that resets the
trial on
every Ionworx protected file. Do you know that?

Now about the Themida, you are wrong. It depends on what you select on
options. If you ever had the xprotector (previous version of Themida) in
your hands you will see that it decompiles the EXE to ASM. And then it
compiles the ASM back to EXE. The generated ASM code is source code
and then you can make all the tricks you do in your pascal code. Exactly
the
same and much more. About the instructions to deprotect themida
applications,
if you read it careful it says how to dump the themida protected
applications.
No how to completely unprotect it. Author send emails to Delphi Developers
with
tricks how to completely protect their apps againt those instructions. Of
course
the new version of Themida has "closed" this security hole and added some
new tricks to use in source code, adding LIB/OBJ files that compiles
directly
to exe and adds a good level of security.

At last, about ExeCryptor you can see what crackers say about it, how
difficult is to attack it: forum.exetools.com/showthread.php

Now, if you read this forum then you can see your warez version of
IceLicense
that easily cracked to reset the trial:
forum.exetools.com/showthread.php


PS: I dont want to start a thread with you, so plz lets stop it here.

Nick

"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>Hello Nick,
 >
 >I would like to answer about your answers
 >
 >>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>while
 >>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>level 6.
 >
 >Well I think you are wrong in your comparaison, it is more easy to create
 >a generic unpacker for PE Cryptor (like AsProtect and Themida) or others
 >than Native Delphi Protection. When you used VCL Licensing Protection,
 >you have
 >more security, first because no generic unpacker are available so need to
 >spent time, second you customize protection.
 >
 >Maybe you need to read the latest news ;-)
 >www.exetools.com/forum/forumdisplay.php
 >
 >
 >
 >>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>that Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>decompiles
 >>it to ASM.
 >
 >About Themida Protector, don't protect the source code at all, only
 >patching the executable file.
 >
 >About Themida Security, I should you to read this article :
 >ntoskrnl.altervista.org/articles/antimida_1.0.htm
 >
 >
 >
 >>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>that
 >>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for protecting
 >>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now. No
 >>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>minutes away.
 >
 >Wrong again, even if the SecureCode source code is available, it is very
 >hard to retrieve original source code without a good key, example RSA
 >encryption system (RC4, RC5, RC6, PKI) sources are available that mean
 >the security are compromise ? No I don't think. ;-)
 >
 >
 >Best regards,
 >IONWORX Tech.
 >XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >www.ionworx.com
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
 >XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>Have you ever done debugging in your life? I mean real debugging, of
 >>packed/protected EXE. Not the debugging inside Delphi's IDE.
 >>
 >>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>while
 >>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>level 6.
 >>
 >>Encrypting sections of code with the BEST and more SECURE algorithm in
 >>the
 >>world is not an issue. Soon or late they will be decrypted (in memory)
 >>to
 >>be executed. Then, the cracker will get that image and he will bring to
 >>life a new executable, the well known "unpacked" version.
 >>
 >>So its better to learn how to defeat those debug tools crackers use
 >>(Olly,
 >>SoftIce etc) rathen than messing with encryptions that soon or late will
 >>be decrypted and the real instructions will be visible.
 >>
 >>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>that
 >>Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and decompiles
 >>it to ASM. Then it starts playing with the code, adding garbage code,
 >>changing code position, encrypting some blocks. Note that the garbage
 >>code
 >>looks like the real code because it actually copies blocks from other
 >>parts of code and put them in random parts inside the exe. Then this ASM
 >>file is agained compiled with an embedded compiler and what we have is a
 >>new executable. That executable is entirely encrypted and the decryption
 >>routines are inside included in that shield. Debugging of that kind of
 >>apps are real pains because if you manage to get the decrypted
 >>instructions (code) you have to read 8.000 instructions and only the
 >>1.000
 >>are the useful ones.
 >>
 >>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>that
 >>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for protecting
 >>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now. No
 >>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>minutes away.
 >>
 >>Btw, the new version of ExeCryptor
 >>(www.strongbit.com/execryptor.asp) is a real pain according to
 >>crackers. There are some cracking forums you can read (witthout post).
 >>They are talking every day about the protections. You can read very
 >>interesting things there that will definately change your mind.
 >>
 >>Nick
 >>
 >>
 >>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>news:42811f3e$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>Undoubtedly so. :^) Does ASProtect SKE have something comparable to
 >>>the
 >>>Ionworx Secure Code, for encrypting sections of code?
 >>>
 >>>Van
 >>>
 >>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>Yes. Maybe I know something more :)
 >>>>
 >>>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>
 >>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>Only the new ASProtect SKE (v2) covers all those details.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Boy, you sure can not tell that from looking at their website. Very
 >>>>>little information available.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Van
 >>>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >

