Board index » delphi » Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog


2008-05-10 02:10:12 AM
delphi129
David Dean [CodeGear] writes:
Quote
In article <48238e2d$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>,
"Brion L. Webster" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:

>Most of the people in charge of Delphi and BCB have been the
>same since Delphi 7, folks.

I was a C++ customer for seven years before becoming a CodeGear
employee. The people who I was must frustrated with as a customer are
all gone. And the product managers for Delphi and C++Builder didn't
start until 2006 and 2007 respectively. They are the ones who are
driving where we are going and are really moving those products in the
right direction.
OK, who works above the Product Manager level?
Who was responsible for running the Kylix Community Project? My
understanding is the Product Managers have to run everything by him. Or
has Swindell left the building?
I can not recall what Del Chiaro's position was, ISTR it was also above the
Product Manager level, but he acts as Product Manager in the absence of
having hired one full time. I actually like Tim, he's always come through
for things for me. Just pointing out that a lot of the senior staff are
still there, regardless of Alisdair and Nick's relatively recent additions.
New sailors don't tell the skipper to change the course of the ship.
Heck, a new manager often can not actually get a team to do anything
different if they don't want to. I have high hopes for private ownership
separating quarterly earnings statements from product release cycles, but
I don't know how much faith I have in the skipper.
I'm gravely concerned over Delphi for PHP, both as a naming dilution of
the Delphi brand, and as a, IMO, awful release 1 product, and I am starting
to see posts that Release 2.0 has some pretty silly regressions.
JBuilder 2008 - release quality is not where it should have been.
JBuilder is a flagship product for CodeGear. Darn it, it was written in
Delphi to start with, it was awesome enough for Oracle to license it for
JDeveloper, how in the world could CodeGear have let it get sloppy?
Much like Fox Mulder, I want to believe. But hopefully, unlike Fox,
you'll actually give me tangible evidence.
--
-Brion
There's no such thing as 'one, true way;'
- Mercedes Lackey
 
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

Allen Bauer (CodeGear) writes:
Quote
I use Delphi with the defaults. And I also have dual monitors. However,
you're hyperbole is tending to dilute your message. "None of the R&D
folks" is just not true.
I would very much like to know any one person who runs Delphi (or BCB) in
undocked mode with dual monitors in R&D or QA.
Quote
I know there is a contingent of customers that still prefer the classic
style. However, our research indicates this is a shrinking minority.
I'm sorry, but that is clear from the data we're getting. There may
come a time when the return on investment of maintaining both modes
becomes too little to justify. I know this doesn't help you, but since
we're being "brutally honest" here. ;-)
I appreciate that. Of course, you pay attention to the statistics that
say what you want to hear. One of the statistics is that the majority of
customers don't install 3rd party components. Might as well forget that
whole OpenToolsAPI then, right? As long as we're playing with
statistics... ;-)
Quote
I know it is not the same thing, but have you tried to use the little
"preview pane" in the lower right corner of the designer page? You can
mouse over it and grab the upper left corner and make it larger (it
will shrink back when the mouse isn't over it). You can also drag the
active form around on it to explicitly set the screen position if you
do want poDesigned.
The illustration I was giving was being able to see something in the
background, lower on the Z order, behind Delphi, while programming in
Delphi. I can do that in undocked mode, not in docked mode, unless I
missed something. I mention poDesigned just because I was aware of the
preview pane/0,0 change and it *wasn't* relevant to being able to see
through to a lower Z order.
Quote
I presume this request is in QC? Campaign for votes and we'll take it
under advi{*word*224}t.
I believe it is in RAID. I am tired of campaigning for it. Comments like
the following make it pretty clear that you're not open to customer
feedback on the issue.
Quote
We'd also like to make the WP even more generally
useful and a more integral part of the whole IDE "experience." What if
it displayed information and metrics about your current project? What
about things like your current task list, defect lists, and other bits
of "team" information. Have you taken a look at what JBuilder is doing
with Team Insight and Project Assist?
By all means, continue to make the Welcome Page more usable and feature
friendly. But if I don't like it, let me turn it off. Right now,
starting Delphi with the -ns and -np options do some funny things, or
maybe it is just me running in undocked mode. When I dip into coding, I
generally know what I am trying to do, and I don't want to dilly dally.
Again, I am pretty sure this is recorded somewhere, and I have explained ad
nauseum, been backed up by other people, and feel like I have been written
off.
Quote
We're working on it. it is getting shiner all the time :-).
Yay! Waiting on my D2008 box, but please, please, please, please - leave
it in the tumbler an extra cycle. Stick with "When it is Ready".
--
-Brion
There's no such thing as 'one, true way;'
- Mercedes Lackey
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

