Hi Gurus/folks!,

Our Computer Science department has been divided over Java and Delphi
- which one should be accepted as standard computer language for
teaching subjects like : Object Oriented Programming, Advanced User
Interface, Programmming 1  & 2, Advanced Operating Systems (unix) etc.
We would like to replace existing c/C++ and VB with one programming
language to teach the above subjects.

I would apprciate if you could suggest/recommend a better suitable
language indicating some pros and cons.
Thanking you in advance.

Rana
email: rcha...@unitec.ac.nz

Do both?  

All the Java development environments are crude compared to
Delphi.

Java user interface programming and capabilities *very* crude
compared to Delphi.  

Java compiles much more slowly, and the debugging tools (that
I've used) are still pretty crude.  It takes 40-60 sec to compile
my 3000 line Java program... about as long as it takes to compile
my 80,000 line program in Delphi.

OO programming is surprising similar between Java and Delphi.
In many ways Java is more like Delphi than like C++.  i.e, No
multiple inheritence nastiness, real String classes, you work
with objects instead of pointers to objects (though pointers
are still there in Delphi).

Java also has no or very limited local persistence making it
very difficult to do many things one takes for granted as
a programmer (like write to the harddrive).  Java Applications
though are more flexible than Java applets.

One of the things that makes Java really easy is that
you never have to clean up after yourself and dispose
of anything.  I think that learning only Java would cripple
your students and give them pretty bad habits.  Imagine
programming where memory leaks aren't an issue (at least
leaks you can control... java leaks a lot on its own
sometimes).  Also Java doesn't do pointers... I can't
imagine a CS major who fails to learn about handling
pointers.

And, despite all the Just In Time compiling technology,
Java is much slower than Delphi.

Java however can compile and run on many more platforms
than just Win... the CS folks around here also big on
Linux/Unix and the Macs as well.  With Delphi you are
stuck with Win 95/NT for better or worse.

I think it is a mistake for you to choose *one* system
over all others.  One must learn the pro's and con's
of differing systems, as well as differences and similarities.
Makes it much easier to then tailor that knowledge to other
situations.  Instead of dropping C++ and VB in favor of
Delphi or Java, why not simply add Delphi and Java and keep
C++ and (though not necessarily) VB?  Someone who knows some
of 3 or 4 will be far more valuable then someone who only
knows 1.  

-Erik Johnson
e...@phidias.colorado.edu
http://phidias.colorado.edu/vgallery.html

I cannot thing of a better language for teaching these things than Delphi.  
You have all of the advantages of Pascal for teaching basic programming.  
Delphi's object oriented capabilities are sufficient for teaching all of the
concepts but they are easier to use than any other language.  While C++ is
powerful it is complex.

Delphi's user interface design capabilities are equal to VBs.

John

World-Wide-Web: The CB Radio of the 90's

        Delphi's design capabilities are MUCH better than VB's, not Equal.

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**Special Compile: 3.000A (Alpha)

On the long run Java will be the standard language for high-level
object-oriented programming. Although I like programming the Delphi
environment, ObjectPascal is not as complete and consistent as Java
and Delphi seems to be replaced/overrun with the next generation RAD
tools from language vendors, including Borland with Latte.

The problem with Java is the platform specific integration. But since
microsoft has taken over the windows-implementation of the JavaAPI we
can expect a very native looking Java GUI with all the mirrored COM
(and ActiveX?) objects.

Armin

mailto:san...@zukunft.de
http://www.zukunft.de/~sander

If the object here is to teach basic principles, it simply cannot be done
effectively with one language. For example, if you want your students to grasp
the fundamentals of object orientation, Smalltalk is the only choice, but of
course it is no use in an operating systems course. If you insist on using a
single language, it'll simply cause confusion.

Clive Backham
Capita Managed Services Ltd. (+44) 1442 872121
cl...@capita.nildram.co.uk

I'm of the opinion that it should be the business of a computer-science
department to introduce students to as many languages as possible; within
reason.

For example, I think that C/C++, VB, and Pascal should definitely be on the
list of required subjects.  It does not matter which one one prefers, but that
one is [forced to be] exposed to several.  Each language solves essentially
the same problem in essentially the same way, but does it differently.  (I
think you should employ several different vendors' tools, as well.)

As for Java...  yes, expose advanced students to it, but don't be trendy.  I
knew quite a few well-meaning Stanford graduates who, god bless 'em, knew all
about NP-complete problems and scientific languages no one else had heard of,
but couldn't program as well in Visual Basic on an ordinary business-type
problem than someone at De Anza.  :-O  

[...]

I dissagree... A comp.sci. program should teach the students the basics
of programming in a thorough way, not programming languages. A good
comp.sci. student should be able to pick up any language in a matter
of weeks (or in some cases - days).

When the big moveover from C to C++ started, it was said that it could
take as long as 6 months full time to become profecient in C++. The
reason for that was that C programmers needed to learn to think in a
completely different way. If these C programmers had been taught in
a OO way, they would have picked up C++ in just a week or two.

