Board index » delphi » Re: 3rd Rail newsgroups.

Re: 3rd Rail newsgroups.


2007-09-22 10:25:58 AM
delphi83
talkin completely out of my butt. just from a very shallow eval.
 
 

Re: 3rd Rail newsgroups.

Not really in my experience. General purpose environments like C++/Java
seem to be more predictable in their gotchas than a "Rad" tool like
rails. I am always weary of any framework that claims to simplify the
nuts and bolts of my logic and experience has taught me the corner cases
end up being as much work as if I had just built the whole thing with a
more general purpose approach. I have no idea if this is the case with
rails but it seems to be doing an awful lot for you automagically and
that usually raises a red flag for me.
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Mike Margerum writes:

>Rails seems like on of those technoligies that makes 80% of your
>project dead simple and then you spend 99% of your time on that last
>20%

Isn't that true for all sorts of programming?

 

Re: 3rd Rail newsgroups.

Michael Swindell (CodeGear) writes:
Quote
>Is that what they're calling it? I dont want to be a negative nancy, but
>isnt '3rd rail' a euphamism for something you dont want to touch?

comparison to the euphamism is very much intentional. even the product
icon/logo is based on the international high voltage warning sign :o) ->
www.grabtherail.com



1. Nice site & idea, Michael ->keep on going.
2. I found it from your blog ->don't assume that because there isn't feedback, your
blog isn't read.
3. Hmmm... Your marketing + communication are, imho:
- targeted mainly on developers who already know Ruby/RoR ->figure out what to do
here... <g>
- very technical ->imho, for a brand new product you must stress much more at what
the product (and its features) is good for - something like <marketing>"3rd Rail
it's THE solution for..." </marketing>, rather than its technical abilities.
Something has been already done, but way to few, imho.
just my 2c,
--
m. th.
 

Re: 3rd Rail newsgroups.

Mike Margerum writes:
Quote
Not really in my experience.
But in mine. The last few percent of the program take the longest time.
OK, 99% is a bit over the top, but the awkward bits always take the
main part of programming.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"A scholar who cherishes the love of comfort is not fit to be
deemed a scholar." -- Lao-Tzu (570?-490? BC)
 

Re: 3rd Rail newsgroups.

On 2007-09-21 22:00:06 +1000, "Bob Dawson" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>said:
Quote
"Diego" wrote
>Hi CodeGearers,
>
>Will we be seeing (soon?) some newsgroups for 3rd Rail?

They've been promised. In the mean time there's
grabtherail.com/forums/

bobD
Thanks for the link. Shames there's no official support forums from
CodeGear for the product.
Cheers,
Diego
 

Re: 3rd Rail newsgroups.

thx. there will be v soon.
-m
"Diego" <diego at somewhere dot com>writes
Quote
On 2007-09-21 22:00:06 +1000, "Bob Dawson" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>said:

>"Diego" wrote
>>Hi CodeGearers,
>>
>>Will we be seeing (soon?) some newsgroups for 3rd Rail?
>
>They've been promised. In the mean time there's
>grabtherail.com/forums/
>
>bobD

Thanks for the link. Shames there's no official support forums from
CodeGear for the product.

Cheers,
Diego

 

Re: 3rd Rail newsgroups.

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, we are initially promoting to RoR developers,
but we'll be bringing tutorials and info online for newcomers to RoR. Rails
is a great framework for building dynamic web sites, and it is fun to program
in. Some of the feeling of discovery in learning Ruby and Rails reminds me
of learning Delphi and VCL in the very beginning. Quite a few smiles and
"wow, it does that automatically? moments. It is a completely different
approach tho, more like code-centric RAD, very cool. You do have to be ok
with "runtime magic" however. Rails does a lot behind the scenes that for
some might take some getting used to "letting go" a little. that is also
where 3rdRail shines, and we'll be doing more and more in the future - as
the more that is done behind the scenes in the framework, the more difficult
it is to maintain and evolve into large scale projects, particularly when
there is more than one developer involved.
Anyhow, thanks again for the feedback. Look for lots more to come in the way
of 3rdRail. We're also working {*word*156} D4PHP updates - this tool and
framework are advancing quickly. Some exciting features and lots of
improvements in the updates.
-m
"m. Th." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
1. Nice site & idea, Michael ->keep on going.

