Board index » delphi » Learn pascal before programing delphi?

Learn pascal before programing delphi?

I need to teach delphi to a new programer thats been hired in my company. He
only knows how to program in Fox (ouch!). Should I teach him pascal before I
teach him delphi.
 

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Quote
Dylan Thomas wrote:

> I need to teach delphi to a new programer thats been hired in my company. He
> only knows how to program in Fox (ouch!). Should I teach him pascal before I
> teach him delphi.

        IMHO, no.  That will only encourage procedural programming habits.  If
I was going to avoid going straight to Delphi, I'd use a pure OO
language like Smalltalk instead.

        But when I'm training someone to do real work for the company, I teach
them OO using Delphi for examples.  Delphi is not ideal for this, but
since our products are written in Delphi, it gets them up and running
the fastest.

        -Craig

--
Craig Stuntz            Vertex Systems Corporation
Senior Developer        http://www.vertexsoftware.com

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Thanks. It does make sense. I'm an electronic engineer so I only knew
Asembler, C and pascal and I rebember the switch to OO programing was hell
for me since I did not have any formal schooling on the subject. I learned
with TP7 and Turbo Vision with just the example programs and manuals then I
used Borland pascal for windows (OWL) and all the windows spesific stuff
drove me nuts. Again I did not knowmuch about windows programing. After that
delphi 1 was like candy for my brain.

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Quote
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:21:56 -0500, Craig Stuntz <cstuntz@no_spam.vertexsoftware.com> wrote:
>    But when I'm training someone to do real work for the company, I teach
> them OO using Delphi for examples.  Delphi is not ideal for this, but
> since our products are written in Delphi, it gets them up and running
> the fastest.

My Fox guys here have had little trouble learning to use Delphi.  

--
Daniel J. Wojcik
http://www.genjerdan.com/

There is water at the bottom of the ocean

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Well, you've got one "no" -- but I'll vote "yes".

I've been a Delphi trainer for a long time and have trained many many (many!)
people with backgrounds like you describe. I agree very much that you want to
teach OO principles as soon as practicable, however, concepts of program
structure (i.e., scope, "uses", "interface" versus "implementation") and
parameter passing are very important to avoid confusion and frustration down the
road. So, start with this type of grounding in Pascal, then emphasize OO as much
as you can to avoid entrenchment in "procedural" coding styles.

Quote
Dylan Thomas wrote:
> I need to teach delphi to a new programer thats been hired in my company. He
> only knows how to program in Fox (ouch!). Should I teach him pascal before I
> teach him delphi.

--
http://www.rahder.org/max
1 (608) 239-4128

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Quote
Dylan Thomas wrote:

> I need to teach delphi to a new programer thats been hired in my company. He
> only knows how to program in Fox (ouch!). Should I teach him pascal before I
> teach him delphi.

Relative to the poet Dylan Thomas ?  One of my favorites.

Tom

--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tom Backer Johnsen, Psychometrics Unit,  Faculty of Psychology |
| University of Bergen, Christies gt. 12, N-5007 Bergen,  NORWAY |
| Tel : +47-5558-9185                        Fax : +47-5558-9884 |
| Email : bac...@psych.uib.no    URL : http://www.galton.uib.no/ |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


I moved from Fox to Delphi.   My first program was heavily procedural - I didn't
know about all the cool stuff Delphi does automatically (ie, I opened a text
file and read all the lines into an array instead of using a stringlist, etc.).

Back in my Fox days, I always used to try to hire Pascal programmers strangely
enough...

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Quote
Max Rahder wrote:

> Well, you've got one "no" -- but I'll vote "yes".

        I'm not sure we actually disagree all that much... :)

Quote
> I agree very much that you want to
> teach OO principles as soon as practicable, however, concepts of program
> structure (i.e., scope, "uses", "interface" versus "implementation") and
> parameter passing are very important to avoid confusion and frustration down the
> road. So, start with this type of grounding in Pascal, then emphasize OO as much
> as you can to avoid entrenchment in "procedural" coding styles.