Brion L. Webster writes:
Quote
Allen Bauer (CodeGear) writes:

>I use Delphi with the defaults. And I also have dual monitors.
>However, you're hyperbole is tending to dilute your message. "None
>of the R&D folks" is just not true.

I would very much like to know any one person who runs Delphi (or
BCB) in undocked mode with dual monitors in R&D or QA.
I will try to find out. It may not be all day, every day, but it does
happen.
Quote
>I know there is a contingent of customers that still prefer the
>classic style. However, our research indicates this is a shrinking
>minority. I am sorry, but that is clear from the data we're
>getting. There may come a time when the return on investment of
>maintaining both modes becomes too little to justify. I know this
>doesn't help you, but since we're being "brutally honest" here. ;-)

I appreciate that. Of course, you pay attention to the statistics
that say what you want to hear. One of the statistics is that the
majority of customers don't install 3rd party components. Might as
well forget that whole OpenToolsAPI then, right? As long as we're
playing with statistics... ;-)
How do you know what I "want to hear?" What *I* "want to hear" is that
everyone is 100% pleased with the product, buys every release and we
have no bugs. Oh, if only life were than simple ;-). There have been
many times that we've been very surprised at some of the statistics,
and have reacted accordingly.
As far as the OTA, it is used more and more internally, so it exists on
a much different plane.
Quote
>I know it is not the same thing, but have you tried to use the little
>"preview pane" in the lower right corner of the designer page? You
>can mouse over it and grab the upper left corner and make it larger
>(it will shrink back when the mouse isn't over it). You can also
>drag the active form around on it to explicitly set the screen
>position if you do want poDesigned.

The illustration I was giving was being able to see something in the
background, lower on the Z order, behind Delphi, while programming in
Delphi. I can do that in undocked mode, not in docked mode, unless I
missed something. I mention poDesigned just because I was aware of
the preview pane/0,0 change and it wasn't relevant to being able to
see through to a lower Z order.
In that case, yes, I agree the current layout makes that impossible.
Quote
>I presume this request is in QC? Campaign for votes and we'll take
>it under advi{*word*224}t.

I believe it is in RAID. I am tired of campaigning for it. Comments
like the following make it pretty clear that you're not open to
customer feedback on the issue.
We are very open to feedback. However, we have to take an aggregate
*all* customer feedback and make the best decisions we can. Your
opinion is just as valid as someone whose opionion is the opposite. We
have to make judgement calls all the time. I know this issue is very
important to you specifically, and we *do* take that into consideration.
Quote
>We'd also like to make the WP even more generally
>useful and a more integral part of the whole IDE "experience." What
>if it displayed information and metrics about your current project?
>What about things like your current task list, defect lists, and
>other bits of "team" information. Have you taken a look at what
>JBuilder is doing with Team Insight and Project Assist?

