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Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...


2007-03-08 07:34:55 AM
delphi207
Mike Margerum writes:
Quote
I've been doing windows CE development (native and CF) and I gotta
tell you their peer support forums downright suck.
That has been my experience too when visiting the CF forums. Rudeness,
dismissiveness, and no tolerance for newbies seems to be the order of
the day.
And god help you if you go into the CF forums with a question and
happen to mention that you don't use C# or VB.NET to target the
framework. I once even saw someone say to a Delphi.NET poster (who
wasn't flaunting this fact or stirring, BTW) that the framework only
supported C# or VB. And this was coming from one of the puported CF
experts that hang out there too!
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
cc.codegear.com/Author/72299
QualityCentral. The best way to bug CodeGear about bugs.
qc.codegear.com
 
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

David Clegg writes:
Quote
I once even saw someone say to a Delphi.NET poster (who
wasn't flaunting this fact or stirring, BTW) that the framework only
supported C# or VB.
Even Vulcan supports CF, apparently.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

wesson writes:
Quote
Kim Madsen a écrit :

>[...]

Delphi .NET has started in December 2003, with a very poor quality IDE.
[...]
.NET broke the de{*word*81} - just unuseable under D2005 due to stability
[...]
.NET broke the IDE. you remember Delphi 7 IDE that doesn't crash as you write
You seem to blame .NET to be responsible for everything.
Andre
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

"Andre Kaufmann" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
wesson writes:
>Delphi .NET has started in December 2003, with a very poor quality IDE.
>[...]
>.NET broke the de{*word*81} - just unuseable under D2005 due to stability [...]
>.NET broke the IDE. you remember Delphi 7 IDE that doesn't crash as you write

You seem to blame .NET to be responsible for everything.
The reasoning is really simple. Either they support .Net and sacrifice a lot
of Delphi/BCB simplicity in the IDE, or they continue to strengthen what they
had already. Borland management chose to support .Net and the user base
majority think this is a folly, because they have traded off their superb IDE
design and stability. We all wish they'd taken the latter option. I do not
hear the cries of .Netizens - they do not post to newsgroups and there are not
many of them, judging by real-world .Net applications that aren't a right
royal pain in the rear to use/set up.
--
Mark Jacobs
DK Computing
www.dkcomputing.co.uk
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

Mark Jacobs a écrit :
Quote
"Andre Kaufmann" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>wesson writes:
>>Delphi .NET has started in December 2003, with a very poor quality
>>IDE. [...]
>>.NET broke the de{*word*81} - just unuseable under D2005 due to stability
>>[...]
>>.NET broke the IDE. you remember Delphi 7 IDE that doesn't crash as you write
>
>You seem to blame .NET to be responsible for everything.

The reasoning is really simple. Either they support .Net and sacrifice a
lot of Delphi/BCB simplicity in the IDE, or they continue to strengthen
what they had already. Borland management chose to support .Net and the
user base majority think this is a folly, because they have traded off
their superb IDE design and stability. We all wish they'd taken the
latter option. I do not hear the cries of .Netizens - they do not post
to newsgroups and there are not many of them, judging by real-world .Net
applications that aren't a right royal pain in the rear to use/set up.
Hi Mark,
this is exactly my feelings.
if Borland wanted to develop a .NET line of product, why not after all.
But not at such a price and with such an impact to other products.
I just remember when I had Delphi 8 .NET, there were no Win32 support
inside at all, and the only Borland recommendation was to port
everything to .NET
Object Oriented Pascal doesn't need .NET to make a living, neither in
the IDE, nor as a target. My feeling is that CodeGear should wipe all
that they've done since D8, and restart from the Delphi 7 code - to provide an
IDE that doesn't need all that Nerd surroundings.
<irony>
Here's a list of Delphi 7 prerequisites:
Here's a list of D2006 prerequisites:
* Microsoft Internet Explorer v6.0 SP1 - what for, I can not see ?
* Microsoft .NET Framework v1.1
* Microsoft .NET Framework v1.1 SP1
* Microsoft .NET Framework SDK v1.1 - These 3 alleged to be required by
the yet famous and invaluable D2005/D2006 help system
* Microsoft XML Core Services (MSXML) v4.0 SP2 - oh yes, web browser and
XML parser for the welcome page. as Useful and well suited as breaking
sugar with a power hammer.
* Microsoft Visual J# .NET v1.1 Redistributable - well, if Borland use
one technology they don't master, why not using 2 of them ...
</irony>
If only I could have been wrong when I state that .NET support broke
everything that was good in the Delphi IDE ...
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

"wesson" <unspam@me>writes
Quote
if Borland wanted to develop a .NET line of product, why not after all. But
not at such a price and with such an impact to other products.
That is the clincher. The whole problem is that CG are trying to put too many
eggs into one basket. And, CG, don't come back with the "Turbo products are
the single ident counterparts" rubbish. Answer this : Do I still need .Net 1.1
framework to install the latest Turbo C++?
--
Mark Jacobs
DK Computing
www.dkcomputing.co.uk
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

Mark Jacobs writes:
Quote
"Andre Kaufmann" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>wesson writes:
>>Delphi .NET has started in December 2003, with a very poor quality
>>IDE. [...]
>>.NET broke the de{*word*81} - just unuseable under D2005 due to stability
>>[...]
>>.NET broke the IDE. you remember Delphi 7 IDE that doesn't crash as you write
>
>You seem to blame .NET to be responsible for everything.

