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Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat


2003-10-07 05:25:09 AM
delphi282
Peter,
Thank you for taking the time to write this. it is the first thing I have read
that:
a) makes perfect sense
b) stops me shaking in my boots about the demise of win32
I will sleep better tonight!
Best Regards,
Mark Smith
 
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

Quote
So Borland will either have to clone Danny and the the Delphi team,
or concentrate on one thing.
I would vote for cloning <g>.
Borland should not let the Win32 in that mess. They should hire new people to do that stuff. Maybe that will take a little longer -
but it should be done. Otherways Borland will loose the customers' trust in the quality of their producs (They already lost mine).
Why should I buy any product from Borland, if they can choose to abort.
Quote
Go - Borland - Go!
Look back Borland - Look Back!
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

Luigi,
<see comments below>
"Luigi D. Sandon" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
>developers at large corporations. These guys there did write most of
their
>inhouse-applications during the last few years in Java, but now they are
>turning to .NET for frontends and intranet-apps. And that is where these
>IDEs will make most of their revenues.

Ok, I may agree, but some people are asserting "almost all new projects
and
products for Windows will be launched on the .NET-platform". Since now, I
didn't see that trend. Maybe it will increase soon, but I am still waiting
Java to show it.
Just look at Enterprise developers in big fortune 500 companies. All Java
shops nowadays (and some C++, and some .NET, and also some Delphi32, but
pre{*word*109}ly Java).
Quote
Anyway, if you are right Borland is targeting again the Enterprise (as in
Yocam's era), forgetting that Delphi has been used, maybe more outside USA
than within, as a general purpose tool much powerful than VB(Visual Basic) and VB(Visual Basic) like
tools, and wep apps later - mainly used in enterprises to give access to
corporate data - yet not as complex as C++ to learn and use, plus a RAD
approach useful to reduce GUI development times.
Borland is definitely targeting the enterprise nowadays, but that doesnīt
mean they are abandoning small development shops either. They are actually
trying to achieve both, targeting the enterprise while maintaining their old
user base. They are probably targeting the enterprise a bit more then us old
borland customers nowadays, but I do not think that we have to worry about
this. After all someone has to pay for the bills, and if the revenues made
with big fortune 500 customers helps Borland to give them room for continued
Delphi development, that is fine for me.
Letīs have a look on the last couple of press releases from borland (taken
from
www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml ):
1-Oct-2003 2003 Borland Conference to be Held November 2-5 in San
Jose, California
25-Sep-2003 Borland Commends Computer History Museum Tribute to
Company Founder Philippe Kahn
15-Sep-2003 Mobile Industry Welcomes the Launch of Borland
C++BuilderX
15-Sep-2003 Borland Targets World's Largest Class of Software
Developers: Launches Borland C++BuilderX and Borland Enterprise Studio for
C++
10-Sep-2003 Borland Deepens Support for Enterprise Adoption of
Microsoft .NET Framework Technologies: Launches Borland Together Edition for
Microsoft Visual Studio .NET
4-Sep-2003 Borland and IBM Expand Global Agreement to Provide
Enterprise Database Developers with C#Builder for the Microsoft .NET
Framework
3-Sep-2003 Borland Advances J2EE Performance Testing with Launch of
Optimizeit ServerTrace 2.0 DataCenter
21-Aug-2003 Borland Names Brian 'Boz' Elloy Senior Vice President of
Software Products
19-Aug-2003 Borland Appoints Blake Stone as Chief Technology Officer
18-Aug-2003 Borland Software Corporation and Spectrum Systems
Collaborate to Enhance Software Capabilities of Federal Government Agencies
18-Aug-2003 Raytheon Selects Borland Software to Power New Satellite
System for U.S. Government; Performance of Environmental Information System
Accelerated with Borland Technology
Now count the number of times that you find the words "enterprise",
"industry", "j2EE" "c++" and so on in the headlines of the press releases.
Well, I'd say that Borland is definitely targeting the corporate
enterprise developers nowadays, but - different from the "inprise"-vision -
they try to satisfy there old customer base of small development shops at
the same time. While this is not easy, I think they do actually quite well
(Delphi7 is after all a category killer on Win32, leaving VB6 and VC6 in the
dust).
Now letīs have a look in one of their recent Quarterly reports
(biz.yahoo.com/e/030814/borl10-q.html). By the way, in order to
understand Borlands vision I think it is quite valueable to read such
reports very carefully, line by line. There are some pretty boring parts,
but then some other parts will open your eyes immediately.
Some interesting parts about their platform strategy:
". Leadership Across Platforms. We believe that our success hinges, in part,
on our ability to deliver best-in-class solutions across a wide
range of
technology platforms, including Java and .NET. As part of this
commitment,
we released the following new products during the three months
ended June
30, 2003:
o Janeva, a new solution that is designed to enable
cross-platform mobility
by offering companies a secure and scalable means of
linking J2EE and
.NET;
o C#Builder, a completely new Borland product that offers a