I think students should learn to program in a language that is
good from a learning angle, not in a language that is "good for
business". Simula and Smalltalk would be good candidates. Java
too, but not as good as the two former. C++ would be not too good,
since it doesn't MAKE you do OO programming. C++ combined with
a not-so-good teacher is a bad thing...

I was taught programming in Pascal, and later when I went to a
compiler-construction course, noone taught us C (which was
required to finish the course). If we didn't know C, we were
expected to learn it ourselves. Jumping from Pascal to C is
dead easy. It is just a syntax difference... I wish I was taught
programming in Simula or Smalltalk though...

--
____________________________________________________________________
--- Terje : t.berge...@shell.no    - I speak only for ME.
---
--- <!--#include virtual="/docs/std/disclaimer.txt" -->

... and the easiest (and safest) way to do this, is to expose the students
to lots of different languages. You know, give 'em it all, Fortran, Cobol,
C, Lisp, Prolog, Smalltalk, Pascal ...
(Pascal and Smalltalk are probably good starter languages since they were
designed for that purpose.)

Going the other way is dead hard, though. Unless, you know programming,
and not just programming-in-C.

M.

--
Martin Larsson, author of several unknown utilities for DOS and Windows.
mailto:martin.lars...@delfi-data.msmail.telemax.no
http://www.delfidata.no/users/~martin
X.400:G=martin;S=larsson;O=delfi-data;P=msmail;A=telemax;C=no

On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:55:01 +0200, "Terje A. Bergesen"
<t.berge...@shell.no> you smacked the keyboard repeatedly to write:

While I agree with this (SunDial's message), I don't think it should
be the emphasis of the department.  Most of the languages are so
similar that it doesn't take long to adjust from one language to
another (unless you talk about going between methodologies such as
procedural versus oop).

It is my opinion that the actual programming language is a very
insignificant part of programming when compared to the rest.  I feel
that what makes or breaks the programmer is their ability to solve a
problem.  If they don't know how to solve your problem then they could
know 100 languages and it wouldn't do them a bit of good.  The
programmer should also have other skills that have nothing to do with
the language, or transcends them all.  Here is my list of what I feel
are the important things a programmer needs in their arsenal:

1) Problem Solving Skills.
2) Communication Skills.
3) Organizational Skills.
4) Documentation Skills. (Not to be confused with communication
skills)
5) Programming Language Skills

[Snip]

Brien King
bk...@primenet.com

: Our Computer Science department has been divided over Java and Delphi
: - which one should be accepted as standard computer language for
: teaching subjects like : Object Oriented Programming, Advanced User
: Interface, Programmming 1  & 2, Advanced Operating Systems (unix) etc.

Java would fail miserably at Advanced User Interface and Advanced OS.
Java's user interface has barely learned to crawl, let alone do
anything advanced. Java is a bad OS systems programming language too.
It's only available as an interpreter! I don't see how a case could
be made for teaching Java in either class. Delphi could be used
as a Win32 systems programming language (at least it can make
system calls! :)) but is only available on one platform. It would
obviously excel at user interfaces.

It might work for teaching OOP. Delphi would be a lot better -- you
could teach structured programming in Pascal and then OOP in Delphi,
then the last few weeks introduce Java, C++, and others.  The last day
of class you could smile and tell people they'll have to learn C and
COBOL to get a job :)

I don't see replacing all four topics with one language anyway.
I guess you could teach Pascal as the intro language, Delphi
for OO (with a lot of outside languages mentioned) and user
interface design.

Scott

Unlike the other answers you received, I could not support the replacement
of C++ to teach the subjects you described. You will find the Delphi lacks
some of the flexability of C++ -- Operator overloading, and the use of one
function/procedure name with multiple signatures.

Do not get me wrong; in most cases I would choose Delphi over C++ for
application development (there are some cases where there is an advantage
to use C++). For the purpose of teaching OOP I would stick with C++. You
would be wise to continue with the decision to get rid of VB.

--
John Sylvestre
Montreal, QC Canada
john.sylves...@sympatico.ca

(I sense a further thread divergence coming on...)

I disagree with this ordering:

 Problem Solving Skills are of obvious importance, but any half-way decent
programmer has problem solving skills that are up to the types of problems
that most of us have to deal with in the professional programming world (yes
there are many incompetent programmers out there who doesn't but lets assume
we can filter them out).

The real trait the distinguishes the good programmer from the run of the mill
can-get-by programmer is the ability to manage complexity. I assume this falls
under thabove category or Organizational Skills (but perhaps something
different was meant). Lots of programmers can hack out a working solution to a
problem, but those whose solution ends up being maintainable, extensible, and
doesn't just add to the disarray of the program are few and far between.

E. Schwarzenbach (e...@ici.net)

On Thu, 19 Sep 96 04:04:11 GMT, e...@ici.net (Eric Schwarzenbach) you
smacked the keyboard repeatedly to write:

Thats why I put Problem Solving at the top.  If they can't even solve
the problem, I don't even need to look any further.

Yes, that is what I intended.  Being able to recognize all the parts
and how they work together.  Then being able to develop a plan to
complete the "Big Picture".

Brien King
bk...@primenet.com