 
matthew

Delphi Developer

2005-05-12 04:42:00 PM

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

Quote
Why dont you see that with your eyes?
This has come up before, and the answer has always been that you should
simply make the trial version more limited than the full version. That way
you can reset the trial as much as you want, but you don't get the full
functionality. It is common sense that trial hacking is going to happen -
the trial info has to be stored external to the app, and is thus
attackable. Surely all such schemes are vulnerable to this?
Personally, I'd much rather have the source available to a protection
scheme as it allows ME to modify it to make it different to what everyone
else is using. Thus if all apps used HKCU\Software\TrialExpiry, I could
simply change it to HKCU\Software\TrialExpiryForMe and the standard reset
app won't work any more.
Like many of these things, people shouldn't expect a product to give them
everything. Being aware of these issues is valuable, and I thank the
various posters here for the good debate, but no one should expect
perfection from any product.
/Matthew Jones/
 
IONWORX Tech.

Delphi Developer

2005-05-12 04:53:47 PM

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

It's wrong, I am developer so I know how SecureCode work ;)
"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
42830940$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
At last, I tested this SecureCode software. It still requires a software
to
patch the exe. I mean that "SecureCode.exe" patches and encrypts the
executable. Nothing more or nothing special than regular protections. The
only difference is that with securecode you can mark specific parts of
codes
to be encrypted. The other protectors marks all the executable or randomly
parts.

SecureCode ISNT a native source code protection, since the generated
delphi
executable is not protected UNTIL you apply the protection using your
external protector (SecureCode.exe).

Stop flaming ppl Bruno.

