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PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?

In article <55f4ec$...@mars.mahidol.ac.th>,
Niwat Punanwarakorn  <g3736...@mucc.mahidol.ac.th> wrote:
:       How do you think about thesituation of PASCAL Language ?
:How do you think when we comapare this language with another, like as
:VISUAL C
:How do you think ? I would like to know about it much, coz I think PASCALL
:is going to DIE... I used it more than 5 years.

* Advocacy alert * Advocacy alert * Advocacy alert * Advocacy alert *

   All the best, Timo

....................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi   Co-moderator of news:comp.archives.msdos.announce
Moderating at ftp:// & http://garbo.uwasa.fi archives  193.166.120.5
Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa
mailto:t...@uwasa.fi  <URL:http://uwasa.fi/~ts>  ; FIN-65101,  Finland

 

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


Quote
>  How do you think about the situation of PASCAL Language ?
> How do you think when we comapare this language with another, like
> as VISUAL C How do you think ? I would like to know about it much,
> coz I think PASCALL is going to DIE... I used it more than 5 years.
>  Please, let me know your thought.
> Ps. what's the best compiler in your thought... ?   and why ?

The situation of the Pascal language is similar to Schroedingers cat
- Both quite dead and quite alive.  The original Pascal is absolutely
dead.  But that is mostly because Pascal has descended and been
"replaced" by it's newer and more robust dialects.

For example, Delphi (a Borland product with a dialect of Pascal
called Borland Object Pascal) features Exceptions, objects,
properties, components (reusable-building blocks), etc...  And as I
understand, Delphi is a much more productive application development
environment than either Visual Basic and of course, a lot more
productive than Visual C/C++.

I would have to say almost any Pascal compiler is more efficient
than any C or C++ compiler... but that doesn't mean the Pascal
compiler generates faster or better code than that same C/C++
compiler.  It is just that Pascal is simpler to compile than C.  And
Visual Basic doesn't ever get compiled, so in my opinion, Delphi
beats the rest.  

Of course, almost every relevant award for technical excellence was
awarded to Delphi and not to it's competitors, so I guess most people
agree.

Of course, everyone keeps saying "well, Visual Basic 5 will...".  
That is so counterproductive.  Of course VB 5 will be better than VB
4, but if we follow that logic, Delphi 2.0 is MUCH better than VB
3.0.  And I am sure that VB 5 will pale in comparison to Delphi 97
(if you want to compare vaporware to vaporware, which is the only
fair comparison).

Tim...

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


How is the situation?
Nearly all professional PC-Applications and I think not only in Word, Excel,
etc., are written in C. More and more people moved over from Pascal, FORTRAN,
COBOL to C. I will not talk about advantages or disadvantages and why, just
about the facts.
With Windows programming and a separation in front end and back end, visual
basaed so called Rapid Application Development Tools (RAD) are getting more and
more important. C obviously cant give such an impact. Visual C cant reach Visual
Basic or Delphi.
Delphi itself is really great, but it cames about 2 years too late. Many
programmers incl. professional one are using Visual Basic and it's always tough
to convince them that Delphi is much better.

The main problem is who supports Pascal?
Bill G. doesnt! Forget MS-Pascal 4.0.  Forget GNU and other {*word*118} compilers.
There is only Borland with their Delphi. The next problem is the financial
problems Borland has. Who knows how long this company will exist? That's a
reason some professional programmers dont move to Delphi, because how long is
there support, upgrade and so on?

But even when Borland will die and professional programming with Pascal too,
Pascal will survive similar to latin. It is a dead language, no one makes
communication with latin language, but latin has influenced nearly every other
language. Many words are lend from latin. And people still learn it in school.
Pascal is, I guess, still No. 1 programming language in high schools and
universities.

I came from Basic and Fortran and formerly I switched to Turbo Pascal 3.0. Now I
am using Borland Pascal 7.0 and Delphi 1.0, but sometimes I think it would have
been better for me to go to C. Only reason to think so is the spread of C. You
can get nearly any algorithm in C, but sometimes its very tough to get it in
Pascal. Most people use C - unfortunatly.