comprehensive,
design-driven solution for the development of .NET
applications; and
o JBuilder 9, the most recent version of our leading Java
development
environment which offers users greater integration with
our other
application lifecycle components."Here you can see a clear
focus on delivering on Java and .NET, but this doesnīt mean they are
abandoning other areas at the same time.
Now there is a part where Borland divides all revenues into different
categories. The most interesting for us is the category "Develop" where all
revenues with IDEs and related products are included. Now comes the quote:
" Develop includes two major categories:
Java, which includes JBuilder, Java Studio and Optimizeit, and .NET,
which
includes Delphi, C++Builder, Kylix and C++ Mobile Edition. "
Okay, that means that Borland has internally already substituted products
targeting Windows (Delphi,C++Builder) and Linux (Kylix) into a common .NET
group. Does this make sense to add Win32+Linux products to a .NET group?
Yes, it does, because quite soon most windows revenues will come from their
.NET products (C#Builder, Delphi.NET) and Kylix - while being a product for
Linux - is actually targeting mostly DelphiWin32 developers that want to
play around with Linux, so it is actually a product targeting Windows
developers and therefore belongs to the .NET group as well. .NET is here not
standing for the technical platform, but for the developers associated with
it, meaning Delphi-Win32 and Kylix developers too.
Now another interesting quote from the report:
"Solution Selling. Our move to selling entire application lifecycle
solutions to our customers is designed to result in larger contracts with
our customers. In the three months ended June 30, 2003, we entered into
102 sales contracts over $100,000, up from 93 such contracts in the three
months ended March 31, 2003. In addition, a number of these transactions
in the three months ended June 30, 2003 included multi-product sales. We
believe our transition from single product sales to solution selling will
provide us with an opportunity for growth in the future."
So do you still think they are not targeting enterprise customers? They
actually want to transform from single product sales to solution selling
(meaning selling all their ALM stack as a complete solution). Is there
anything wrong with it? No, as long as they donīt abandon their small
developer customers at the same time, there is nothing wrong with it. It is
actually quite a convincing strategy, if you ask me. If Borland executes its
vision over the next years well, than they will be doing quite well, too.
If Borland really succeeds to be the future switzerland of development, if
they succeed in being a major force in the Java and .NET markets, if they
succeed by not only selling IDEs but also an full integrated ALM stack
including CaliberRM, StarTeam, OptimizeIT, Together, well, then we should
immediately hurry up and buy some borland stock (and hold it over a time
period of 2-3 years)!
Quote
I am working on a complex application for network security, cross
platform.
It is a mix of C/C++ code (for very low level programming, driver/kernel
level) and Delphi/Kylix code (data analysis, storage, and GUI). I have to
work with raw stream of data I have to process, thus using a lot untyped
pointers and assembler code to speed up processing (up to hundreds of
gygabytes per day, we have a 20TB storage system for raw data only).
cool stuff.
Quote
I guess we are not the "common" corporate user. For example, reverse
engineering in .NET is too easy for our requirements. We have a complex
client that cannot be easily developed as an "intranet" app, and Windows
Forms looks too "primitive", and slow too. Until now, I was sure Delphi
could handle the task. If Borland think Delphi must be closer to the old
VB/ASP than C++, we will move to C++. And having cross-platform
requirements, if we have to used a p-code envirnment we will move to Java,
not .NET.
Well, Delphi 7 definitely can handle that task. Delphi.NET will also be able
to handle that task, and the upcoming Delphi7 update in 2004 will be even
better for that. So no reason to get nervous after all.
Quote
Only I would like to know what Borland wants to go today - so I can make my
plans too.
Please allow Borland to change their plans if they have to, after all, they
need to make money selling developer tools, and if the market changes
quickly, they have to adopt to that as fast as possible as well. Only
Microsoft can effort it to hold onto their Roadmap, they do not need to make
any money from selling developer tools, but Borland has to.
Please also donīt forget that Borland is a publically listed company
trading on a stock exchange. They cannot too freely talk about future plans,
without risking any legal action. I think John Kaster already hinted as
expressively as he can (without the lawyers coming after him).
Quoting John Kaster from a post he did yesterday:
"It's quite simple: we thought we could do A and B at the same
time, and now we are doing A, then B"
Do you need any interpretation of this? There is an Delphi7 update coming in
2004, that is for sure, and if the "B" Kaster is talking about coming soon
after the "A", if this "B" is the same "B" that was considered in the first
open letter in April, then there is a high probability that we are not going
to see just a service pack, but a new major release of Delphi Win32 in 2004
;-)
Do not expect Kaster or Thornhill to say this even more verbally, they canīt
and wonīt.
Best regards,
Peter
Quote
--
Luigi D. Sandon
XXXX@XXXXX.COM