Nick

"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>ASProtected cracked, as always but there is no general unpacker for it.
 >Just tools that helps you to dump some parts, - NOT a
 >asprotect-unpack.exe
 >On the other hand there is a file called ionworxkill.exe that resets the
 >trial on
 >every Ionworx protected file. Do you know that?
 >
 >Now about the Themida, you are wrong. It depends on what you select on
 >options. If you ever had the xprotector (previous version of Themida) in
 >your hands you will see that it decompiles the EXE to ASM. And then it
 >compiles the ASM back to EXE. The generated ASM code is source code
 >and then you can make all the tricks you do in your pascal code. Exactly
 >the
 >same and much more. About the instructions to deprotect themida
 >applications,
 >if you read it careful it says how to dump the themida protected
 >applications.
 >No how to completely unprotect it. Author send emails to Delphi Developers
 >with
 >tricks how to completely protect their apps againt those instructions. Of
 >course
 >the new version of Themida has "closed" this security hole and added some
 >new tricks to use in source code, adding LIB/OBJ files that compiles
 >directly
 >to exe and adds a good level of security.
 >
 >At last, about ExeCryptor you can see what crackers say about it, how
 >difficult is to attack it:
 >forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
 >
 >Now, if you read this forum then you can see your warez version of
 >IceLicense
 >that easily cracked to reset the trial:
 >forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
 >
 >
 >PS: I dont want to start a thread with you, so plz lets stop it here.
 >
 >Nick
 >
 >"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>Hello Nick,
 >>
 >>I would like to answer about your answers
 >>
 >>>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>>while
 >>>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>>level 6.
 >>
 >>Well I think you are wrong in your comparaison, it is more easy to create
 >>a generic unpacker for PE Cryptor (like AsProtect and Themida) or others
 >>than Native Delphi Protection. When you used VCL Licensing Protection,
 >>you have
 >>more security, first because no generic unpacker are available so need
 >>to
 >>spent time, second you customize protection.
 >>
 >>Maybe you need to read the latest news ;-)
 >>www.exetools.com/forum/forumdisplay.php
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>>that Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>>decompiles
 >>>it to ASM.
 >>
 >>About Themida Protector, don't protect the source code at all, only
 >>patching the executable file.
 >>
 >>About Themida Security, I should you to read this article :
 >>ntoskrnl.altervista.org/articles/antimida_1.0.htm
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>>that
 >>>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for
 >>>protecting
 >>>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now.
 >>>No
 >>>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>>minutes away.
 >>
 >>Wrong again, even if the SecureCode source code is available, it is very
 >>hard to retrieve original source code without a good key, example RSA
 >>encryption system (RC4, RC5, RC6, PKI) sources are available that mean
 >>the security are compromise ? No I don't think. ;-)
 >>
 >>
 >>Best regards,
 >>IONWORX Tech.
 >>XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >>www.ionworx.com
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
 >>XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>Have you ever done debugging in your life? I mean real debugging, of
 >>>packed/protected EXE. Not the debugging inside Delphi's IDE.
 >>>
 >>>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>>while
 >>>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>>level 6.
 >>>
 >>>Encrypting sections of code with the BEST and more SECURE algorithm in
 >>>the
 >>>world is not an issue. Soon or late they will be decrypted (in memory)
 >>>to
 >>>be executed. Then, the cracker will get that image and he will bring to
 >>>life a new executable, the well known "unpacked" version.
 >>>
 >>>So its better to learn how to defeat those debug tools crackers use
 >>>(Olly,
 >>>SoftIce etc) rathen than messing with encryptions that soon or late
 >>>will
 >>>be decrypted and the real instructions will be visible.
 >>>
 >>>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>>that
 >>>Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>>decompiles
 >>>it to ASM. Then it starts playing with the code, adding garbage code,
 >>>changing code position, encrypting some blocks. Note that the garbage
 >>>code
 >>>looks like the real code because it actually copies blocks from other
 >>>parts of code and put them in random parts inside the exe. Then this
 >>>ASM
 >>>file is agained compiled with an embedded compiler and what we have is
 >>>a
 >>>new executable. That executable is entirely encrypted and the
 >>>decryption
 >>>routines are inside included in that shield. Debugging of that kind of
 >>>apps are real pains because if you manage to get the decrypted
 >>>instructions (code) you have to read 8.000 instructions and only the
 >>>1.000
 >>>are the useful ones.
 >>>
 >>>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>>that
 >>>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for
 >>>protecting
 >>>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now.
 >>>No
 >>>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>>minutes away.
 >>>
 >>>Btw, the new version of ExeCryptor
 >>>(www.strongbit.com/execryptor.asp) is a real pain according to
 >>>crackers. There are some cracking forums you can read (witthout post).
 >>>They are talking every day about the protections. You can read very
 >>>interesting things there that will definately change your mind.
 >>>
 >>>Nick
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>news:42811f3e$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>Undoubtedly so. :^) Does ASProtect SKE have something comparable to
 >>>>the
 >>>>Ionworx Secure Code, for encrypting sections of code?
 >>>>
 >>>>Van
 >>>>
 >>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>Yes. Maybe I know something more :)
 >>>>>
 >>>>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>Only the new ASProtect SKE (v2) covers all those details.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>Boy, you sure can not tell that from looking at their website. Very
 >>>>>>little information available.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>Van
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >


 
IONWORX Tech.

Delphi Developer

2005-05-12 05:02:43 PM

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

Nick,
Remember the reset Trial is not Crack because the product is always in demo
mode! We confirm again the "ionworxkill" doen't work, because the
informations path are random in the system ... ;)
For me the crack to turn a trial version into full version without any key,
that not a case!
Please try to find ICE License crack, tutorial to remove our protections.
Note all protections can be resetted even XtremeProtector (now called
Themida), you should you to read manual file from :
www.angelfire.com/creep/blindprophet/EVACleaner.zip
You'll learn more information about all protections!
Best regards,
IONWORX Tech.
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
www.ionworx.com
"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
I searched on Emule and I found that ionworxkill and it works perfect for
many many software around :) About the warez IceLicense, it also works fine
because they included the License Manager of a registered version with that
ionwroxkill tool that resets the activation counter.

Why dont you see that with your eyes?