All the best - for PASCAL

Armin Kuebelbeck

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


What I have never understood was this:  if a company goes bankrupt
(or disappears or whatever), why does everyone think their products
will no longer work?  My Atari ST still works just fine, thankyou.
As does all the software I have for it.  Should I throw it away?

If Borland vanishes, won't the existing version(s) of Delphi still
work?  At least until there is a MAJOR change to the Win32 API.

And why are professionals using VB?  Because C is too slow (to write
& debug).  VB is quick and easy, which is what the customers want.
They want it soon, not elegant.

Yes, C is portable.  And so what?  My SunSPARC won't run an MS
Windows app.  And it's getting to the point where there is only one
platform worth bothering with anyway.  Yes, there are still lots of
UN*X machines out there, and so forth.  But where is the majority of
the software business going?  To PCs.  The portability of C is
becoming less and less relevant.

Which would you rather do: write a huge Win32 app in VB, Delphi, or
VC++?  

Assembly?  What, are you crazy?

--
BCNU
Daniel J. Wojcik
http://147.35.241.5/mindless/mindless.htm
--
It is almost impossible to bite someone else's fingernails.

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


I love C and C++.  The only reason that I have even looked at Pascal is
that it is the only programming language offered at my school (high
school).  In 1999, the school is going to change the AP Computer Science
class from Pascal to C.  But, just like BASIC, Pascal will probably not
die.  It isn't a bad intermediate language between BASIC and C.  

On 4 Nov 1996, 'Z4B~F)X1&V wrote:

Quote
> :  How do you think about thesituation of PASCAL Language ?
> :How do you think when we comapare this language with another, like as
> :VISUAL C
> :How do you think ? I would like to know about it much, coz I think PASCALL
> :is going to DIE... I used it more than 5 years.

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


Quote
Daniel J. Wojcik wrote:
> What I have never understood was this:  if a company goes bankrupt
> (or disappears or whatever), why does everyone think their products
> will no longer work?  My Atari ST still works just fine, thankyou.
> As does all the software I have for it.  Should I throw it away?
> If Borland vanishes, won't the existing version(s) of Delphi still
> work?  At least until there is a MAJOR change to the Win32 API.

Software technology is not a static business. Every year a new releases with
more features, functions and some more megabites memory requirement on your
harddisk. If you want to be successful with your product (software) you have to
upgrade - no other chance.
So please understand people which have to decide about software development
projects inside companies. Would you invest money in software, where you cant
get any support (upgrades, hotlines, etc.) maybe very soon? Can you imagine the
costs you will have to swap from one language to another, because you have to do
it, because you have choosen the wrong one?
Remember the progress Borland / Turbo Pascal did make over the last years. E.g.
Turbo Pascal 4.0 was great - formerly. But no OOP, no Windows based IDE, no
Turbo Vision only 16 Bit DOS based memory segment shit. Today you can use TP 4.0
maybe for basic educational work. Yes, it still works! But do you think you can
use it for commercial applications? Who will accept such an ugly DOS-based
software?
Do you think if Borland is bankrupt, technology will stop and you still can use
Delphi for the next  years? It will work always, but maybe your compiled code
looks a little antique. Remember Turbo Pascal 4.0. No one knows where software
technology will go - but one thing is for sure: it will be still very, very
dynamic!

The mainstream is not at home on dead or dying technolgies like DOS, Turbo
Pascal, 286 PC, Atari ST, CGA, EGA, etc. etc.. This is a niche market. Mainly
poor people with low budget!

Dont through away your Atari ST. Take care of it - in a few years some museum
will pay good for it.

Btw. I hope DELPHI will survive, because it is really excellent. And I hope too
that many people still will learn and use Pascal. But a realistic look into
future or past years is not very optimistic - unfortunatly!

Armin Kuebelbeck

P.S.: Dont know why CompuServe transmits my sender as  "'Z4B~F)X1&V" has anyone
an idea?