By all means, continue to make the Welcome Page more usable and
feature friendly. But if I don't like it, let me turn it off. Right
now, starting Delphi with the -ns and -np options do some funny
things, or maybe it is just me running in undocked mode. When I dip
into coding, I generally know what I am trying to do, and I don't want
to dilly dally. Again, I am pretty sure this is recorded somewhere,
and I have explained ad nauseum, been backed up by other people, and
feel like I have been written off.
I will try to find out if an option to turn off the WP is in the
backlog. It probably is, I just don't know where it sits in the
priority pipeline.
Quote
>We're working on it. it is getting shiner all the time :-).

Yay! Waiting on my D2008 box, but please, please, please, please -
leave it in the tumbler an extra cycle. Stick with "When it is Ready".
I guess that is better than "hanging it out to dry" LOL!
--
Allen Bauer
CodeGear
Chief Scientist
blogs.borland.com/abauer
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

David Dean [CodeGear] writes:
Quote
I was a C++ customer for seven years before becoming a CodeGear
employee. The people who I was must frustrated with as a customer are
all gone. And the product managers for Delphi and C++Builder didn't
start until 2006 and 2007 respectively. They are the ones who are
driving where we are going and are really moving those products in the
right direction.
For whatever it is worth, I fully expect this post to be cancelled.
You point out the Product Manager for Delphi as a good thing, and I know
many of the folks on this forum are enamoured with him. I appreciate that
he appears in "public", that there is much more communication than before,
I think these are very good things.
However...
I absolutely detest what I perceive as high-handed treatment of people or
issues he dislikes. If he doesn't like the argument, he changes the
terms, or chooses not to reply, or nitpicks poor wording choices. It got
to the point where he promised to answer questions and chose not to post
any response at all. So yes, I question his personal ethics and
integrity, and by extension, the company he represents.
I was very concerned that a former TeamB champion of WebSnap, who had a
history of behaving that way on the fora, would be selected as the person
to lead the product I care so deeply about. His behavior since that
selection, especially wrt to me personally, has just confirmed those
concerns.
It doesn't help that we're diametrically opposed on the value of things
like documentation, although I am gaining hope that maybe, just maybe, the
RAD group might put something like the Object Pascal Language Guide on
lulu.com for those of us who'd pay for it.
I've defended the Product Manager in the TeamB days as a good contributor
in internet based fora, and a decent guy in person. Meeting him at
BorCons the dislike I would developed for the on-line persona abated, but for
whatever reason, the communication style expressed in these fora and his
previous personal blogs just aggravates me to no end. Now that I am his
customer, I can not just choose to ignore it.
--
-Brion
There's no such thing as 'one, true way;'
- Mercedes Lackey
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

Allen Bauer (CodeGear) writes:
Quote
Brion L. Webster writes:

>I would very much like to know any one person who runs Delphi (or
>BCB) in undocked mode with dual monitors in R&D or QA.

I will try to find out. It may not be all day, every day, but it does
happen.
I really would appreciate it - obviously it is important to me, even if
it's an email follow up, just that a person does one day a week would be
very reassuring. You just don't run into the stuff that happens unless
you run it that way.
Quote
How do you know what I "want to hear?" What I "want to hear" is that
everyone is 100% pleased with the product, buys every release and we
have no bugs. Oh, if only life were than simple ;-). There have been
many times that we've been very surprised at some of the statistics,
and have reacted accordingly.
I truly didn't mean to offend, it sounds like I did, and I apologize. I'd
like to hear those things too.
Quote
As far as the OTA, it is used more and more internally, so it exists on
a much different plane.
Ray L. would be pleased... oh, wait... documented... ;-) Sorry, couldn't
resist.
Quote
In that case, yes, I agree the current layout makes that impossible.
That's a huge issue for me, it is a frequent, normal use mode.
Quote
We are very open to feedback. However, we have to take an aggregate
*all* customer feedback and make the best decisions we can. Your
opinion is just as valid as someone whose opionion is the opposite. We
have to make judgement calls all the time. I know this issue is very
important to you specifically, and we do take that into consideration.
Sounds much like the bug surface area spider chart blog you posted a while
back. I just get frustrated hearing (on this particular issue) almost the
same response as SteveT - ok, yes, I can see you want to turn off the
Welcome Page, but how bout if I just make it better? Darn it, listen to
what I am asking for, stop selling me something I don't want! that is said
somewhat tongue in cheek, I do see value in the WP, and I can see where
many other people would want it. But like I said, when you run -ns-np,
undocked, trying to get to fixing something *right* *now* with no
distractions, all this stuff gets in the way.
Quote
I guess that is better than "hanging it out to dry" LOL!
Hey, before I forget again - thank you very much for participating and
responding. I know it is difficult, for lack of a better term, exposing
yourself to attack out here, but I really appreciate you taking the time
for some back and forth. Sure wish there was another "Meet the Team"
BorCon/CodeCon/EmbarCaDerCon? coming soon!
--
-Brion
There's no such thing as 'one, true way;'
- Mercedes Lackey
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