 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

Quote
Do you need any interpretation of this? There is an Delphi7 update coming in
2004, that is for sure, and if the "B" Kaster is talking about coming soon
after the "A", if this "B" is the same "B" that was considered in the first
open letter in April, then there is a high probability that we are not going
to see just a service pack, but a new major release of Delphi Win32 in 2004
;-)

Do not expect Kaster or Thornhill to say this even more verbally,
they canīt and wonīt.
They should - in order to reduce confusion.
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) writes:
Quote
and Win98 on my computer for
some of the games my son can not play on his laptop.
Yes, that seems to be the litmus test for an OS. Will it play 'Rugrats
in Paris', or 'Putt Putt enters the Race' <g>
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg_at_ebetonline_dot_com
{$IFDEF Alessandro}Italian{$ELSE}French{$ENDIF} is the language of love.
For everything else there's Delphi.
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

Karlheinz,
they would like to, but they canīt. I guess they really havenīt made a final
decision regarding Win32 yet. In todays fast moving market, it is a good
idea to postpone the decision of what they are going to do after they
release Delphi.NET 1.0 until they got it finally out of the door. And only
after that (meaning end of this year) they will decide, whether they are
allocating their resources to a service pack for Delphi7, a major new
release for Win32 (aka DelphiWin32 8), Delphi.NET 2.0 or C#Builder 2.0.
And even if they have already made such a decision, they couldnīt say so.
Did you ever work for a company that is listed on a public stock market? The
only thing they are allowed to is to give us some hints.
Just look at Johnīs latest hint at
bdn.borland.com/article/0,1410,30423,00.html:
"Delphi 7 will be bundled with Octane. If you purchase Software Assurance
for Octane, your updates will also include the Win32 version of Delphi."
=>Your updates to Octane will also include the Win32 version of Delphi. I
think this is a hint that John Kaster personally sees a high probability for
another major Win32-version. Any more questions?
Best regards,
Peter
"Karlheinz Späth" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
>Do you need any interpretation of this? There is an Delphi7 update
coming in
>2004, that is for sure, and if the "B" Kaster is talking about coming
soon
>after the "A", if this "B" is the same "B" that was considered in the
first
>open letter in April, then there is a high probability that we are not
going
>to see just a service pack, but a new major release of Delphi Win32 in
2004
>;-)
>
>Do not expect Kaster or Thornhill to say this even more verbally,
>they canīt and wonīt.

