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Turbo vs. VAX Pascal

Next semester I will be teaching a course in Pascal and Data Structures for
the first time.  Our college has two different Pascal systems available for
the students.  A PC lab with Turbo Pascal 5.5 and a VAX lab with VAX
Pascal.  I am trying to decide which platform to specify for class work or
if I should encourage/require the students to try both.

I am a long time Turbo user, however the previous instructor (who will
likely be teaching sections in the future as well) has always required VAX
Pascal.  One thing to note is that Turbo runs on Pentium machines that are
also available to the student body at large.  The VAX system we have is
strictly for CS students.  That might make it easier for students to access
the machines.

I am not familiar myself with the differences between the two compilers.  I
plan to take the VAX Pascal manual with me on Christmas vacation this year
and wade through it.

If anyone could offer an opinion (and rationale) on which compiler to
choose, I'd be very interested in that.

Also, if anyone is familiar in a document available which
compares/contrasts Turbo with VAX Pascal, that would be helpful and
appreciated.

Post here or email would be appreciated.

Thank you.
--
Tony Pittarese
tonyp...@gulf.net
http://www.gulf.net/~tonypitt

 

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
Tony Pittarese wrote:

> Next semester I will be teaching a course in Pascal and Data Structures for
> the first time.  Our college has two different Pascal systems available for
> the students.  A PC lab with Turbo Pascal 5.5 and a VAX lab with VAX
> Pascal.  I am trying to decide which platform to specify for class work or
> if I should encourage/require the students to try both.

> I am a long time Turbo user, however the previous instructor (who will
> likely be teaching sections in the future as well) has always required VAX
> Pascal.  One thing to note is that Turbo runs on Pentium machines that are
> also available to the student body at large.  The VAX system we have is
> strictly for CS students.  That might make it easier for students to access
> the machines.

> I am not familiar myself with the differences between the two compilers.  I
> plan to take the VAX Pascal manual with me on Christmas vacation this year
> and wade through it.

> If anyone could offer an opinion (and rationale) on which compiler to
> choose, I'd be very interested in that.

> Also, if anyone is familiar in a document available which
> compares/contrasts Turbo with VAX Pascal, that would be helpful and
> appreciated.

> Post here or email would be appreciated.

> Thank you.
> --
> Tony Pittarese
> tonyp...@gulf.net
> http://www.gulf.net/~tonypitt

Hello,

As a fellow teacher I will offer couple of pointers (and highly
opinionated statements) although I am NOT familiar with VAX pascal.
Couple of years ago, I was stuck with teaching VAX Basic for a semester,
and ooh boy, was I happy when the semester was over and I could go back
to QBasic.
Mainframe community is generally very slow when it comes to accepting
new (software) technologies. I wouldn't be suprised if you found out that
VAX pascal is based on old ANSII/Wirth standard (which can't really be
called a standard any more since a large majority of pascal programmers
use some turbo xx version of the language).

Things to look for when you go through VAX manual :

        Does it have IDE? Mainframes are notorious for separating
        editor from a compiler, from a de{*word*81} (is there such a thing
        as de{*word*81}?). Write Hello World program in turbo pascal,
        time yourself and then do it on VAX.

        Does is support such rudimentary 'non standard' types as
        string type ? (i once thaught a unix pascal course that
        didn't, but that's another story)

        How about OOP ? Even if you don't teach it in the first
        programming class, it should still be there.

        Graphics ?

I would suggest that you use Turbo Pascal. Less time you spend on
(most likely very) annoying environment, more time you can spend
on important concepts.

Of course, take all this with a grain of salt. I am sure that my
distaste for any computing box bigger than my stereo seeps through.

neven

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
Larry Kilgallen wrote:
>.>
> >       Does it have IDE? Mainframes are notorious for separating
> >       editor from a compiler, from a de{*word*81} (is there such a thing
> >       as de{*word*81}?). Write Hello World program in turbo pascal,
> >       time yourself and then do it on VAX.

> DEC Pascal does not provide an IDE, but the VMS de{*word*81} is the most
> complete I have seen.  The Think Pascal....

How did we get to Think Pascal? Is that a Mac version of Turbo Pascal?