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


Quote
"'Z4B~F)X1&V" <100442.1...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> Now I am using Borland Pascal 7.0 and Delphi 1.0, but sometimes I think it would have
>been better for me to go to C. Only reason to think so is the spread of C. You
>can get nearly any algorithm in C, but sometimes its very tough to get it in
>Pascal. Most people use C - unfortunatly.

Programming languages are not like spoken language..they can be
learned rather easily....

I know Pascal, C, and Cobol....

it's very good to learn anything.... what's the matter with learning
C....just pick up a freeware C compiler off the net and start
learning...

learn whatever you're interested in....even more than one language...

Never restrict yourself..

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


Quote
On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Vinson ABS wrote:
> ...
> How many notable programs are written in PASCAL anyway? The only program
> i could think of is Oliver Fromme's QPEG (Germany).
> ...

A notable program: earlier versions of Macintosh OS, and even ROM modules,
were written in Pascal. I have no information about latest ones.

- Hovik Melikian

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


At 13:51 04-11-96 MET, woj...@satcom.kaiserslautern.army.mil wrote:

Quote
>What I have never understood was this:  if a company goes bankrupt
>(or disappears or whatever), why does everyone think their products
>will no longer work?  My Atari ST still works just fine, thankyou.
>As does all the software I have for it.  Should I throw it away?

Very good point.  I used my Apple ][/AppleWorks for quite a while after
moving to the PC.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

Quote
>And why are professionals using VB?  Because C is too slow (to write
>& debug).  VB is quick and easy, which is what the customers want.
>They want it soon, not elegant.

You know, I've heard a lot about VB.  But I've heard it from *other* people.
I've never run into another programmer actually using it!  I thought about
checking it out at one time, but after months of asking the other
consultants I worked with if they used it, and finding NONE who did, I
dropped it.

Quote
>Yes, C is portable.  And so what?  My SunSPARC won't run an MS
>Windows app.  And it's getting to the point where there is only one
>platform worth bothering with anyway.  Yes, there are still lots of
>UN*X machines out there, and so forth.  But where is the majority of
>the software business going?  To PCs.  The portability of C is
>becoming less and less relevant.

Not only is the portablility issue becoming less relavent, it is becoming
less true.  I am currently writing code in c++.  I have to make changes --
multiple changes -- to the code for each of the three platforms I work on.
There are even scads of changes for aix 3.2.5 and aix 4.1!  This theoretical
portablility is achieved by tons of #ifdefs, not by compiler compatibility!
You have this problem even if you use straight POSIX compliant code and
compilers.

And don't even start talking about STL based code!

Don't kid yourselves...  C/C++ isn't that portable.

Quote
>Which would you rather do: write a huge Win32 app in VB, Delphi, or
>VC++?  

I haven't used any of the above as of yet.  We have just completed a study
of Delphi 2.0, and will soon be using it.

While there are many who would happily put the final nail into pascal's
coffin, I believe they are quite premature in their negative assessment.

There are all sorts of people who will make comments about the
unsuitablility of pascal for this application or that application.  They are
wrong.  Pascal can handle whatever you toss at it.  The weakness is not with
the programming language as much as it is with the programmer.  If you don't
think it can handle something, then you are right.  I, on the other hand,
have used it for LOTS of professional grade software with great ease!  It's
more attitude than anything else.

The biggest problem we have today is the tons of c-sick programmers and
managers.  Especially, as has been pointed out above, since we seem to be
moving more and more to the intel based machines.  One of the reasons we are
looking so seriously at Delphi 2.0 is that it will work from win3.1 to win95
and winNT.  And, of course, I don't lose a single line of my existing pascal
code.  There is no reason to work in c/c++!

Having said that, I'm sure the c advocates lurking around the pascal groups
will jump out with some of the things that c++ does that pascal doesn't.  I
don't care.  I only care what it does, and what it does is provide me a high
quality development environment.