They should - in order to reduce confusion.


 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

Hello Mark,
you might also read my post on
newsgroups.borland.com/cgi-bin/dnewsweb
lic.delphi.non-technical&item=374328&utag=
I think that Borlandīs push for enterprise customers while continuing to
support their existing longterm customer base with new updates and releases
will be good for all of us.
Maybe you will sleep even better after reading that post, too!
Best regards,
Peter
"Mark Smith" <mark at estimatesoftware dot com>writes
Quote
Peter,

Thank you for taking the time to write this. it is the first thing I've
read
that:

a) makes perfect sense
b) stops me shaking in my boots about the demise of win32

I will sleep better tonight!

Best Regards,
Mark Smith


 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 00:09:13 +0200, "Peter Sleuth" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
writes:
Quote
>
>Ok, I may agree, but some people are asserting "almost all new projects
and
>products for Windows will be launched on the .NET-platform". Since now, I
>didn't see that trend. Maybe it will increase soon, but I am still waiting
>Java to show it.

Just look at Enterprise developers in big fortune 500 companies. All Java
shops nowadays (and some C++, and some .NET, and also some Delphi32, but
pre{*word*109}ly Java).

Suppose I am not an "enterprise developer." Suppose I write
newsreaders, utilities, or whatever targeted at home users. Two
questions:
1. Why would I want to write a .net app? This is a serious question.
I know .net may offer some advantages and language features but Delphi
is plenty nice, does what I need easily, and after 8 years I think I'm
really getting *good* at the language. Writing C# or targetting .net
is not something I would look forward to (understand Delphi satisfies my
needs very well so I am missing the anticipation of some others).
2. Is there any reason to believe that I will *have* to target .net
within 5 years?
If it is the case where .net is attactive to enterprises similarly to
Java I am a) feeling much better ignoring it and b) wondering what all
the hype is about.
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

"ckd" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

Suppose I am not an "enterprise developer." Suppose I write
newsreaders, utilities, or whatever targeted at home users. Two
questions:

1. Why would I want to write a .net app? This is a serious question.
If you want to continue to program in Delphi on 64-bit Windows, you will
have no choice given what we currently know about Delphi.
Quote

2. Is there any reason to believe that I will *have* to target .net
within 5 years?

Yes, if 5 years you will left way behind if you are still programming *only*
on 32-bit.
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

comments below
"ckd" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 00:09:13 +0200, "Peter Sleuth" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
writes:

>>
>>Ok, I may agree, but some people are asserting "almost all new projects
>and
>>products for Windows will be launched on the .NET-platform". Since now,
I
>>didn't see that trend. Maybe it will increase soon, but I am still
waiting
>>Java to show it.
>
>Just look at Enterprise developers in big fortune 500 companies. All Java
>shops nowadays (and some C++, and some .NET, and also some Delphi32, but
>pre{*word*109}ly Java).
>

Suppose I am not an "enterprise developer." Suppose I write
newsreaders, utilities, or whatever targeted at home users. Two
questions:

1. Why would I want to write a .net app? This is a serious question.
I know .net may offer some advantages and language features but Delphi
is plenty nice, does what I need easily, and after 8 years I think I'm
really getting *good* at the language. Writing C# or targetting .net
is not something I would look forward to (understand Delphi satisfies my
needs very well so I am missing the anticipation of some others).

