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Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!


2004-12-14 07:18:55 PM
delphi33
Thomas Lambert writes:
Quote
don't you think that because you're currently using D2005, you
want to get an offensive position against me? all of us, even
me that know that the current release contains tones of bugs,
doesn't it?!
a) I am not currently using D2005, haven't even bought it, but have
downloaded and tested the trial version.
b) I don't intend to be 'offensive', if you really mean that literally.
I think however that just about every single assertion in your post is
demonstrably wrong (except for the one about there being bugs in D2005).
Quote
hehe, what you said was about interface and the editor, not
Win32 programming. iac, these features are quite well designed
but it pays for it a lot. SLOOOOOOW UI!
What do you understand by 'Win32 programming' then?
For me, the main value of the Delphi IDE is the productivity functions
for a programmer, and the compiler.
Quote
plz read my posts first before replying to them. that was an
issue that I have mentioned in my second post, I am talking about
2GHz processor and 1GB of RAM.
Sorry, I responded only to your original post. The "corrective" function
of the 2nd and 3rd posts had escaped me, I thought you were just trying
to re-emphasize your main points.
--
Kristofer
 
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Hrvoje Brozovic writes:
Quote
Well, I never expected BASM routines to be inlined.
generally, compiler don't know what ASM code is doing,
neither ASM code know situation from where it is called.
Quite right, the issue with inlining BASM is for the really short/small
routines that the compiler just doesn't get right when you use standard
Pascal. The goal with inlining BASM routines is to remove the CALL/RET
overhead, not to take advantage of the compiler being able to avoid
calling convention setup and overhead.
I like the added effort the Delphi team went through to make inlining
more than just dropping code in place, but for BASM I think all of us
would have accepted that the compiler /would/ have been simply dropping
the compiled ASM in place, parameter setup, register saving, and all.
Will
--
Want a 64-bit Delphi compiler for AMD64 / IA-32e? Vote here--
qc.borland.com/wc/wc.exe/details
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Quote
>Huh? How about
>- Refactoring
>- Function inlining
>- For-in-do syntax
>- History view
>- Integrated unit testing
>- Code folding
>- SyncEdit
>- Help insight
>- Improved component pallette
>- Improved project manager
>- Improved de{*word*81}
>- etc.?

hehe, what you said was about interface and the editor, not
Win32 programming. iac, these features are quite well designed
but it pays for it a lot. SLOOOOOOW UI!

At least "Function inlining", "For-in-do syntax" mentioned above, as well as
- nested Types
- nested Classes
- nested Constants
and I am sure there are more of them. Those *are* extensions to the Win32
language!
--
Regards,
Daniel
Co-Admin: www.delphipraxis.net
* * The German Delphi Forum * *
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

"Ingvar Nilsen" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Thomas Lambert writes:
>i'm using 2GHz (not 200MHz - that was an issue) and 1GB of RAM,
>but it runs veeeeeeeery slooooooow. 2minutes!!!
RAM and CPU are not the only factors that count regarding speed on a PC.
Indeed, I have an IBM ThinkPad T42p with a 2 GHz Centrino processor and 2 GB
of RAM, so roughly the same specs as Thomas' computer. Yet, in my case it
"only" took 30-40 seconds to load D2005 (Pro) the first time and 10-15
seconds thereafter. The reason, I'd think is that my hard disk is
defragmented and is a 7200 rpm one. I am quite confident that it does make a
hell of a difference.
Alan.
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Hi Thomas,
I sympathize with your opinion, but I think your subject line is more
provocative than constructive. Was that your intention?
Are your observations from using the product? If your opinion is based
on posts in this news group, I hope you will take some time to look at
some of the more positive coverage. If you weed out the posts that
don't contribute real information (you know who you are), I think
you'll get a much better picture of the actual problems and benefits.
I have used both the Borcon Diamondback preview and the released
product with production code and I really like Delphi 2005. There are
definitely problems, but I am not seeing a single show stopper, and the
inconveniences don't come close to outweighing the benefits. It's
still the best tool for the development I do. If it weren't, I
wouldn't use it.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Craig writes:
Quote
And yet, the company is financially doing better than ever. Far better
than 10-15 years ago when the company was the love child of programmer
in the world. Maybe thats why Dale Fuller is running the company and
not us.
The demand for programming tools has probably increase at least 5 times
( just estimating ) since 1994.
That could also account for the increase in revenue.
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Alan Garny writes:
{snip}
Quote
Indeed, I have an IBM ThinkPad T42p with a 2 GHz Centrino processor and 2 GB
of RAM, so roughly the same specs as Thomas' computer. Yet, in my case it
"only" took 30-40 seconds to load D2005 (Pro) the first time and 10-15
seconds thereafter. The reason, I'd think is that my hard disk is
defragmented and is a 7200 rpm one. I am quite confident that it does make a
hell of a difference.

Alan.


I'm sure the fast disk is the big difference. My computer is only an
athlon XP (1400) w 512M RAM and 7200rmp disk. D2005 loads in 30 - 45
sec as well.
Bill
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Quote
1) No operator overloading and records with methods (which raises the
issue of Delphi/Win32's syntax being out of sync with Delphi/.NET's
syntax).
As does support for attributes in .NET. Do you think that is a major
issue, though? Surely any migration is going to be from Win32 to .NET
and not vice versa?
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
_______________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Falafel Software www.falafelsoft.com
_______________________________________________
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Jim Cooper writes:
Quote
>1) No operator overloading and records with methods (which raises
>the issue of Delphi/Win32's syntax being out of sync with
>Delphi/.NET's syntax).