....if the sort of program being debugged is "Hello World",

Quote
> advanced de{*word*81} features (Break on the fourth call to this routine
> but only if variable QWERTY has the value "True") are probably
> irrelevant.  If _I_ were teaching a Pascal course at the level
> of "Hello World" and I had the ability to choose the compiler,
> I would probably choose Think Pascal, even though it is out of
> date with respect to the latest MacOS advances and not supported
> by the vendor.

I used "hello world" as an example to illustrate the point that
in an non-integrated editor/compiler/de{*word*81} environment it simply
takes longer and it is less convenient to develop ANY program.
I am assuming that this course will be taken by novice
programmers, since teaching Pascal as an introductory language is
common practice. In the first part of the course, beginning programmers
tipically have lots of problems with syntax errors. This makes editor-
-compiler separation particularly annoying.

Quote
> DEC has provided "non-standard" string types for years, and has
> been (too) gradually supporting corresponding features from the
> Extended Pascal international standard.  Contrast this with the
> position of vendors like Symantec and Borland who just ignore
> such standards.  In fact the only (claimed) full implementation
> of the latest standard I have heard of is Prospero Extended Pascal
> on OS/2.

I take a biiiig exception here. Borland is not just another 'pascal
vendor'. Thanks to them Pascal is now used by hundreds of thousands
of programmers. Borland created a 'de facto' pascal standard although
we might not attach that particular label to it. Standards are not
created by decree, rather by the number of people who adhere to it.

Quote

> So how do you teach standards ?  Probably teaching one version of
> Pascal the first semester and another version the second semester.
> Eventually it will send the students running to Ada !!!

> >       How about OOP ? Even if you don't teach it in the first
> >       programming class, it should still be there.

> I am not sure how unused features creep into the decision of what
> compiler to use...

> >       Graphics ?

> And I certainly feel Graphics should be unused in a course which is
> still teaching Hello World.

Back to Hello World. They are not going to be Hello World-ing the
entire semester. What exactly is thaught in such a course depends on
the quality of the school, whether the course is based on ACM CS1
or is more technical in nature etc. (For example at UT Austin an 'extra
credit' assignment consisted of writing a simple assembler in
Pascal). There is an ongoing debate on whether the introduction of
OOP in first programming course is a good idea. I wouldn't want to
get into that right now, but I definitely wouldn't want to restrict
my students just because 'this compiler can't do it'. And remember,
there are always advanced students who want do  more than is
required.

neven

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
In article <32B2EEB6.4...@texas.net>, neven <softm...@texas.net> writes:
> As a fellow teacher I will offer couple of pointers (and highly
> opinionated statements) although I am NOT familiar with VAX pascal.

I am not a teacher, but I am quite familiar with VAX Pascal.

Quote
> Mainframe community is generally very slow when it comes to accepting
> new (software) technologies. I wouldn't be suprised if you found out that
> VAX pascal is based on old ANSII/Wirth standard (which can't really be
> called a standard any more since a large majority of pascal programmers
> use some turbo xx version of the language).

I am not sure what version you are using, but in 1992 DEC introduced
a new Alpha computing architecture and a VMS version to go with it.
Pascal support was some months later, but at that time both the VAX
and Alpha products were renamed DEC Pascal.  If you really have a
a version which is labeled "VAX Pascal", it is sorely out of date.

Quote
> Things to look for when you go through VAX manual :

>    Does it have IDE? Mainframes are notorious for separating
>    editor from a compiler, from a de{*word*81} (is there such a thing
>    as de{*word*81}?). Write Hello World program in turbo pascal,
>    time yourself and then do it on VAX.

DEC Pascal does not provide an IDE, but the VMS de{*word*81} is the most
complete I have seen.  The Think Pascal de{*word*81} has closer ties to
the IDE and thus provides better feedback into the editing process
than DEC Pascal.  But advanced de{*word*81} features are probably not
very important if the sort of program being debugged is "Hello World",
advanced de{*word*81} features (Break on the fourth call to this routine
but only if variable QWERTY has the value "True") are probably
irrelevant.  If _I_ were teaching a Pascal course at the level
of "Hello World" and I had the ability to choose the compiler,
I would probably choose Think Pascal, even though it is out of
date with respect to the latest MacOS advances and not supported
by the vendor.

Quote
>    Does is support such rudimentary 'non standard' types as
>    string type ? (i once thaught a unix pascal course that
>    didn't, but that's another story)

DEC has provided "non-standard" string types for years, and has
been (too) gradually supporting corresponding features from the
Extended Pascal international standard.  Contrast this with the
position of vendors like Symantec and Borland who just ignore
such standards.  In fact the only (claimed) full implementation
of the latest standard I have heard of is Prospero Extended Pascal
on OS/2.