The reasoning is really simple. Either they support .Net and sacrifice a
That a different story, but why shall the de{*word*81} be broken by .NET as
Wesson has stated ?
Quote
[...]
their superb IDE design and stability
Sorry can not agree. For example I didn't like the old floating windows IDE.
Quote
latter option. I do not hear the cries of .Netizens - they do not post
to newsgroups and there are not many of them, judging by real-world .Net
applications that aren't a right royal pain in the rear to use/set up.
We'll see - in a few years.
Andre
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

[snip]
Quote

>their superb IDE design and stability

Sorry can not agree. For example I didn't like the old floating windows IDE.
I like the new IDE better as well, but the stability and speed really
should get some improvement! I hope Delphi 2007 will bring at least enough of
it that it is worth it (but I think this will be the case, as D2006 was
already much more stable than D2005).
Greetings
Markus
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

David Clegg schrieb:
Quote
Mike Margerum writes:

>I've been doing windows CE development (native and CF) and I gotta
>tell you their peer support forums downright suck.

That has been my experience too when visiting the CF forums. Rudeness,
dismissiveness, and no tolerance for newbies seems to be the order of
the day.

And god help you if you go into the CF forums with a question and
happen to mention that you don't use C# or VB.NET to target the
framework. I once even saw someone say to a Delphi.NET poster (who
wasn't flaunting this fact or stirring, BTW) that the framework only
supported C# or VB. And this was coming from one of the puported CF
experts that hang out there too!

My experience as well.
Greetings
Markus
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

Markus.Humm writes:
Quote
My experience as well.
My post was partly based on your experience. You were the non-C#/VB.NET
poster I was talking about :-)
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
cc.codegear.com/Author/72299
QualityCentral. The best way to bug CodeGear about bugs.
qc.codegear.com
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

David Clegg schrieb:
Quote
Markus.Humm writes:

>My experience as well.

My post was partly based on your experience. You were the non-C#/VB.NET
poster I was talking about :-)

Oh, thanks! Glad to serve as example... ;-)
Btw. my current CF app. written in Delphi works except some minor
glitches, one being that the Alpha of the standalone emulator (1.0) has
some silly bugs (I use that because it can run under W2K and my private
dev. VM runs just that) like I can not read the contents of the storage
card folder there or the TMemIniFile doesn't write the changes to the
file, but on the real device it works...
Greetings
Markus
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

Mike Margerum writes:
Quote
[...]
I also hope they didn't waste a bunch of time coding WinForms in .net
because that was deprecated in less than 5 years.
Have WinForms been deprecated ? (don't think so)
If it would be true the I'd rather say the GDI has been deprecated
and WPF should now be used, which automatically deprecates WinForms,
MFC, VCL etc.
And another question:
Will a VCL that supports WPF also deprecate the current VCL ?
Quote
[...]
Andre
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

Michael Anonymous writes:
Quote
Anders Isaksson writes:
>And guess what? Uninstalling the NVidia GUI removed all the
>problems. Not a single hang since that day (And I have more memory
>available for real work, too).
>

I'm curious if this was for a recent NVidia card?
NVIDIA Quadro NVS, don't know when it was released, but it is probably
not especially new...
But it is the 'unified driver' which seems to have given me problems,
that's not for only this card.
--
Anders Isaksson, Sweden
BlockCAD: web.telia.com/~u16122508/proglego.htm
Gallery: web.telia.com/~u16122508/gallery/index.htm
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

Andre Kaufmann writes:
Quote
Mike Margerum writes:
>[...]
>I also hope they didn't waste a bunch of time coding WinForms in .net
>because that was deprecated in less than 5 years.

Have WinForms been deprecated ? (don't think so)
How was it improved in .net 3.0?
Quote
If it would be true the I'd rather say the GDI has been deprecated
and WPF should now be used, which automatically deprecates WinForms,
MFC, VCL etc.

That's pretty much what m$ wants
Quote

And another question:

Will a VCL that supports WPF also deprecate the current VCL ?

Since a good chunk of the WPF is written in managed code, native delphi
could only access it by hosting .net. Despite what m$ wants, gdi/win32
will continue to be the api desktop apps use for at least 5 more years.
In that time, Borland could create an equivalent *native* api that ran
across different platforms.
Quote
>[...]

Andre
 

Re: Comparison about Win32 / DotNet / CSharp on Delphi, and a wish...

Mike Margerum writes:
Quote
Andre Kaufmann writes:
[...]
>Have WinForms been deprecated ? (don't think so)

How was it improved in .net 3.0?
.NET 3.0 is .NET 2.0 + WinFX. So basically regarding WinForms it is just
the same.
Quote
>If it would be true the I'd rather say the GDI has been deprecated
>and WPF should now be used, which automatically deprecates WinForms,
>MFC, VCL etc.
>
That's pretty much what m$ wants
May be. Which commercial OS vendor doesn't want to sell it is new OS ?
What would be the option - continue with GDI and adding some 3D effects ?
Quote
>
>And another question:
>
>Will a VCL that supports WPF also deprecate the current VCL ?
>

Since a good chunk of the WPF is written in managed code, native delphi
could only access it by hosting .net. Despite what m$ wants, gdi/win32
will continue to be the api desktop apps use for at least 5 more years.
We will see. Things which have caused much trouble / effort with GDI,
are now quite simple in WPF. But yes, WPF is currently only an addon for
Windows XP, meaning you have to install .NET 3.0 and it is not hardware
accelerated, so large WPF applications with many GUI elements could be
somewhat clumsy (?).
Quote
In that time, Borland could create an equivalent *native* api that ran
across different platforms.
Don't you think you underestimate the effort implementing the
"rendering" engine and the framework around it ?
Andre