Lee Crites
Senior Systems Consultant
Computer Mavericks

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


Quote
Niwat Punanwarakorn wrote:

> Dear,
>         How do you think about thesituation of PASCAL Language ?
> How do you think when we comapare this language with another, like as
> VISUAL C
> How do you think ? I would like to know about it much, coz I think PASCALL
> is going to DIE... I used it more than 5 years.
>         Please, let me know your thought.
>         Thanks,
>         WAT.

> Ps. what's the best compiler in your thought... ?        and why ?

Pascal was originally developed by someone for teaching students
programming. It is not powerful and versatile like C or other languages.
My opinion is that Pascal is only suitable for developing and testing
algotithms ,data-processing and a cut-down & unoptimized version of
Windows2.0.

The single most IMPORTANT factor is job demand. Flip thru your
classified ads, how many companies wants to employ PASCAL programmers.

The second factor is that SUN JAVA has gain a footing in the software
industry. (Anyway, I'll be learning it next year.) What chances do
PASCAL stood against JAVA? In terms of development scope and C-like
syntax, PASCAL stood no chance. Since DOS is dead, Turbo Pascal will be
the first to die.

So, did I analysed it correctly?
How many notable programs are written in PASCAL anyway? The only program
i could think of is Oliver Fromme's QPEG (Germany). Bu one thing, if you
are an expert in programming, no matter what language you do, you can do
it. It is only a matter of time and energy.

I already made plans for the development of PASCAL II a few months ago,
sounds a bit amibitious though. I am frustrated by its syntaxs and 640Kb
limits . (I use TP7 only.) However, that will be schedule sometime next
year after I explored Protected Mode. But now, I' doing a VGA Mode-X
library and later a sound/music library. I envisioned that PASCAL II
will have the same interface as Turbo Pascal 7. There will be a few
stingent requirements and good features like 486+ only for floatpoints,
combine many data files into one resource file, native drivers for
sound, video, CD-ROMs, a EIDE... So, it will be a fairly big project
which I cannot handle single-handedly. Other compilers may be great, but
an unfamiliar interface will turns heads. That's why my PASCAL II wlill
have the same or simliar "touch" as Turbo PASCAL. And have I answered
your last question?

P.S. : I programmed in PASCAL for more than 3 years.
P.P.S : Blaise Pascal is dead anyway.
P.P.S.S. : All dogs goes to Heaven.

--

Quote
>From Vinson ABS, Singapore.

WWWWWWW
[u] [v]
\  u  /
 (---)

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


<dissertation>
Well, I was programming in Quick Basic for five years,
and when I hit VB3.0, I thought it was the bee's knees
so to speak.
Then, A friend of mine bought a version of C/C++ and found
it much to difficult to program in, and so he gave it to me,
lock, stock & barrell. I spent almost 6 months trying to
get to grips with C's idiosyncrasies such as case dependancy,
and the need to compile over 10,000 lines of code just
to display the words "Hello World" on the screen, and finally gave
up quite dramatically, consigning C/C++ to the dusty cupboard of
never-look at again.
After this I bought Turbo Pascal 7.0 for DOS
and from there I have never looked back. Pascal Inspired me
to learn some assembly & look into low-level PC architecture,
comprising all of the sorts of high level language features that
I had been used to in basic, while giving me __full__ control
over my computer. I now have around 20 types of unit which
allow me to do various things in pascal which I would never
had dreamed of in C/Basic. With the advent of object-orientation
in pascal, I got hooked on this way of encapsulating code, and found
VB dissapointing in this respect. So I set about writing some much
needed extensions to VB, and hit a snag - I had to use C.
So, Out came the C/C++ box, and on went a massive footprint of 70Mb of
C so that I could write a few simple bits of code to extend VB.
What's more, my hard drive space became less and less, as __huge__
numbers of object (.obj) file began to clutter my hard drive.
So, off came C/C++ and I set about saving up for Delphi.
During this, Windows 95 came out, and so my aims went to Delphi 2
almost straight away.
I purchased Delphi 2 less than 2 months ago, and am already quite
fluent in it, and have picked up the new extensions quite
quickly (IMHO). I could never have done this with Visual-C or anything
like that, because Delphi (Object Pascal) is so intuitive & useful.
I accept that the only people who seem to be supporting pascal anymore
are Borland, but that doesn't mean that it will die. Look at all the
other (freeware?) compilers available, bringing pascal functionality
onto the UNIX platforms.