You actually donīt want to write a .NET app then, because for newsreaders
and utilities the advantages for going to .NET are not big enough right now.
Use Delphi7 now, because Delphi7 is the current killer-app for developing
Win32 code.
But you will want Borland to succeed in selling .NET-IDEs such as C#Builder
and Delphi.NET to enterprise customers, because that is where they can make
the most revenue over the next three years. And while you might not care
about the revenue that Borland makes, you should consider that part of this
money will be invested into future Delphi-versions that you might want to
benefit from, too.
Quote
2. Is there any reason to believe that I will *have* to target .net
within 5 years?
Depends on Borlandīs strategy regarding Win64-Delphi compilers. 5 years from
now you will have still quite many users using 32bit-machines running Win32
(XP, Longhorn, whatsoever), but you will also see some 64bit machines being
used by powerusers and gamers and being used in the enterprise for server
applications. If you want to target newsreaders or utilities to 64bit users
then, too, then you would better have either a Borland Delphi for
Win64-compiler or a Borland Delphi.NET-compiler. You will definitely get a
Delphi.NET compiler at the end of this year, that means that 5 years from
now if you want to target your newsreader and utilitities to 64bit-machines
then, you will definitely have that option then. The question remains
whether Borland considers the revenue possibly made by producing a
64-bit-Delphi-Compiler is large enough in order to allow them to make such
an investment. But this question regarding Delphi for Win64 will remain
unanswered for some time ... shortterm focus will be on .NET followed by a
Win32-Delphi update.
Quote
If it is the case where .net is attactive to enterprises similarly to
Java I am a) feeling much better ignoring it and b) wondering what all
the hype is about.
You might currently ignore all that .NET hype then, but you should be happy
to see Borland gaining marketshare on the .NET platform and making some
money there, because this will benefit you over the long-term as well.
Best regards,
Peter
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 02:14:56 +0200, "Peter Sleuth" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
writes:
Quote

But you will want Borland to succeed in selling .NET-IDEs such as C#Builder
Of course I will always root for Borland to succeed regardless of any
other decisions I make. Despite the occasional bit of irritation with
Borland, they are still a pretty cool company ;-)
Quote

Depends on Borlandīs strategy regarding Win64-Delphi compilers. 5 years from
Okay. From your and Dennis' comments it seems like outside of the 64
bit issue, and assuming there are no compelling .net features for me,
there isn't really any reason to make the .net leap.
Wow. Now I am beginning to understand the angst regarding 64bit
compilers. Thanks a lot for the comments!
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

Obvious Conclusion:
1) Delphi .NET will supposedly be the No. 1 Borland tool.
2) The most important goal is, that CIL (.Net Byte code) projects
generated by Borlansd tools can be executed on as many platforms as
possible (Win32, Win64, Linux (many processors), Mac OSX, ...
Borland and other companies, the Linux community and Borlands customers
need to work together to make this happen.
Thus it is not useful if Borland releases versions of .NET compilers that
include features that are not covered by the ISO CIL standard and are
not supported by major third party CIL environment (e.g. MONO or .GNU).
-Michael
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

Try to service pack them...
--
Luigi D. Sandon
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

"Michael Schnell" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

2) The most important goal is, that CIL (.Net Byte code) projects
generated by Borlansd tools can be executed on as many platforms as
possible (Win32, Win64, Linux (many processors), Mac OSX, ...

<snip>
Quote
Thus it is not useful if Borland releases versions of .NET compilers that
include features that are not covered by the ISO CIL standard and are
not supported by major third party CIL environment (e.g. MONO or .GNU).

