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Re: Borland vs. VS


2003-07-29 06:03:08 PM
delphi148
"Alessandro Federici - RemObjects Software" <alef@[nospam]remobjects.com>
wrote
Quote
What better than the MSDN itself? Your customers might not have realized
it
but VB6 & Co. are **legacy**.
So are Delphi and CBuilder..
And the MS-Net stuff is available, not so for Borland-Net.
 
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

"Chuck Hutchings" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote
Quote
If I hire a carpenter to build my kitchen cabinets, I don't tell him to
only
use Sears Craftsman tools when he already has a complete set of
Bosch/DeWalt/Porter Cable/etc. ones.
Bad analogy. Better one would be chosing the materials. Just as you end up
living with the wood and the hardware, the customer will have to live with
the code, maintain it, upgrade it if necessary... etc.
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

Chuck Hutchings writes:
Quote
We are currently bidding on 2 projects to develop Windows client apps.
Unfortunately, both customers would prefer us to use MS Visual Studio so
they can feel all warm and fuzzy with the final source code.

Huumm... They won't go easely....
Quote
While I can certainly state why I think Borland is a better choice (Delphi)
then VS (VB6 - NOT EVEN .NET!) it is still just us against their in-house
staff.
I had the same problem a few times. In my case, the documents did not help at all.
Take a look at VB(Visual Basic) and Delphi history. See how smooth VB(Visual Basic) went from Win95, VB3 to Win
XP , VB(Visual Basic) .NET. See how VB(Visual Basic) developers are taking it. And compare it with how smooth
Delphi went from Win311, Delphi1 to Win XP , Delphi 7. See how Delphi developers are
taking it.
What about VB1..VB6 and DLL hell?
Quote

(I know this topic comes up frequently and I have checked Google but most of
the results are pretty old.)
Those are the best :-) They can show you how bad a language can be in a time line.
For example:
This happened in 2000 and still is not fixed?
Quote

So my question is: Does anyone know of any RECENT comparison studies or
other reviews (preferably INDEPENDENT) that show how using Borland's tools
saves development time/produces better apps/fewer bugs/security/etc?
We know that Delphi is better than VB. So my guess is that you will not get as many
details as you need here. Go to a VB(Visual Basic) forum/news group and check some messages. You
will spend some time, but you will find what you need. Especially with Bugs, issues
, How to and "Sorry but this can not be done in VB" MVP answers' are the ones I love
the most.
HTH,
CLément
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

Chris,
Quote
If the VB6 requirement is non-negotiable, forget it. If it is just a
preferred option, go ahead and produce your quote.
It's "negotiable" so far. I just wanted to be better 'prepared'!
Quote
Are you taking responsibility for the whole life-cycle of the task or just
the upfront design and development?
Upfront design only unless we convince them to go Borland. Then we'd do all
of it.
One thing I didn't mention is that these are both in the life-sciences area
which is for some reason FULL of VB(Visual Basic) apps that don't work well and are a pain
to support. The clients we've worked with in the past have NO problems
installing/maintaining their (Delphi) apps. This is one area that I intend
to stress to these people.
Thanks,
Chuck
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

"Donald Cameron" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
When I tried to wean a former employer off of spreadsheets and lotus
approach, the response was, "yes we know that what
you are saying is true, but when you leave we have no one who can continue
with Delphi"; and "we just don't want to
introduce a whole new set of unknowns".
We have a system like that. It uses MUMPS as its programming language. The
one guy who knew how to write code in MUMPS left years ago. It still works
fine, but it is a pain to get data out of it, and the people who maintain the
system won't let any of us try to write new code for it, because they fear
that we'll break it, and nobody will know how to get it working again.
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

"Ron" wrote
Quote
Well, try to tell a university person that Fortran is obsolete.
Been looking over a solution written in Fortran.
We wants to port it to something else the company sez.
What for I sez, its actually a very nice piece of work, and it goes.
Because the staff we are hiring out of uni. are more conversant with VB(Visual Basic) they sez.
Is that VB6 I sez.
Nah not really they sez its more like VBA but there it is.
Geez I sez is that the only reason.
We're looking for another one they sez but thats fairly much it. Don't suppose you can help us find
a better reason they sez.
Nah I sez I can not think of a better one than that.
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

"Dave Keighan" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Chuck Hutchings writes:

[...]
>but I am not going to code them in VB! I will hire a bunch of
>lackeys to do it before I stoop to "junior programmer" work!

Sheesh
I'm with Chuck...I'm a well-experienced Delphi coder stuck doing ColdFusion
as a day job. It can be very frustrating at times, working with such an
ill-equipped language as that. (Occassionally I get to do Delphi work, but
only when CF can not do the job.) I have had to resort to doing a personal
project on the side at home.
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

Sterling Bates writes:
Quote
I'm with Chuck...I'm a well-experienced Delphi coder stuck doing
ColdFusion as a day job. It can be very frustrating at times,
working with such an ill-equipped language as that. (Occassionally I
get to do Delphi work, but only when CF can not do the job.) I have had
to resort to doing a personal project on the side at home.
Hey, I am with Chuck as well. I am not starting anything new in VB.
Maintenance on two existing projects continues while they wait their
turn to be moved. Delphi (with a few third party tools added on) is, as
far as I am concerned, a much better place to work and I prefer the
results. I actually think his resolve to use Delphi in what certainly
sounds like a MS/VB shop is commendable and I hope he is successful but
IMO offhandedly insulting an entire development community (millions of
developers) because 'my tool is better than your tool', just to enforce
a point, is not. Having been a member of that community for 10+ years I
took offense, I commented, it is not a biggie, let's move on.
Thanx Sterling.
--
Posted by Dave Keighan with XanaNews 1.15.3.2
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

