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Re: The Delphi Hour


2007-06-01 07:00:37 AM
delphi134
"Simon Kissel" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
And, to get back to the point: If you are unable to pay for
something due to local laws, then the logical consequence isn't to
use it unlicensed. If I am unable to buy from CodeGear USA, this
doesn't entitle me to pirate a copy of Delphi either, right?
Well, in a sales agreement, if your customer doesn't pay you
can claim back your goods, but you are not allowed to take
it back yourself. IANAL, but, unless you have claimed it back,
Codegear wouldn't pirate when they used your software.
Anyways, I think this is an issue of vague laws, and those can
cause a lot of trouble. One personal example: As I have both a
Dutch and an Italian parent, I can obtain both a Dutch and
an Italian passport. I live in the Netherlands, but as the
Italian one is five times cheaper than the Dutch one, the
choice seems obvious.
In theory, it shouldn't matter, within the EU, you can go
everywhere, work everywhere, live everywhere. In practise, you
get all kinds of trouble. For example, when trying to get a
job, people suddenly ask for work permits. The problem is,
I can not get one because I don't need one, since those are for
people outside the EU. But try to explain that to someone who
thinks the is just following the rules.
The problem is employers are not lawyers, and quickly get confused. Because of these issues, Dutch passport for me.
I suspect the situation here is just as well confusion about
the rules. It shouldn't happen, but it is understandable it
happens.
DaniŽl Mantione
 
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

John Kaster (CodeGear) writes:
Quote
Simon Kissel writes:

>And as so many times before, you've managed to be as unthankful as
>possible.

Your interpretation of events varies widely from mine. Would you like
me to post all correspondence regarding this topic so others can decide
for themselves?

Dirty linen.
Public.
Not a good idea, John.
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

Nick,
Quote
Buying product and paying for time are two very different things. The
issue here is over time, not over a license. To insinuate otherwise is
to change the subject to one's advantage.
No, it is exactly the same. You got 2x $15.000 licenses for free, plus
another ~$8.000 of man hours. The deal simply has been "ok, I will send
my employees and myself into a night shift to get your CodeRage
conference running last-minute - my own time is free as always because
I love Delphi, but if I have to pay an external designer I want at
least a few bucks as a sign of good-will".
I never asked anyone to pay for time. You can not afford my time.
So, if someone inside CodeGear would have thought "hm, but paying
someone's time is complex" they could have ASKED how to do this,
with my reply being "simple: The invoice is for a license with a
price deducted to the amount we agreed on". Or simply read my mails,
in all of them I wrote that we are talking about the electronic
delivery of a product which is not taxed at all.
It's CodeGear who made a very simple thing complex. that is quite
normal for a corporation. it is however not OK looking at the big
picture, and it is definately not ok to go a "if he doesn't fill
out this nonsense form, we'll use his work unlicensed" route.
And the right thing to do would be to finally apologize for once
again screwing up on the "thank you" part bigtime after I have done
something for you. And yes, I consider the flawless handling of
such a minimal payment as a "thank you" - as you guys were unable to
pick up the phone after the CodeRage conference to thank me for
making that event possible, you could at least have tried not
to{*word*222}up on this payment.
For me, the "Simon does something for CodeGear for free after
they've asked for it and CodeGear then totally screws up" list
today finally reached an unacceptable length. it is been extremely
long before already, as you might remember.
Simon
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

Magnus Flysj?writes:
Quote
I dont think these things belong in the newsgroup or in any other public
forum either ftm.

It makes you all look bad (regardless whos fault it is).
This is something you guys should handle behind the scenes, and then turn to
the crowd acting like best friends and smile like nothing happend.
I could hardly agree more.
--
Robin.
Australian Bridal Accessories := www.bridalbuzz.com.au
Turbo for Noobs (a work in progress) := turbofornoobs.blogspot.com/
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

Quote
I love Delphi, but if I have to pay an external designer I want at
least a few bucks as a sign of good-will".
If you love Delphi Simon, please stop this bickering in the public channels,
it makes you both look bad.
Talk to eachother and settle instead, without letting the rest of us know.
Of course you should get paid if that was the agreement, but if they think
they need this form and you say you wont do it, then you should at least
give a warning that the licens will be suspended (and give a date about the
suspension) before taking drastic actions like closing the server a few
minutes before a big event. (which looks like something you did in rage to
maximize the damage btw)
I hope you all can calm down and settle once you have sleeped and give this
some more thoughts, but as I said before, please keep this bickering behind
closed doors and not in the public. Cause this looks really bad.
/Magnus
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

John Kaster (CodeGear) writes:
Quote
Simon Kissel writes:

>It's just that they bought a downloable
>software from an EU company under EU law, not US law.