What sort of features are you referring to? Language features? If so, this
is not as critical as you might think. For example, as I understand it,
Delphi's standard Set type has no direct equivalent in the standard CIL
types. However, there is nothing wrong with using sets in Delphi for .NET
applications - the compiler can generate IL code to perform set operations
in a Delphi application. What you cannot do is pass Sets as parameters to
functions that are to be called by other CIL languages. However, I could be
wrong about this ...
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
www.cfbsoftware.com
 

Re: Delphi Community missing the .NET-boat

Peter,
thank you for your long reply! :-)
Quote
Just look at Enterprise developers in big fortune 500 companies. All Java
Ok, but they do not build "products" they build "projects". How many
"products" not related to Java development or web application exist? Maybe
Together, I have never seen a lot of them. I think there are too many people
already thinking *all* future apps will be .NET apps. I am sure the
corporate and web developer are those who will benefit most from .NET.
Quote
this. After all someone has to pay for the bills, and if the revenues made
with big fortune 500 customers helps Borland to give them room for
continued
Hope Borland can sell their tools to them. They were using MS tools when
they were much less powerful than Borland's, let see what happens now that
they are almost on par and cost less. Big companies buy a lot of licenses,
and unless Borland make huge discount to them, VS is far cheaper. And while
in "small" shops tech people choose what to buy, in big companies managers
who doesn't develop but have a budget choose tools... there were a survey
here in Italy: Delphi and C++ Builder were much more used in small and
medium sized companies than in large ones. Borland risk to lose one market
while trying to "conquer" another one that is in the hands of MS or IBM.
JBuilder was able to do it, but there weren't already an "established" tool
like VS is in Windows market, and JBuilder too is losing something to
JDeveloper and Eclipse, backed by Oracle and IBM, and that are cheaper!
Quote
actually want to transform from single product sales to solution selling
(meaning selling all their ALM stack as a complete solution). Is there
I am afraid the development tools, except JBuilder maybe, are the "weak
side" of this strategy. ALM tools are already well integrated with VS and
other tools, therefore they can easily sell Together or StarTeam to MS
shops, but I don't believe they can boost Delphi or CBuilderX sales. In the
MS "roadmap" web page they say they will update SourceSafe for "small
development teams", I guess that means they will rely on "someone else"
tools for SCM and the like.
In the long run, if Borland tools does not offer a real advantage over MS
tools, they will disappear. If CBuilderX can fill some niche market due to
its large cross-platform support, Delphi may suffer a lot, if it becomes a
.NET tool.
Quote
Well, Delphi 7 definitely can handle that task. Delphi.NET will also be
able
to handle that task, and the upcoming Delphi7 update in 2004 will be even
better for that. So no reason to get nervous after all.
D7 can handle the task after workarounding some bugs that should have not be
there for so long... :-) Delphi.NET (or C#) can not handle the task because of
cross-platform support and GUI requirements. I am happy there will be un
update at last, but some clouds about its future remain, until a clear
statement is made about native apps (as long as they can be made) and
cross-platform support.
Quote
need to make money selling developer tools, and if the market changes
quickly, they have to adopt to that as fast as possible as well. Only
Is marketing changing quickly, or is MS that want it to change quickly
forcing everyone to use .NET even when there is no real advantage? I have
the feeling .NET is a way to cirmcumvent antitrust rules partly, to level
the field ot 3rd party tools and VB-ize all development. Moreover VS itself
will gain support of a lot of 3rd party components that were not available
for old tools. I call it the "black hole approach".
Quote
Microsoft can effort it to hold onto their Roadmap, they do not need to
make
any money from selling developer tools, but Borland has to.
I undestand it very well, that is why I never complained about Borland higher
prices. Of course I will not buy again Borland tools if they do not suit my
products needs. After almost twenty years I will feel a little
uncomfortable...
Quote
Please also donīt forget that Borland is a publically listed company
trading on a stock exchange. They cannot too freely talk about future
plans,
without risking any legal action. I think John Kaster already hinted as
Isn't MS publically listed company trading on a stock exchange too? They
speak much more about their plans.
Quote
Please allow Borland to change their plans if they have to, after all,
they
Of course, but I need to change mine then. I am only afraid my damage will
be greater than their.
Best regards,
--
Luigi D. Sandon