2. I found it from your blog ->don't assume that because there isn't
feedback, your blog isn't read.

3. Hmmm... Your marketing + communication are, imho:

- targeted mainly on developers who already know Ruby/RoR ->figure out
what to do here... <g>

- very technical ->imho, for a brand new product you must stress much
more at what the product (and its features) is good for - something like
<marketing>"3rd Rail it is THE solution for..." </marketing>, rather than
its technical abilities. Something has been already done, but way to few,
imho.

just my 2c,

--

m. th.
 

Re: 3rd Rail newsgroups.

Michael Swindell (CodeGear) writes:
Quote
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, we are initially promoting to RoR developers,
but we'll be bringing tutorials and info online for newcomers to RoR. Rails
is a great framework for building dynamic web sites, and it is fun to program
in. Some of the feeling of discovery in learning Ruby and Rails reminds me
of learning Delphi and VCL in the very beginning. Quite a few smiles and
"wow, it does that automatically? moments. It is a completely different
approach tho, more like code-centric RAD, very cool. You do have to be ok
with "runtime magic" however. Rails does a lot behind the scenes that for
some might take some getting used to "letting go" a little. that is also
where 3rdRail shines, and we'll be doing more and more in the future - as
the more that is done behind the scenes in the framework, the more difficult
it is to maintain and evolve into large scale projects, particularly when
there is more than one developer involved.

1. Imho, today it is the 'framework momentum'. RAD nowadays means mostly Rapid
Application Deployment and the now the common IT thinking is not to "how many
features you application has" but "how adaptive your IT ecosystem is" ie. how quick a
IT ecosystem (code, programmer(s), communications aso.) can respond to an external
request (user request, blind change due a governmental law, hardware change aso.).
So, imho, your job is mainly here, to provide a ready-made _human_ artifacts,
transposed in IT world, ready to use by the average developer, but *without* forcing
him into them - because the reality plane of a developer is quite different sometimes
from the reality of a language designer.
In this light, imho, it is representative that Delphi has received good comments at
www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000940.html
(Do a 'Find on page' for 'Delphi')
...also a framework / good library is very important nowadays because there are many
things which are already standard ("known to be good") but not used by the average
programmer. So, you must provide these, allowing the programmer to concentrate on his
human problem ("what" to do) not "how" to do it.
The gap between the best software engineering practice
and the average practice is very wide ?perhaps wider than in
any other engineering discipline. A tool that disseminates
good practice would be important.
—Fred Brooks
Imho, it is quite actual.
...and this would be the line (rail <g>) on which CodeGear should go, if really it's
a place where developers matter.
2. Inter-culture. Each programming domain / language has its civilization, having its
own system of values(eg. technical ones: speed, low resources consumption aso., human
ones: safe coding (small bug ratio), source control, UI flexibility aso.). You are in
the (almost ?) unique position to have in-house a bunch of such cultures. Why don't
we see more inter-cooperation and transfer of values (where applicable) from one
culture to another? Especially at the language level. Delphi is entire yours. You can
do everything with it. Borrow, 'good practices' in your flagship, without forgetting
to ask before the community for approval (I'm still under Delphi 8 nightmare... <shrug>).
OTOH, we see different teams with different ways of thinking (which is a *good*
thing) but, imho, they are too separated and we see only a flow from Delphi to other
languages. Imho, now it is the time for a reflux.
Quote
Anyhow, thanks again for the feedback. Look for lots more to come in the way
of 3rdRail. We're also working {*word*156} D4PHP updates - this tool and
framework are advancing quickly. Some exciting features and lots of
improvements in the updates.

-m

You're welcome. In fact, it is a symbiotic way of life. We need you and you need us.
We are valuable only together, if we cooperate.
And don't forget that, imho, today it is more important the dynamic value of a IT
asset (ie. the speed of improvement - as you stressed it above) rather than it's
static value (number of features etc.)
just 0.02c++
--
m. th.