Brion L. Webster writes:
Quote
Sure wish there was another
"Meet the Team" BorCon/CodeCon/EmbarCaDerCon? coming soon!
+1
The last BorCon was terrific in that aspect.. meeting the combined
DatabaseGear + CodeGear teams F2F at a new EmbarCon would be awesome
(and reassuring).
JoeH
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

Brion L. Webster writes:
Quote
David Dean [CodeGear] writes:

>I was a C++ customer for seven years before becoming a CodeGear
>employee. The people who I was must frustrated with as a customer
>are all gone. And the product managers for Delphi and C++Builder
>didn't start until 2006 and 2007 respectively. They are the ones
>who are driving where we are going and are really moving those
>products in the right direction.

For whatever it is worth, I fully expect this post to be cancelled.

You point out the Product Manager for Delphi as a good thing, and I
know many of the folks on this forum are enamoured with him. I
appreciate that he appears in "public", that there is much more
communication than before, I think these are very good things.

However...

I absolutely detest what I perceive as high-handed treatment of
people or issues he dislikes. If he doesn't like the argument, he
changes the terms, or chooses not to reply, or nitpicks poor wording
choices. It got to the point where he promised to answer questions
and chose not to post any response at all. So yes, I question his
personal ethics and integrity, and by extension, the company he
represents.
Nobody is perfect and everyone has "rough edges" at times. (look at me
;-) To be fair, I have had many conversations with Nick that basically
start with him saying, "Man, I didn't know xxxx about yyyy before
coming here."
Quote
It doesn't help that we're diametrically opposed on the value of
things like documentation, although I am gaining hope that maybe, just
maybe, the RAD group might put something like the Object Pascal
Language Guide on lulu.com for those of us who'd pay for it.
For this one, I cannot disagree more. If anything you and Nick are in
*{*word*268} agreement* on this. Documentation concerns are usually the
first and last thing discussed when working on feature sets, tasks
lists, and other product oriented items. Nearly, *always* driven
vehemently by Nick and Dee. If we could find a switch someplace that
would "make it all better" in one step, you can bet we'd be there.
Quote
I've defended the Product Manager in the TeamB days as a good
contributor in internet based fora, and a decent guy in person.
Meeting him at BorCons the dislike I would developed for the on-line
persona abated, but for whatever reason, the communication style
expressed in these fora and his previous personal blogs just
aggravates me to no end. Now that I am his customer, I can not just
choose to ignore it.
As the saying goes, iron sharpens iron. Just consider this an
opportunity to continue to challenge one another. You don't ever have
to agree to respect each other's viewpoint. And, don't worry, I will tell
Nick the same thing (and have in the past).
--
Allen Bauer
CodeGear
Chief Scientist
blogs.borland.com/abauer
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

Brion L. Webster writes:
Quote
>How do you know what I "want to hear?" What I "want to hear" is that
>everyone is 100% pleased with the product, buys every release and we
>have no bugs. Oh, if only life were than simple ;-). There have
>been many times that we've been very surprised at some of the
>statistics, and have reacted accordingly.