Apart from all of this, I think that everyone will agree with me that
in order to compile a "hello world" program in pascal (4 lines) is much
more preferable to writing it in C (3 lines (conservative) plus 10,000 odd
in the stdio header file) and the pascal program has a smaller footprint,
both in the compiled form & the fact that there are no messy .OBJ files.

</dissertation>

These are partly my experiences & partly my views on the subject,
if anyone has any comments / (counter) arguments, then please put
them forward, as I would welcome a good discussion on this topic.

--
News Reader Silverstone

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


Quote
> Niwat Punanwarakorn wrote:
> The single most IMPORTANT factor is job demand. Flip thru your
> classified ads, how many companies wants to employ PASCAL
> programmers.

Well, I think the most important factor is either MONEY or
productivity.

Quote
> How many notable programs are written in PASCAL anyway? The only
> program i could think of is Oliver Fromme's QPEG (Germany). Bu one
> thing, if you are an expert in programming, no matter what language
> you do, you can do it. It is only a matter of time and energy.

Ok, aside from QPEG, I can name two : Jazz Jackrabbit (probably the
fastest side-scroller arcade game for the PC) and Wizardry I (for the
Apple originally)... it was the "original" Doom. :)

Tim...

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


In article <1996Nov4.173053.18...@arl.mil>,

Quote
'Z4B~F)X1&V <100442.1...@compuserve.com> wrote:

:And I hope too
:that many people still will learn and use Pascal. But a realistic look into
:future or past years is not very optimistic - unfortunatly!

No doubt. Despite that the _absolute_ number of postings in
comp.lang.pascal and the comp.lang.pascal.delphi has been increasing
and the newsgroups (with the notable exception of the iso) keep
flourishing.

   All the best, Timo

....................................................................
Prof. Timo Salmi   Co-moderator of news:comp.archives.msdos.announce
Moderating at ftp:// & http://garbo.uwasa.fi archives  193.166.120.5
Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa
mailto:t...@uwasa.fi  <URL:http://uwasa.fi/~ts>  ; FIN-65101,  Finland

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


In article <55mf8a$...@reimari.uwasa.fi>, t...@reimari.uwasa.fi says...

Quote

>In article <1996Nov4.173053.18...@arl.mil>,
>'Z4B~F)X1&V <100442.1...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>:And I hope too
>:that many people still will learn and use Pascal. But a realistic look into
>:future or past years is not very optimistic - unfortunatly!

>No doubt. Despite that the _absolute_ number of postings in
>comp.lang.pascal and the comp.lang.pascal.delphi has been increasing
>and the newsgroups (with the notable exception of the iso) keep
>flourishing.

>   All the best, Timo

According to the rules, any truly dormant newsgroup will be automatically
marked for elimination. comp.lang.pascal.ansi-iso has lived for more than a
year without being killed. This makes sense when you find that something
like rec.gardening.flowers.bugs probally exists with only one or two messages
a month.

Seriously, it is nice to see the Pascal newsgroup tree flourishing. Even
iso drags along, against all odds (i'd have bet it would be gone by now).

                                             [sam]

Re:PASCAL will DIE or NOT ?


Quote
> > How many notable programs are written in PASCAL anyway? The only
> > program i could think of is Oliver Fromme's QPEG (Germany). Bu one
> > thing, if you are an expert in programming, no matter what language
> > you do, you can do it. It is only a matter of time and energy.

> Ok, aside from QPEG, I can name two : Jazz Jackrabbit (probably the
> fastest side-scroller arcade game for the PC) and Wizardry I (for the
> Apple originally)... it was the "original" Doom. :)

I believe Terminate was written in Pascal, also.  I may be wrong.
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