Nick

"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:4282ed51$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>Hello Nick,
 >
 >About ICE License warez, it is not a valid version, because ICE License
 >Manager remain in demo mode, no crack are available for ICE License.
 >
 >About IonworxKill don't work at all, because ICE License use random
 >access to avoid this attack, that why don't work.
 >
 >Best regards,
 >IONWORX Tech.
 >XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >www.ionworx.com
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
 >XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>ASProtected cracked, as always but there is no general unpacker for it.
 >>Just tools that helps you to dump some parts, - NOT a
 >>asprotect-unpack.exe
 >>On the other hand there is a file called ionworxkill.exe that resets the
 >>trial on
 >>every Ionworx protected file. Do you know that?
 >>
 >>Now about the Themida, you are wrong. It depends on what you select on
 >>options. If you ever had the xprotector (previous version of Themida) in
 >>your hands you will see that it decompiles the EXE to ASM. And then it
 >>compiles the ASM back to EXE. The generated ASM code is source code
 >>and then you can make all the tricks you do in your pascal code. Exactly
 >>the
 >>same and much more. About the instructions to deprotect themida
 >>applications,
 >>if you read it careful it says how to dump the themida protected
 >>applications.
 >>No how to completely unprotect it. Author send emails to registered
 >>users with
 >>tricks how to completely protect their apps againt those instructions.
 >>Of course
 >>the new version of Themida has "closed" this security hole and added
 >>some
 >>new tricks to use in source code, adding LIB/OBJ files that compiles
 >>directly
 >>to exe and adds a good level of security.
 >>
 >>At last, about ExeCryptor you can see what crackers say about it, how
 >>difficult is to attack it:
 >>forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
 >>
 >>Now, if you read this forum then you can see your warez version of
 >>IceLicense
 >>that easily cracked to reset the trial:
 >>forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
 >>
 >>
 >>PS: I dont want to start a thread with you, so plz lets stop it here.
 >>
 >>Nick
 >>
 >>"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>Hello Nick,
 >>>
 >>>I would like to answer about your answers
 >>>
 >>>>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>>>while
 >>>>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>>>level 6.
 >>>
 >>>Well I think you are wrong in your comparaison, it is more easy to
 >>>create a generic unpacker for PE Cryptor (like AsProtect and Themida)
 >>>or others than Native Delphi Protection. When you used VCL Licensing
 >>>Protection, you have
 >>>more security, first because no generic unpacker are available so need
 >>>to spent time, second you customize protection.
 >>>
 >>>Maybe you need to read the latest news ;-)
 >>>www.exetools.com/forum/forumdisplay.php
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>>>that Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>>>decompiles
 >>>>it to ASM.
 >>>
 >>>About Themida Protector, don't protect the source code at all, only
 >>>patching the executable file.
 >>>
 >>>About Themida Security, I should you to read this article :
 >>>ntoskrnl.altervista.org/articles/antimida_1.0.htm
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>>>that
 >>>>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for
 >>>>protecting
 >>>>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>>>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now.
 >>>>No
 >>>>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>>>minutes away.
 >>>
 >>>Wrong again, even if the SecureCode source code is available, it is very
 >>>hard to retrieve original source code without a good key, example RSA
 >>>encryption system (RC4, RC5, RC6, PKI) sources are available that mean
 >>>the security are compromise ? No I don't think. ;-)
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>Best regards,
 >>>IONWORX Tech.
 >>>XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >>>www.ionworx.com
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
 >>>XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>Have you ever done debugging in your life? I mean real debugging, of
 >>>>packed/protected EXE. Not the debugging inside Delphi's IDE.
 >>>>
 >>>>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>>>while
 >>>>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>>>level 6.
 >>>>
 >>>>Encrypting sections of code with the BEST and more SECURE algorithm in
 >>>>the
 >>>>world is not an issue. Soon or late they will be decrypted (in memory)
 >>>>to
 >>>>be executed. Then, the cracker will get that image and he will bring
 >>>>to
 >>>>life a new executable, the well known "unpacked" version.
 >>>>
 >>>>So its better to learn how to defeat those debug tools crackers use
 >>>>(Olly,
 >>>>SoftIce etc) rathen than messing with encryptions that soon or late
 >>>>will
 >>>>be decrypted and the real instructions will be visible.
 >>>>
 >>>>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>>>that
 >>>>Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>>>decompiles
 >>>>it to ASM. Then it starts playing with the code, adding garbage code,
 >>>>changing code position, encrypting some blocks. Note that the garbage
 >>>>code
 >>>>looks like the real code because it actually copies blocks from other
 >>>>parts of code and put them in random parts inside the exe. Then this
 >>>>ASM
 >>>>file is agained compiled with an embedded compiler and what we have is
 >>>>a
 >>>>new executable. That executable is entirely encrypted and the
 >>>>decryption
 >>>>routines are inside included in that shield. Debugging of that kind of
 >>>>apps are real pains because if you manage to get the decrypted
 >>>>instructions (code) you have to read 8.000 instructions and only the
 >>>>1.000
 >>>>are the useful ones.
 >>>>
 >>>>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>>>that
 >>>>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for
 >>>>protecting
 >>>>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>>>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now.
 >>>>No
 >>>>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>>>minutes away.
 >>>>
 >>>>Btw, the new version of ExeCryptor
 >>>>(www.strongbit.com/execryptor.asp) is a real pain according to
 >>>>crackers. There are some cracking forums you can read (witthout post).
 >>>>They are talking every day about the protections. You can read very
 >>>>interesting things there that will definately change your mind.
 >>>>
 >>>>Nick
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>news:42811f3e$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>Undoubtedly so. :^) Does ASProtect SKE have something comparable to
 >>>>>the
 >>>>>Ionworx Secure Code, for encrypting sections of code?
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Van
 >>>>>
 >>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>Yes. Maybe I know something more :)
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>>Only the new ASProtect SKE (v2) covers all those details.
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>Boy, you sure can not tell that from looking at their website. Very
 >>>>>>>little information available.
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>Van
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >

 
Nick Rollas

Delphi Developer

2005-05-12 06:18:48 PM

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

There is no tutorial for your product because the protection is not serious.
No need to write a tutorial. The tutorial exists when you need to help ppl
to crack a technology. The IceLicense tehcnology is medium to average. All
crackers can bypass it.
About the Ionworx Warez, its not the demo version is the registered version
the one available on Emule, the v2.09 compiled DCU registered and 2.08
source code.
Nick
"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Nick,

Remember the reset Trial is not Crack because the product is always in
demo mode! We confirm again the "ionworxkill" doen't work, because the
informations path are random in the system ... ;)

For me the crack to turn a trial version into full version without any
key, that not a case!
Please try to find ICE License crack, tutorial to remove our protections.

Note all protections can be resetted even XtremeProtector (now called
Themida), you should you to read manual file from :
www.angelfire.com/creep/blindprophet/EVACleaner.zip

You'll learn more information about all protections!

Best regards,
IONWORX Tech.
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
www.ionworx.com



"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>I searched on Emule and I found that ionworxkill and it works perfect for
 >many many software around :) About the warez IceLicense, it also works
 >fine because they included the License Manager of a registered version
 >with that ionwroxkill tool that resets the activation counter.
 >
 >Why dont you see that with your eyes?
 >
 >Nick
 >
 >"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >news:4282ed51$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>Hello Nick,
 >>
 >>About ICE License warez, it is not a valid version, because ICE License
 >>Manager remain in demo mode, no crack are available for ICE License.
 >>
 >>About IonworxKill don't work at all, because ICE License use random
 >>access to avoid this attack, that why don't work.
 >>
 >>Best regards,
 >>IONWORX Tech.
 >>XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >>www.ionworx.com
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
 >>XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>ASProtected cracked, as always but there is no general unpacker for it.
 >>>Just tools that helps you to dump some parts, - NOT a
 >>>asprotect-unpack.exe
 >>>On the other hand there is a file called ionworxkill.exe that resets
 >>>the trial on
 >>>every Ionworx protected file. Do you know that?
 >>>
 >>>Now about the Themida, you are wrong. It depends on what you select on
 >>>options. If you ever had the xprotector (previous version of Themida)
 >>>in
 >>>your hands you will see that it decompiles the EXE to ASM. And then it
 >>>compiles the ASM back to EXE. The generated ASM code is source code
 >>>and then you can make all the tricks you do in your pascal code.
 >>>Exactly the
 >>>same and much more. About the instructions to deprotect themida
 >>>applications,
 >>>if you read it careful it says how to dump the themida protected
 >>>applications.
 >>>No how to completely unprotect it. Author send emails to registered
 >>>users with
 >>>tricks how to completely protect their apps againt those instructions.
 >>>Of course
 >>>the new version of Themida has "closed" this security hole and added
 >>>some
 >>>new tricks to use in source code, adding LIB/OBJ files that compiles
 >>>directly
 >>>to exe and adds a good level of security.
 >>>
 >>>At last, about ExeCryptor you can see what crackers say about it, how
 >>>difficult is to attack it:
 >>>forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
 >>>
 >>>Now, if you read this forum then you can see your warez version of
 >>>IceLicense
 >>>that easily cracked to reset the trial:
 >>>forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>PS: I dont want to start a thread with you, so plz lets stop it here.
 >>>
 >>>Nick
 >>>
 >>>"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>Hello Nick,
 >>>>
 >>>>I would like to answer about your answers
 >>>>
 >>>>>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>>>>while
 >>>>>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>>>>level 6.
 >>>>
 >>>>Well I think you are wrong in your comparaison, it is more easy to
 >>>>create a generic unpacker for PE Cryptor (like AsProtect and Themida)
 >>>>or others than Native Delphi Protection. When you used VCL Licensing
 >>>>Protection, you have
 >>>>more security, first because no generic unpacker are available so need
 >>>>to spent time, second you customize protection.
 >>>>
 >>>>Maybe you need to read the latest news ;-)
 >>>>www.exetools.com/forum/forumdisplay.php
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>>>>that Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>>>>decompiles