I truly didn't mean to offend, it sounds like I did, and I apologize.
I'd like to hear those things too.
No need to appologize. I was accepting the challenge ;-).
Quote
>In that case, yes, I agree the current layout makes that impossible.

That's a huge issue for me, it is a frequent, normal use mode.
I will need to think about that. Maybe there is a compromise in there.
No guarantees, of course, but I will spend some time thinking about
some possible solutions that would help.
***DISCLAIMER****
This is just off the top of my head, and is in no way a commitment of
any kind.
What if we allowed you to instantiate a copy of each of the forms open
in the embedded designer as they would appear at runtime? The forms
would essentially be "dead" in that all you could do is arrange and
size them on the screen in relation to each other. If they're
poDesigned, moving them would actually place them, otherwise only their
size and relationship to one another would take effect. If you had
another monitor, you could have them all placed on that monitor for a
more uncluttered experience.
Quote
>We are very open to feedback. However, we have to take an aggregate
>*all* customer feedback and make the best decisions we can. Your
>opinion is just as valid as someone whose opionion is the opposite.
>We have to make judgement calls all the time. I know this issue is
>very important to you specifically, and we do take that into
>consideration.

Sounds much like the bug surface area spider chart blog you posted a
while back. I just get frustrated hearing (on this particular issue)
almost the same response as SteveT - ok, yes, I can see you want to
turn off the Welcome Page, but how bout if I just make it better?
Darn it, listen to what I am asking for, stop selling me something I
don't want! that is said somewhat tongue in cheek, I do see value in
the WP, and I can see where many other people would want it. But
like I said, when you run -ns-np, undocked, trying to get to fixing
something right now with no distractions, all this stuff gets in the
way.
I still firmly beleive that measuring the surface area between that of
various interrelated axes is a decent decision making tool. it is not
the *only* tool, but an important one.
Quote
>I guess that is better than "hanging it out to dry" LOL!

Hey, before I forget again - thank you very much for participating
and responding. I know it is difficult, for lack of a better term,
exposing yourself to attack out here, but I really appreciate you
taking the time for some back and forth. Sure wish there was another
"Meet the Team" BorCon/CodeCon/EmbarCaDerCon? coming soon!
I know there is a lot of internal planning going on about where, when,
and how we'll to a live conference. I don't know where things are at, I
just know that it is something discussed regularly. However, we've been
a little distracted lately...
--
Allen Bauer
CodeGear
Chief Scientist
blogs.borland.com/abauer
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

Allen Bauer (CodeGear) writes:
Quote
Brion L. Webster writes:

>It doesn't help that we're diametrically opposed on the value of
>things like documentation, although I am gaining hope that maybe, just
>maybe, the RAD group might put something like the Object Pascal
>Language Guide on lulu.com for those of us who'd pay for it.

For this one, I cannot disagree more. If anything you and Nick are in
*{*word*268} agreement* on this. Documentation concerns are usually the
first and last thing discussed when working on feature sets, tasks
lists, and other product oriented items. Nearly, always driven
vehemently by Nick and Dee. If we could find a switch someplace that
would "make it all better" in one step, you can bet we'd be there.
I'll believe we're in agreement when printed books ship in the box once
more.
I believe the outcry over the documentation in general has shown the value
of documentation, period, and how the "traditional" Delphi help format was
valued. I understood where the doc team was trying to go with the "new"
help format (not talking WinHelp, here, but the actual content
structuring), but never believed it was the right thing for developers.
As it turned out, the community didn't respond well either.
Probably a minority of us want print formatted help. that is where I think
I'm in the woods, wandering. It helps me to no end to be able to *write*
notes in the margins, or highlight. The tactile action of using my hands
and interacting with the paper does something to burn things in memory
that interacting with Adobe to "highlight" a .pdf doesn't. Going to sit
in a chair under a tree and just turn some pages for a while away from the
flourescent lights and without a laptop really helps. E-readers just
don't do it for me.
I eagerly await the "on line docs", but I want them to be editorially
controlled. And I want print format, version controlled, CodeGear
approved "editions" of the docs synchronized to product releases. I have
faith it'll all come about someday.
--
-Brion
There's no such thing as 'one, true way;'
- Mercedes Lackey
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