Quote
Unfortunately, both customers would prefer us to use MS Visual Studio so
they can feel all warm and fuzzy with the final source code.
The source code dilema is close to over.
1- Any competent developer MUST understand delphi/vb/c-clone/java code
ENOUGH for basic maintain. Apart of that, if you put a project in VB(Visual Basic) and a
good developer in VB, is NORMAL that a GOOD VB(Visual Basic) developer rewrite them
because is NORMAL that VB(Visual Basic) code is a mesh (i talk for myself 3 month rewrite
a VB(Visual Basic) wild-code...and counting). So, is irrelevant the language, is very
relevant the quality of the code. Is important that you say this.
2- With .NET, you can mix source code, and for now you have a preview
compiler for show that...
3- If the in-house developer not understan OO, write poor VB(Visual Basic) or anything
code, then the worst thing is give your code to them...first must be
training
4-With delphi you can produced less code. You can show that with a basic app
(like the rtf editor (only 4 lines of code?) or the basic dbdemos app: less
code-less risk
Quote
While I can certainly state why I think Borland is a better choice
(Delphi)
then VS (VB6 - NOT EVEN .NET!) it is still just us against their in-house
staff.
This can be your MAIN point: VS6 not is,never was, a competitor in
language&ide&productivity terms. Only .NET now is. Is more, if MS is the
only way to go, and in the end your lost the delphi cause, then go for .NET
and no accept less... (with this, is possible still use delphi, or at least
C#Builder)
Quote
(I know this topic comes up frequently and I have checked Google but most of
the results are pretty old.)
No matter if is outdated, for now, you need outdated articles because you
fight against a outdated product. Use that at your own favor: is the main
tactical point: VS 6 is outdated
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

Hi,
Chuck Hutchings writes:
Quote
We are currently bidding on 2 projects to develop Windows client apps.
Unfortunately, both customers would prefer us to use MS Visual Studio so
they can feel all warm and fuzzy with the final source code.
The customer is king. If he explicitely wants VB(Visual Basic) or VC++, you either give it
to him and charge more for the additional work you need to spend, or you
will just lose the bid.
twm
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

Dave,
I assumed there weren't many VB'ers that were going to be reading that post!
(Hence, no insult.)
<VBG>
Thanks,
Chuck
"Dave Keighan" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Sterling Bates writes:
<SNIP>
sounds like a MS/VB shop is commendable and I hope he is successful but
IMO offhandedly insulting an entire development community (millions of
developers) because 'my tool is better than your tool', just to enforce
a point, is not. Having been a member of that community for 10+ years I
<SNIP REST>
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

Thanks, Lee. that is where I was headed.
Chuck
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

Quote
I assumed there weren't many VB'ers that were going to be reading that
post!
(Hence, no insult.)
I'm one. I was using VB(Visual Basic) before it had a V.
Us old timers have learned to ignore the idiots who try to be insulting.
They just don't know what they're talking about, and they're pretty much not
worth fooling with.
Frankly, I would be more interested in being a fly on the wall when he tries to
tell his client (aka Boss) "how the cow ate the cabbage". One thing ya
gotta understand, whether you're the best programmer on the planet using the
best tool while walking on water, is just who is working for who.
FWIW, unless the earth moves we're converting to Delphi. OTOH, we're not
going to have a mixed shop for any longer than is absolutely necessary.
We'll make preparations, learn the new environment, then convert and test.
A lot of library code is involved and it makes no sense to maintain
production quality code in both environments for any length of time. What
that means is that new apps (which will almost certainly use part of our
existing libraries) will be in VB, with provisions and planning to convert
them later. The libraries are where the code assets are, not at the app
level. In short, new apps are VB(Visual Basic) still.
As I have said elsewhere, the problem isn't VB(Visual Basic) itself. The problem is
Microsoft's inability to handle the product as a serious development
platform. I am fairly certain VB5 and VB6 will be around for some time, and
its longevity will be in part due to the fact that MS has decided not to
"help" it anymore! Their lack of "improvement" on that product line is a
huge help <gg>.
For those who want to insult me because I have used MS Basic for many years
(can you spell CP/M?), let 'em. We'll laugh at their lack of understanding
behind their back (occasionally in their face if it seems entertaining) and
move on. I was in the first group of VB(Visual Basic) MVP's when MS started that program
and was heavily involved in the old MSLANGS CI$ group from the early days,
so I have been around a while and I am not unaccustomed to some idiot looking
down his nose <g>.
Dan
"Chuck Hutchings" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Dave,

I assumed there weren't many VB'ers that were going to be reading that
post!
(Hence, no insult.)

<VBG>

Thanks,

Chuck

"Dave Keighan" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:3f269de1$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>Sterling Bates writes:
<SNIP>
>sounds like a MS/VB shop is commendable and I hope he is successful but
>IMO offhandedly insulting an entire development community (millions of
>developers) because 'my tool is better than your tool', just to enforce
>a point, is not. Having been a member of that community for 10+ years I
<SNIP REST>



 

Re: Borland vs. VS

Chuck Hutchings writes:
Quote
Dave,

I assumed there weren't many VB'ers that were going to be reading
that post! (Hence, no insult.)
We're the advance guard (.5M troops). The rest are assembling for the
invasion as we speak. We're here to rescue a couple of scouts that were
sent in last year, have you seen them?
--
Posted by Dave Keighan with XanaNews 1.15.3.2
 

Re: Borland vs. VS

gill bates writes:
Quote
And the MS-Net stuff is available, not so for Borland-Net.
I assume you meant to say Delphi.NET? As certainly C#Builder is here
now.
--
David Farrell-Garcia
Whidbey Island Software LLC