 >>>>>it to ASM.
 >>>>
 >>>>About Themida Protector, don't protect the source code at all, only
 >>>>patching the executable file.
 >>>>
 >>>>About Themida Security, I should you to read this article :
 >>>>ntoskrnl.altervista.org/articles/antimida_1.0.htm
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>>>>that
 >>>>>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for
 >>>>>protecting
 >>>>>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>>>>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now.
 >>>>>No
 >>>>>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>>>>minutes away.
 >>>>
 >>>>Wrong again, even if the SecureCode source code is available, it's
 >>>>very hard to retrieve original source code without a good key, example
 >>>>RSA encryption system (RC4, RC5, RC6, PKI) sources are available that
 >>>>mean the security are compromise ? No I don't think. ;-)
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>Best regards,
 >>>>IONWORX Tech.
 >>>>XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >>>>www.ionworx.com
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de
 >>>>news:
 >>>>XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>Have you ever done debugging in your life? I mean real debugging, of
 >>>>>packed/protected EXE. Not the debugging inside Delphi's IDE.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>>>>while
 >>>>>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is on
 >>>>>level 6.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Encrypting sections of code with the BEST and more SECURE algorithm
 >>>>>in the
 >>>>>world is not an issue. Soon or late they will be decrypted (in
 >>>>>memory) to
 >>>>>be executed. Then, the cracker will get that image and he will bring
 >>>>>to
 >>>>>life a new executable, the well known "unpacked" version.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>So its better to learn how to defeat those debug tools crackers use
 >>>>>(Olly,
 >>>>>SoftIce etc) rathen than messing with encryptions that soon or late
 >>>>>will
 >>>>>be decrypted and the real instructions will be visible.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the one
 >>>>>that
 >>>>>Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>>>>decompiles
 >>>>>it to ASM. Then it starts playing with the code, adding garbage code,
 >>>>>changing code position, encrypting some blocks. Note that the garbage
 >>>>>code
 >>>>>looks like the real code because it actually copies blocks from other
 >>>>>parts of code and put them in random parts inside the exe. Then this
 >>>>>ASM
 >>>>>file is agained compiled with an embedded compiler and what we have
 >>>>>is a
 >>>>>new executable. That executable is entirely encrypted and the
 >>>>>decryption
 >>>>>routines are inside included in that shield. Debugging of that kind
 >>>>>of
 >>>>>apps are real pains because if you manage to get the decrypted
 >>>>>instructions (code) you have to read 8.000 instructions and only the
 >>>>>1.000
 >>>>>are the useful ones.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile - something
 >>>>>that
 >>>>>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for
 >>>>>protecting
 >>>>>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code of
 >>>>>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear now.
 >>>>>No
 >>>>>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>>>>minutes away.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Btw, the new version of ExeCryptor
 >>>>>(www.strongbit.com/execryptor.asp) is a real pain according to
 >>>>>crackers. There are some cracking forums you can read (witthout
 >>>>>post).
 >>>>>They are talking every day about the protections. You can read very
 >>>>>interesting things there that will definately change your mind.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Nick
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>news:42811f3e$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>Undoubtedly so. :^) Does ASProtect SKE have something comparable
 >>>>>>to the
 >>>>>>Ionworx Secure Code, for encrypting sections of code?
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>Van
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>Yes. Maybe I know something more :)
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>>>Only the new ASProtect SKE (v2) covers all those details.
 >>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>>Boy, you sure can not tell that from looking at their website. Very
 >>>>>>>>little information available.
 >>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>>Van
 >>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >

 
Jim Davis

Delphi Developer

2005-05-12 06:54:18 PM

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

Give it a rest Nick .... if your not happy, don't buy the product !!!!!
very simple indeed
Jim
 
IONWORX Tech.