The software you wrote for us was not downloadable. It may have been
based on something downloadable (chatjet)
Why dont you just pay Simon and stop arguing about it ?
This non-payment of a small contractor by a hundred million dollar
company just gives everyone a bad taste in the mouth. It also raises
concerns about Codegear's integrity.
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

none writes:
Quote
Why dont you just pay Simon and stop arguing about it ?
Thanks for so clearly demonstrating why it is always a bad idea to have
these kinds of conversations in public. Every time I attempt to set the
record straight, there are people who shut their eyes and plug their
ears and shout "It's all your fault!" at the top of their lungs.
Since we are not actually engaging in dialog here anyway, I am done with
this topic.
--
John Kaster blogs.codegear.com/johnk
CodeGear Developer Network: dn.codegear.com
Features and bugs: qc.codegear.com
Got source? cc.codegear.com
If it is not here, it is not happening: ec.codegear.com
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

Magnus Flysjv writes:
Quote
please keep this
bickering behind closed doors and not in the public. Cause this looks
really bad.
No, keep it public. I want to know the truth.
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

Magnus Flysjv writes:
Quote
This is something you guys should handle behind the scenes, and then
turn to the crowd acting like best friends and smile like nothing
happend.
That has a name: hypocrisy.
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

Fred Derf writes:
Quote
No, keep it public. I want to know the truth.
I think the 'facts' have already been stated. By both sides.
'Truth' is something you will have to read in to this yourself.
All we will get from this continuing here is the two parties getting
more polorised.
It could well be argued here for years and nothing would get sorted out.
It strikes me as something which could have been (and possibly still
could be) solved by a using a new and amazing concept: Communication.
Here is a basic run down for people who are geographically separated:
Step 1: Pick up the phone.
Step 2: Call the other party.
Step 3: Work it out.
And if that dowsn't work, then we can completely rule out any possible
delusion that arguing it on this public medium will.
--
Robin.
Australian Bridal Accessories := www.bridalbuzz.com.au
Turbo for Noobs (a work in progress) := turbofornoobs.blogspot.com/
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

Simon Kissel writes:
Quote
You are an individual. It actually may be true that you did a work
contract for them and therefore are a non-US worker working for a
US corporation from outside the US (which that form seems to be
about).

We are not. We are a registered cooperation, and no, we can't sign
any US forms that have "you will be killed on the border the next time
you traveled in if anything in this isn't accurate" kind of remarks.

I just don't jump through those hoops, and if Codegear thinks that
without jumping they won't pay, they should not use unlicensed
software.
FWIW, the W-8, in the eyes of the US IRS, is essentially the end of a
paper trail for a US person or entity that transfers funds to a foreign
person or entity. The form **should** have absolutely no tax
ramifications whatsoever for any person or entity operating outside of
the US.
Heck, we've got a file cabinet full of W-8's that we've gotten from
several foreign individuals and entities that have done development
work for us. I have never heard anything indicating that the form was
even relevant in their compliance with the tax laws of their respective
countries.
My $0.02: Sign the form and get paid.
--
By shifting the emphasis from individual responsibility to government
responsibility, we have infantilized an entire population." -- Judge
Judy
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

Fred Derf writes:
Quote
Magnus Flysjv writes:

>This is something you guys should handle behind the scenes, and then
>turn to the crowd acting like best friends and smile like nothing
>happend.

That has a name: hypocrisy.
Wrong. It is simply a matter of keeping private business private. There is
no obligation by either party to air their dirty laundry here or anywhere
else public, it is not any of our business, therefore not subject to
hypocrisy.
--
Wayne Niddery - Winwright, Inc (www.winwright.ca)
"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can
stand by itself." - Thomas Jefferson
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

none writes:
Quote
Why dont you just pay Simon and stop arguing about it ?
Because they want Simon to sign a paper. They probably ignore the
concept of PayPal.
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

So, if someone helped you with the nuances of the W-8 form so you get
paid, will that resolve the situation, or is it unrecoverable?
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
 

Re: The Delphi Hour

James David writes:
Quote
FWIW, the W-8, in the eyes of the US IRS, is essentially the end of a
paper trail for a US person or entity that transfers funds to a
foreign person or entity. The form should have absolutely no tax
ramifications whatsoever for any person or entity operating outside of
the US.
Typically here it would be the responsibility of the local company
(purchaser or seller) to make sure that all of the required paper work
for this country, be completed properly. I suppose each country has
it's own laws.
It would be improper for me to comment on this particular issue as I am
not one of the parties involved, so my next comment is directed at your
statement above. I'd not just sign a form without fully
understanding both the legal and tax consequences of such an action.
The laws that relate to inter country transactions can be quite complex
and one would be asking for a lot of trouble by just signing every form
that crossed your desk. I most definitely would get some advise before
going ahead and putting my signature on the bottom line.
--
Dean