So how do you teach standards ?  Probably teaching one version of
Pascal the first semester and another version the second semester.
Eventually it will send the students running to Ada !!!

Quote
>    How about OOP ? Even if you don't teach it in the first
>    programming class, it should still be there.

I am not sure how unused features creep into the decision of what
compiler to use...

Quote
>    Graphics ?

And I certainly feel Graphics should be unused in a course which is
still teaching Hello World.

Larry Kilgallen

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
> Next semester I will be teaching a course in Pascal and Data Structures for
> the first time.  Our college has two different Pascal systems available for
> the students.  A PC lab with Turbo Pascal 5.5 and a VAX lab with VAX
> Pascal.  I am trying to decide which platform to specify for class work or
> if I should encourage/require the students to try both.

> I am a long time Turbo user, however the previous instructor (who will
> likely be teaching sections in the future as well) has always required VAX
> Pascal.  One thing to note is that Turbo runs on Pentium machines that are
> also available to the student body at large.  The VAX system we have is
> strictly for CS students.  That might make it easier for students to access
> the machines.

> I am not familiar myself with the differences between the two compilers.  I
> plan to take the VAX Pascal manual with me on Christmas vacation this year
> and wade through it.

> If anyone could offer an opinion (and rationale) on which compiler to
> choose, I'd be very interested in that.

   I have used both in classes I taught, and the clear choice for me
would be/is Turbo Pascal.  Vax Pascal is very much (only) an academic
system, with extreme limitations in I/O and system interface capability
(like ISO Pascal).  If what you want to teach is _only_ standard Pascal,
Vax Pascal is surely the closewr product/environment, but it's much
harder to work with than Turbo: there's the Vax system editor(s), the
crude screen/printer i/o, virtually no system interfaces (perhaps not
important, but you'll be amazed how little the Pascal language Wirth
created was designed to accomplish...), and IMHO useful only for basic
programming instruction.
   That's not to say I couldn't teach Pascal Programming with the Vax
system, but the difficulties I had in the college I taught in were more
than I wanted to deal with: obtaining terminals, slow system response,
inability to "print screen" program output for simple execise
submissions, and the biggest issue: the students I had didn't want to
learn that stuff - they had PCs and a TP compiler, and they wanted to
work at home/work on their own time, rather than when the lab was
available.  Also, the horrible (lack of) documentation for the Vax
Pascal was a real problem for me, since I wasn't familiar with the Vax
system software.
   I came to regard the Vax Pascal system as _solely_ for academic work,
and I had the freedom to go more with what the students actually
desired.  I taught _only_ the standard Pascal syntax and symantics, but
I was able (had) to answer their many person questions about Turbo
extensions and uniqueness.  Some students had only acces to the Vax
system (and I don't think any suffered), but those who had/used Turbo
fared better overall.

Quote

> Also, if anyone is familiar in a document available which
> compares/contrasts Turbo with VAX Pascal, that would be helpful and
> appreciated.

   I know of no such information, and much of my opinions are based on
personal experience and difficulties.  I wasn't constrained to use one
or the other, but the student environment and overall practicality
steered me to Turbo.  I was teaching in the School of Business...

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


In article <01bbe9f4$bc08b580$564f45c6@486-66> of Sat, 14 Dec 1996
19:27:42 in comp.lang.pascal.ansi-iso, Tony Pittarese

Quote
<tonyp...@gulf.net> wrote:
>Next semester I will be teaching a course in Pascal and Data Structures for
>the first time.  Our college has two different Pascal systems available for
>the students.  A PC lab with Turbo Pascal 5.5 and a VAX lab with VAX
>Pascal.  I am trying to decide which platform to specify for class work or
>if I should encourage/require the students to try both.

>I am a long time Turbo user, however the previous instructor (who will
>likely be teaching sections in the future as well) has always required VAX
>Pascal.  One thing to note is that Turbo runs on Pentium machines that are
>also available to the student body at large.  The VAX system we have is
>strictly for CS students.  That might make it easier for students to access
>the machines.