As does support for attributes in .NET.
Danny mentioned in his blog the pains of implementing attributes in
Win32. It'd be nice, of course, but I suspect the usefulness would be
a bit more limited than it would be with .NET.
Quote
Do you think that is a major issue, though? Surely any migration
is going to be from Win32 to .NET and not vice versa?
I was thinking of the people interested in maintaining Win32 /and/ .NET
versions of their software. But regardless, the syntax across these
platforms (Win32, Linux, CLR) should not differ in these drastic kinds
of ways. IMHO it was a mistake to ship Delphi 2005 without operator
overloading and records with methods for Win32. Just as it'd be a
mistake to release a new version of Kylix lacking these syntax
additions.
Will
--
Want a 64-bit Delphi compiler for AMD64 / IA-32e? Vote here--
qc.borland.com/wc/wc.exe/details
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Ingvar Nilsen writes:
Quote
But, out of curiosity, none of the items above add particularly to the
end user's experience, <snip>
End user = customer who buys the final software made with Delphi.
What sort of things would? New components? More eye candy?
(ok, supposedly inlining = performance if you use it sensibly)...
The primary factor in determining end-user experience are the designs
that we developers create ( = usability), I can not think of anything that
Borland could do to really help in this respect. The best they can do is
to ensure that the RTL and VCL don't get in our way by being too
buggy, slow, or butt-ugly, none of which I believe is the case today.
Sure I still have a wishlist of things they could do in the VCL to make
my programming task easier, but the end user would never notice either
way.
Could you cite an example of major new "end-user-experience-enhancing
technology" that was provided with former releases of Delphi?
--
Kristofer
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Sorry you are disappointed Thomas. I am not -
its a great new version IMO, for both w32 and .net.
- refactoring
- code folding
- for each in
- dunit/nunit
- asp.net that works
- ECO2
- etc, etc, etc
JoeH
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Quote
There are
definitely problems, but I am not seeing a single show stopper, and the
inconveniences don't come close to outweighing the benefits.
"good enough software" ;)
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

"Alan Garny" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
The reason, I'd think is that my hard disk is
Quote
defragmented and is a 7200 rpm one. I am quite confident that it does make a
hell of a difference.
I don't think so.
My PC use a P4-3.2Ghz with 1Gb Ram and a very fast
harddisk (Western Digital 10000 rpm with SATA). It
is defragmented,the registry too. To load Delphi and
some additional packages lasts over 130 sec.
It seemed to me, that D2005 hung sometimes.
Here is an example:
16:50:03 Set Information ... ntuser.dat.log
16:50:21 Open ... projects\bpl\ Open Directory Access:All
I don't know what happend between the two file accesses
I've tested it with the File Monitor from
www.sysinternals.com.
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

Quote
Danny mentioned in his blog the pains of implementing attributes in
Win32. It'd be nice, of course, but I suspect the usefulness would be
a bit more limited than it would be with .NET.
Well, you need proper reflection to make use of them, not just RTTI. If
we had that, they'd be just as useful :-) Not gonna get it, of course :-)
Quote
I was thinking of the people interested in maintaining Win32 /and/ .NET
versions of their software. But regardless, the syntax across these
platforms (Win32, Linux, CLR) should not differ in these drastic kinds
of ways.
But attributes are an essential part of .NET, so that by itself will
mean code won't work across platforms like that.
I'm not convinced there is a big market for people maintaining a win32
and a .NET version of their software. After all, both would be targeting
the same OS (Mono is a red herring, IMO), so why bother having both?
Quote
IMHO it was a mistake to ship Delphi 2005 without operator
overloading and records with methods for Win32. Just as it'd be a
mistake to release a new version of Kylix lacking these syntax
additions.
IMO it was a mistake to release any version of Kylix, and further
resources spent there seem wasted to me :-)
I still don't see your point. If it was only operator overloading and
records with methods you could have code for Win32 and .NET. Just don't
use those things on the .NET side and all is well :-) You have that
choice for those two features, whereas you will quickly run into the
need to use attributes in .NET, and we'll never have them in Win32, so
you're stuffed anyway.
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
_______________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Falafel Software www.falafelsoft.com
_______________________________________________
 

Re: D2005 - A Hated Product!

"Joachim Römke" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
"Alan Garny" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
The reason, I'd think is that my hard disk is
>defragmented and is a 7200 rpm one. I am quite confident that it does
>make a>>hell of a difference.
I don't think so.
My PC use a P4-3.2Ghz with 1Gb Ram and a very fast
harddisk (Western Digital 10000 rpm with SATA). It
is defragmented,the registry too. To load Delphi and
some additional packages lasts over 130 sec.

It seemed to me, that D2005 hung sometimes.
Here is an example:
16:50:03 Set Information ... ntuser.dat.log
16:50:21 Open ... projects\bpl\ Open Directory Access:All
I don't know what happend between the two file accesses

I've tested it with the File Monitor from
www.sysinternals.com.
Very weird. I'd really have thought that the hard disk and, obviously,
enough memory would do it. Hmm... strange...
Alan.