Delphi Developer

2005-05-13 03:14:14 AM

Re: Good Licensing (for Nick Rollas)

You are wrong (once again), you have no experience with the product...
please don't talk about subject you don't know.
Best regards,
IONWORX Tech.
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
www.ionworx.com
"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
There is no tutorial for your product because the protection is not
serious. No need to write a tutorial. The tutorial exists when you need to
help ppl to crack a technology. The IceLicense tehcnology is medium to
average. All crackers can bypass it.

About the Ionworx Warez, its not the demo version is the registered
version the one available on Emule, the v2.09 compiled DCU registered and
2.08 source code.

Nick


"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>Nick,
 >
 >Remember the reset Trial is not Crack because the product is always in
 >demo mode! We confirm again the "ionworxkill" doen't work, because the
 >informations path are random in the system ... ;)
 >
 >For me the crack to turn a trial version into full version without any
 >key, that not a case!
 >Please try to find ICE License crack, tutorial to remove our protections.
 >
 >Note all protections can be resetted even XtremeProtector (now called
 >Themida), you should you to read manual file from :
 >www.angelfire.com/creep/blindprophet/EVACleaner.zip
 >
 >You'll learn more information about all protections!
 >
 >Best regards,
 >IONWORX Tech.
 >XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >www.ionworx.com
 >
 >
 >
 >"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
 >XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>I searched on Emule and I found that ionworxkill and it works perfect for
 >>many many software around :) About the warez IceLicense, it also works
 >>fine because they included the License Manager of a registered version
 >>with that ionwroxkill tool that resets the activation counter.
 >>
 >>Why dont you see that with your eyes?
 >>
 >>Nick
 >>
 >>"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>news:4282ed51$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>Hello Nick,
 >>>
 >>>About ICE License warez, it is not a valid version, because ICE License
 >>>Manager remain in demo mode, no crack are available for ICE License.
 >>>
 >>>About IonworxKill don't work at all, because ICE License use random
 >>>access to avoid this attack, that why don't work.
 >>>
 >>>Best regards,
 >>>IONWORX Tech.
 >>>XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >>>www.ionworx.com
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
 >>>XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>ASProtected cracked, as always but there is no general unpacker for
 >>>>it.
 >>>>Just tools that helps you to dump some parts, - NOT a
 >>>>asprotect-unpack.exe
 >>>>On the other hand there is a file called ionworxkill.exe that resets
 >>>>the trial on
 >>>>every Ionworx protected file. Do you know that?
 >>>>
 >>>>Now about the Themida, you are wrong. It depends on what you select on
 >>>>options. If you ever had the xprotector (previous version of Themida)
 >>>>in
 >>>>your hands you will see that it decompiles the EXE to ASM. And then it
 >>>>compiles the ASM back to EXE. The generated ASM code is source code
 >>>>and then you can make all the tricks you do in your pascal code.
 >>>>Exactly the
 >>>>same and much more. About the instructions to deprotect themida
 >>>>applications,
 >>>>if you read it careful it says how to dump the themida protected
 >>>>applications.
 >>>>No how to completely unprotect it. Author send emails to registered
 >>>>users with
 >>>>tricks how to completely protect their apps againt those instructions.
 >>>>Of course
 >>>>the new version of Themida has "closed" this security hole and added
 >>>>some
 >>>>new tricks to use in source code, adding LIB/OBJ files that compiles
 >>>>directly
 >>>>to exe and adds a good level of security.
 >>>>
 >>>>At last, about ExeCryptor you can see what crackers say about it, how
 >>>>difficult is to attack it:
 >>>>forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
 >>>>
 >>>>Now, if you read this forum then you can see your warez version of
 >>>>IceLicense
 >>>>that easily cracked to reset the trial:
 >>>>forum.exetools.com/showthread.php
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>PS: I dont want to start a thread with you, so plz lets stop it here.
 >>>>
 >>>>Nick
 >>>>
 >>>>"IONWORX Tech." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>Hello Nick,
 >>>>>
 >>>>>I would like to answer about your answers
 >>>>>
 >>>>>>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>>>>>while
 >>>>>>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is
 >>>>>>on
 >>>>>>level 6.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Well I think you are wrong in your comparaison, it is more easy to
 >>>>>create a generic unpacker for PE Cryptor (like AsProtect and Themida)
 >>>>>or others than Native Delphi Protection. When you used VCL Licensing
 >>>>>Protection, you have
 >>>>>more security, first because no generic unpacker are available so
 >>>>>need to spent time, second you customize protection.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Maybe you need to read the latest news ;-)
 >>>>>www.exetools.com/forum/forumdisplay.php
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the
 >>>>>>one
 >>>>>>that Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>>>>>decompiles