Turbo runs on any PC (OK, TP6+ really needs a hard drive; TP5.5 may); so
many students may be able to use their own machines (there have been
good student price discounts on Borland products).  This may be an
advantage - or an unfair advantage.  Few students will own VAXen.

You should, however, try to upgrade the lab to TP7, with BP7 for the
instructor at least.

--
John Stockton, Surrey, UK.  j...@merlyn.demon.co.uk  Turnpike v1.12  MIME
    http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
John R. Reagan wrote:

> In article <32B2EEB6.4...@texas.net>, neven <softm...@texas.net> writes...
> >Mainframe community is generally very slow when it comes to accepting
> >new (software) technologies. I wouldn't be suprised if you found out that
> >VAX pascal is based on old ANSII/Wirth standard (which can't really be
> >called a standard any more since a large majority of pascal programmers
> >use some turbo xx version of the language).

> I'll have to argue with that statement....

> There are 2 Pascal standards.  ISO 7185 (ie, "unextended" Pascal) with
> is J&W Pascal with a few things fixed, and a few things added (conformant
> arrays).  It was approved back in 1983.  DEC Pascal supports ISO 7185.
> I think you'll find that Turbo Pascal does not (they have an appendix
> in their manual saying that features of ISO 7185 they don't do).
> ISO 10206 (ie, "Extended Pascal") has many new features: seperate
> compilation, run-time sized types/variables, etc. (too many to list
> here, send me email if you want a whole list).

I appreciate the clarification. However, my point is that a 'standard' is
what most people adhere to, not a set of rules labeled 'xxx standard'.
The fact is that a huge percentage of  pascal programmers use some kind
of Borland or Borland-compatible version of the language. That should
have some bearing on which version of language to choose

....  You'll have to decide if an IDE is really necessary

Quote
> to teach programming...

I think that it is, because there is less distraction. Novice programmer
has a lot to deal with. Too often we forget how hard it was get rid of
syntax errors alone, when we first started out. I would agree that IDE
becomes less important as students move to their second language or
data structures. However, I witnnessed many students being turned off
to programming because of unfriendly environment.

Quote

> >Of course, take all this with a grain of salt. I am sure that my
> >distaste for any computing box bigger than my stereo seeps through.

> "Seeps"?  I'd call it a tsunami.
> OK, tsunami it is. Based on 20 years of dealing with mainframe

administrators who for some reason always thought that the sole
purpose for existence of programmers/users was to support them
instead of the other way around.

neven

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
In article <32B48A34.1...@primenet.com>, Mike Copeland <mrc...@primenet.com> writes:
> available.  Also, the horrible (lack of) documentation for the Vax
> Pascal was a real problem for me, since I wasn't familiar with the Vax
> system software.

The documentation for DEC Pascal comes in two books:

        AA-PWVSA-TK Language Reference Manual
        AA-PXSNA-TK User Manual for OpenVMS Systems

In addition to the 3 cubic feet or so of documentation for base VMS.

So did you find the above deficient or just missing from your site?

Larry Kilgallen

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
> > available.  Also, the horrible (lack of) documentation for the Vax
> > Pascal was a real problem for me, since I wasn't familiar with the Vax
> > system software.

> The documentation for DEC Pascal comes in two books:

>         AA-PWVSA-TK Language Reference Manual
>         AA-PXSNA-TK User Manual for OpenVMS Systems

> In addition to the 3 cubic feet or so of documentation for base VMS.
> So did you find the above deficient or just missing from your site?

   It was just our site, as well as the system administration of same.
I was teaching as parttime staff, at night, with virtually no system
support in the lab.  It was also 8 years ago.
   Granted, my situation with the Vax may have been abnormal, but it
doesn't detract from the other issues I was facing, where few students
had any desire to use the lab...for all sorts of reasons.

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
In article <32B2EEB6.4...@texas.net>, neven <softm...@texas.net> writes...
>Mainframe community is generally very slow when it comes to accepting
>new (software) technologies. I wouldn't be suprised if you found out that
>VAX pascal is based on old ANSII/Wirth standard (which can't really be
>called a standard any more since a large majority of pascal programmers
>use some turbo xx version of the language).

I'll have to argue with that statement....