Brion L. Webster writes:
Quote
Probably a minority of us want print formatted help. that is where I think I am in the woods, wandering. It helps me
to no end to be able to write notes in the margins, or highlight. The tactile action of using my hands and
interacting with the paper does something to burn things in memory that interacting with Adobe to "highlight" a .pdf
doesn't. Going to sit in a chair under a tree and just turn some pages for a while away from the flourescent lights
and without a laptop really helps. E-readers just don't do it for me.
--
So very true...
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

On 9 May 2008 11:05:18 -0700, Allen Bauer (CodeGear) writes:
Quote
We're working on it. it is getting shiner all the time :-).
Sounds painful.
--
Marc Rohloff [TeamB]
marc -at- marc rohloff -dot- com
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

In article <48249bb7$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>,
"Brion L. Webster" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
You point out the Product Manager for Delphi as a good thing
Actually, I pointed out that those holding the reins of Delphi and
C++Builder has changed since Delphi 7, which is the claim you originally
made.
I won't address the rest of your post because you are entitled to
your opinion in that matter, and it doesn't answer the question that I
asked.
--
David Dean (CodeGear)
Lead C++ QA Engineer
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

Brion L. Webster writes:
Quote
Most of the people in charge of Delphi and BCB have been
the same since Delphi 7, folks.
Not at all.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] www.teamb.com
"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to
the polls." -- George W. Bush
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

"Brion L. Webster" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Allen Bauer (CodeGear) writes:


I've tried running the new style for a fortnight, and gone back. Maybe
that wasn't long enough to give it a fair go. But sometimes I want to see
something in the middle of the monitor, and program around it. That's
just not possible in the new style, and amazingly easy in undocked mode.
Just drag the windows around. Heck, I never use poDesigned, so that is not
an issue for me either.

Give it a little longer trial, Brion. I felt exactly the same way back when
I first installed the BDS2006. I immediately set it back to classic mode
and defined an appropriate layout. While developing and IntraWeb app, I ran
into problems that seemed to be layout related so I switched back to
default. After a few weeks, I found myself liking the new layout more ane
more, even though it made me think of Oracle JDeveloper (I haven't used VB
since 4.0). Your concern about accessing something on the desktop while
coding is still valid but hasn't really been a major roadblock for me. The
only time I have issues is when I have a large form that doesn't fit
comfortably within the confines of the docked environment.
YMMV.
Ray Porter
 

Re: Embarcadero's Director of Product's Blog

"Allen Bauer (CodeGear)" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
***DISCLAIMER****
This is just off the top of my head, and is in no way a commitment of
any kind.

What if we allowed you to instantiate a copy of each of the forms open
in the embedded designer as they would appear at runtime? The forms
would essentially be "dead" in that all you could do is arrange and
size them on the screen in relation to each other. If they're
poDesigned, moving them would actually place them, otherwise only their
size and relationship to one another would take effect. If you had
another monitor, you could have them all placed on that monitor for a
more uncluttered experience.

Personally, I think this is an excellent idea, Allen. It still doesn't
quite address Brion's issue but it would help me out. As I said, the
biggest problem I have is sizing really large forms in the embedded
designer. With the classic style, I could make the form large enough, if
necessary, to overlap the other elements in the IDE (object inspector, etc).
Dragging things around in the design area doesn't quite work as well.
I understand that there is no commitment this will even be examined. It
would be a nice improvement but it is not important enough from my view point
to distract you and your team from more critical enhancements.
Ray Porter