 >>>>>>it to ASM.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>About Themida Protector, don't protect the source code at all, only
 >>>>>patching the executable file.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>About Themida Security, I should you to read this article :
 >>>>>ntoskrnl.altervista.org/articles/antimida_1.0.htm
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile -
 >>>>>>something that
 >>>>>>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for
 >>>>>>protecting
 >>>>>>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code
 >>>>>>of
 >>>>>>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear
 >>>>>>now. No
 >>>>>>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>>>>>minutes away.
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Wrong again, even if the SecureCode source code is available, it's
 >>>>>very hard to retrieve original source code without a good key,
 >>>>>example RSA encryption system (RC4, RC5, RC6, PKI) sources are
 >>>>>available that mean the security are compromise ? No I don't think.
 >>>>>;-)
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>Best regards,
 >>>>>IONWORX Tech.
 >>>>>XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 >>>>>www.ionworx.com
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de
 >>>>>news:
 >>>>>XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>Have you ever done debugging in your life? I mean real debugging, of
 >>>>>>packed/protected EXE. Not the debugging inside Delphi's IDE.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>If you do, then you will realize than IceLicense is just on level 2
 >>>>>>while
 >>>>>>ASProtect with so many security options and antidebugging stuff is
 >>>>>>on
 >>>>>>level 6.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>Encrypting sections of code with the BEST and more SECURE algorithm
 >>>>>>in the
 >>>>>>world is not an issue. Soon or late they will be decrypted (in
 >>>>>>memory) to
 >>>>>>be executed. Then, the cracker will get that image and he will bring
 >>>>>>to
 >>>>>>life a new executable, the well known "unpacked" version.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>So its better to learn how to defeat those debug tools crackers use
 >>>>>>(Olly,
 >>>>>>SoftIce etc) rathen than messing with encryptions that soon or late
 >>>>>>will
 >>>>>>be decrypted and the real instructions will be visible.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>The only way to protect your software in source code level is the
 >>>>>>one that
 >>>>>>Themida of Oreans (www.oreans.com) does. It takes the EXE and
 >>>>>>decompiles
 >>>>>>it to ASM. Then it starts playing with the code, adding garbage
 >>>>>>code,
 >>>>>>changing code position, encrypting some blocks. Note that the
 >>>>>>garbage code
 >>>>>>looks like the real code because it actually copies blocks from
 >>>>>>other
 >>>>>>parts of code and put them in random parts inside the exe. Then this
 >>>>>>ASM
 >>>>>>file is agained compiled with an embedded compiler and what we have
 >>>>>>is a
 >>>>>>new executable. That executable is entirely encrypted and the
 >>>>>>decryption
 >>>>>>routines are inside included in that shield. Debugging of that kind
 >>>>>>of
 >>>>>>apps are real pains because if you manage to get the decrypted
 >>>>>>instructions (code) you have to read 8.000 instructions and only the
 >>>>>>1.000
 >>>>>>are the useful ones.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>Ionworx has a great management and business image/profile -
 >>>>>>something that
 >>>>>>other similar projects must improve. But thats not enough for
 >>>>>>protecting
 >>>>>>files. Also, dont forget that IonWorx can give you the source code
 >>>>>>of
 >>>>>>SecureCode and look at this... here it is... everything is clear
 >>>>>>now. No
 >>>>>>need to study. Everything is clear and the solution to attack is 30
 >>>>>>minutes away.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>Btw, the new version of ExeCryptor
 >>>>>>(www.strongbit.com/execryptor.asp) is a real pain according
 >>>>>>to
 >>>>>>crackers. There are some cracking forums you can read (witthout
 >>>>>>post).
 >>>>>>They are talking every day about the protections. You can read very
 >>>>>>interesting things there that will definately change your mind.
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>Nick
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>news:42811f3e$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>Undoubtedly so. :^) Does ASProtect SKE have something comparable
 >>>>>>>to the
 >>>>>>>Ionworx Secure Code, for encrypting sections of code?
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>Van
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>>Yes. Maybe I know something more :)
 >>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>>"TJC Support" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>>>"Nick Rollas" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
 >>>>>>>>>news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
 >>>>>>>>>>Only the new ASProtect SKE (v2) covers all those details.
 >>>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>>>Boy, you sure can not tell that from looking at their website.
 >>>>>>>>>Very
 >>>>>>>>>little information available.
 >>>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>>>Van
 >>>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>>
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >
 >