There are 2 Pascal standards.  ISO 7185 (ie, "unextended" Pascal) with
is J&W Pascal with a few things fixed, and a few things added (conformant
arrays).  It was approved back in 1983.  DEC Pascal supports ISO 7185.
I think you'll find that Turbo Pascal does not (they have an appendix
in their manual saying that features of ISO 7185 they don't do).
ISO 10206 (ie, "Extended Pascal") has many new features: seperate
compilation, run-time sized types/variables, etc. (too many to list
here, send me email if you want a whole list).

Quote
>Things to look for when you go through VAX manual :

>    Does it have IDE? Mainframes are notorious for separating
>    editor from a compiler, from a de{*word*81} (is there such a thing
>    as de{*word*81}?). Write Hello World program in turbo pascal,
>    time yourself and then do it on VAX.

No IDE on OpenVMS.  You have to edit the file with an editor, compile
it with the PASCAL command, link it with the LINK command, and run it
with the RUN command.  You'll have to decide if an IDE is really necessary
to teach programming...

Quote
>    Does is support such rudimentary 'non standard' types as
>    string type ? (i once thaught a unix pascal course that
>    didn't, but that's another story)

DEC Pascal has variable-length string types.  It has the STRING data
type from the Extended Pascal standard.  Similar to Turbo Pascal, but
different.

Quote
>    How about OOP ? Even if you don't teach it in the first
>    programming class, it should still be there.

No, DEC Pascal does not have any object-oriented extensions.  The
Pascal standards committee has issued a technical report on Object-oriented
Extensions to Pascal.

Quote
>    Graphics ?

Well, there are several graphics packages on OpenVMS.  Some are
optional products you have to pay for.  There is no built-in
graphics.  Again, if that is important to you.

Quote
>I would suggest that you use Turbo Pascal. Less time you spend on
>(most likely very) annoying environment, more time you can spend
>on important concepts.

>Of course, take all this with a grain of salt. I am sure that my
>distaste for any computing box bigger than my stereo seeps through.

"Seeps"?  I'd call it a tsunami.

--
John Reagan
DEC Pascal Project Leader
Application Compilers and Environments
Digital Equipment Corporation
rea...@hiyall.enet.dec.com
Disclaimer:  The opinions and statements expressed by me are not
             necessarily those of Digital Equipment Corporation.
--

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
In article <32B558FB.6...@primenet.com>, Mike Copeland <mrc...@primenet.com> writes:
>> > available.  Also, the horrible (lack of) documentation for the Vax
>> > Pascal was a real problem for me, since I wasn't familiar with the Vax
>> > system software.
>> So did you find the above deficient or just missing from your site?

>    It was just our site, as well as the system administration of same.
> I was teaching as parttime staff, at night, with virtually no system
> support in the lab.  It was also 8 years ago.
>    Granted, my situation with the Vax may have been abnormal, but it
> doesn't detract from the other issues I was facing, where few students
> had any desire to use the lab...for all sorts of reasons.

So the answer to the original question then should depend in part
not on the quality of the software tools but on the degree of the
support available to students in a particular setting, some aspects
of which may be local in origin.

Larry Kilgallen

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
Tony Pittarese (tonyp...@gulf.net) wrote:

go with Turbo Pascal. Most CS students have their own pc or some other
accessible one that doesn't have VAX. Eg. I never worked on my CS
assignments in the school labs. All of it at home, I think better and I
can have my books scattered all over the place.  It would have been
horrible for me if I had to use a VAX system. For students.. especially
new ones.. stick to turbo pascal

Quote
> Next semester I will be teaching a course in Pascal and Data Structures for
> the first time.  Our college has two different Pascal systems available for
> the students.  A PC lab with Turbo Pascal 5.5 and a VAX lab with VAX
> Pascal.  I am trying to decide which platform to specify for class work or
> if I should encourage/require the students to try both.
> I am a long time Turbo user, however the previous instructor (who will
> likely be teaching sections in the future as well) has always required VAX
> Pascal.  One thing to note is that Turbo runs on Pentium machines that are
> also available to the student body at large.  The VAX system we have is
> strictly for CS students.  That might make it easier for students to access
> the machines.
> I am not familiar myself with the differences between the two compilers.  I
> plan to take the VAX Pascal manual with me on Christmas vacation this year
> and wade through it.
> If anyone could offer an opinion (and rationale) on which compiler to
> choose, I'd be very interested in that.
> Also, if anyone is familiar in a document available which
> compares/contrasts Turbo with VAX Pascal, that would be helpful and
> appreciated.
> Post here or email would be appreciated.
> Thank you.
> --
> Tony Pittarese
> tonyp...@gulf.net
> http://www.gulf.net/~tonypitt

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Support Chips.. nothing runs without us

Email address: sof...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
In article <32B48A34.1...@primenet.com>, Mike Copeland <mrc...@primenet.com> writes...
>   I have used both in classes I taught, and the clear choice for me
>would be/is Turbo Pascal.  Vax Pascal is very much (only) an academic
>system, with extreme limitations in I/O and system interface capability
>(like ISO Pascal).  If what you want to teach is _only_ standard Pascal,
>Vax Pascal is surely the closewr product/environment, but it's much
>harder to work with than Turbo: there's the Vax system editor(s), the
>crude screen/printer i/o, virtually no system interfaces (perhaps not
>important, but you'll be amazed how little the Pascal language Wirth
>created was designed to accomplish...), and IMHO useful only for basic
>programming instruction.

Huh?  DEC Pascal (aka VAX Pascal) has tons of extensions beyond ISO 7185
that makes is useful as an OpenVMS systems programming languages.  There
are hundreds/thousands of OpenVMS customers that have written real-world,
useful, bet-your-business, etc. applications using DEC Pascal.

Saying that DEC Pascal is only an academic language ignores all the extra
features that we put into the language to make it usable.  And, by the
way, do did Borland.  

--
John Reagan
DEC Pascal Project Leader
Application Compilers and Environments
Digital Equipment Corporation
rea...@hiyall.enet.dec.com
Disclaimer:  The opinions and statements expressed by me are not
             necessarily those of Digital Equipment Corporation.
--

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
In article <32B4F88C.1...@texas.net>, neven <softm...@texas.net> writes:
> I appreciate the clarification. However, my point is that a 'standard' is
> what most people adhere to, not a set of rules labeled 'xxx standard'.
> The fact is that a huge percentage of  pascal programmers use some kind
> of Borland or Borland-compatible version of the language. That should
> have some bearing on which version of language to choose

I don't know of Borland-compatible or even Borland-imitating Pascal
implementations currently offered on other than Intel processors. To
get a student overly-familiar with a dialect which only applies when
such a machine is used does not seem to me to be doing them a favor.

On the other hand, the rest of the Pascal implementations seem to be
equally fragmented, with four different implementations of Macintosh
Pascal which are close to each other but far from the Pascal available
on Unix, VMS, MVS, etc.

That is actually a major reason why I try to work in Ada these days,
because the peer pressure to honor official international standards
is much stronger.

Lots of Pascal vendors have added useful extensions, and in fact
they all seem to offer the same semantics, but with each one using
different syntax :-(.

Larry Kilgallen

Re:Turbo vs. VAX Pascal


Quote
John R. Reagan wrote:

> In article <32B48A34.1...@primenet.com>, Mike Copeland <mrc...@primenet.com> writes...
> >   I have used both in classes I taught, and the clear choice for me
> >would be/is Turbo Pascal.  Vax Pascal is very much (only) an academic
> >system, with extreme limitations in I/O and system interface capability
> >(like ISO Pascal).  If what you want to teach is _only_ standard Pascal,
> >Vax Pascal is surely the closewr product/environment, but it's much
> >harder to work with than Turbo: there's the Vax system editor(s), the
> >crude screen/printer i/o, virtually no system interfaces (perhaps not
> >important, but you'll be amazed how little the Pascal language Wirth
> >created was designed to accomplish...), and IMHO useful only for basic
> >programming instruction.

> Huh?  DEC Pascal (aka VAX Pascal) has tons of extensions beyond ISO 7185
> that makes is useful as an OpenVMS systems programming languages.  There
> are hundreds/thousands of OpenVMS customers that have written real-world,
> useful, bet-your-business, etc. applications using DEC Pascal.

As you say "hundreds/thousands" but not "hundreds of thousands" (as in TP)

- Show quoted text -

Quote

> Saying that DEC Pascal is only an academic language ignores all the extra
> features that we put into the language to make it usable.  And, by the
> way, do did Borland.

> --
> John Reagan
> DEC Pascal Project Leader
> Application Compilers and Environments
> Digital Equipment Corporation
> rea...@hiyall.enet.dec.com
> Disclaimer:  The opinions and statements expressed by me are not
>              necessarily those of Digital Equipment Corporation.
> --

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