        At a certain, very low level of abstraction (inside methods) nearly all
programming is procedural.  The C++ version of "Hello, world" *is* as
rediculous as it looks.  

        In another conversation in this newsgroup, folks discussed writing
short (40 lines or so) programs to learn the art of the procedure before
moving on to program architecture.  Obviously, the things you describe
are important and need to be taught at one time or another.

        A good question is how to make the transition from writing methods to
learning about how methods are used.  My approach has been to teach OO
program organization first from a conceptual standpoint, then to talk
about writing methods once the student understands how methods are used,
then to back up and teach how to design and implement an OO
architecture.  The idea for this comes from how we bring new developers
up to speed -- give them simple things to do first, then tackle program
design.

        One of the principle problems with Delphi is that it lets you get away
with -- even encourages -- some very non-OO things.  Someone who knows
how to write a word processor in non-O Pascal might write a very
unmaintainable Delphi program.  So while I don't have a problem with the
idea of learning fundamentals first, I don't want folks to go too far
down the procedural path, because those habits are hard to shake off.

        Anyway, that's MHO.  I think these discussions are interesting because
I'm not convinced that anyone, myself included, has ever hit upon the
ideal teaching method; there's still a lot of room for innovation.

        -Craig

--
Craig Stuntz            Vertex Systems Corporation
Senior Developer        http://www.vertexsoftware.com

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Never had a straight answer to that from either my grandfather or father.
But I think not.

Tom Backer Johnsen <bac...@psych.uib.no> escribi en el mensaje de noticias
38DA8D73.24A37...@psych.uib.no...

Quote

> Dylan Thomas wrote:

> > I need to teach delphi to a new programer thats been hired in my
company. He
> > only knows how to program in Fox (ouch!). Should I teach him pascal
before I
> > teach him delphi.

> Relative to the poet Dylan Thomas ?  One of my favorites.

> Tom

> --
> +----------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Tom Backer Johnsen, Psychometrics Unit,  Faculty of Psychology |
> | University of Bergen, Christies gt. 12, N-5007 Bergen,  NORWAY |
> | Tel : +47-5558-9185                        Fax : +47-5558-9884 |
> | Email : bac...@psych.uib.no    URL : http://www.galton.uib.no/ |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------+

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Craig Stuntz <cstuntz@no_spam.vertexsoftware.com> escribi en el mensaje de
noticias 38DAA3B0.2EDA5C36@no_spam.vertexsoftware.com...

Quote
> Max Rahder wrote:

> > Well, you've got one "no" -- but I'll vote "yes".

> I'm not sure we actually disagree all that much... :)

> > I agree very much that you want to
> > teach OO principles as soon as practicable, however, concepts of program
> > structure (i.e., scope, "uses", "interface" versus "implementation") and
> > parameter passing are very important to avoid confusion and frustration
down the
> > road. So, start with this type of grounding in Pascal, then emphasize OO
as much
> > as you can to avoid entrenchment in "procedural" coding styles.

> At a certain, very low level of abstraction (inside methods) nearly all
> programming is procedural.  The C++ version of "Hello, world" *is* as
> rediculous as it looks.

True you do need to handle procedural concepts to understand methods.

In Delphi I find that pointers are hidden to some level to simplify
development (compared to OO programming with TP7 and BP7 for windows, but
this can lead to confusion if you are a beginner. The pointers are there and
you need to be sure to free objects as required and so forth.

- Show quoted text -

Quote
> In another conversation in this newsgroup, folks discussed writing
> short (40 lines or so) programs to learn the art of the procedure before
> moving on to program architecture.  Obviously, the things you describe
> are important and need to be taught at one time or another.

> A good question is how to make the transition from writing methods to
> learning about how methods are used.  My approach has been to teach OO
> program organization first from a conceptual standpoint, then to talk
> about writing methods once the student understands how methods are used,
> then to back up and teach how to design and implement an OO
> architecture.  The idea for this comes from how we bring new developers
> up to speed -- give them simple things to do first, then tackle program
> design.
> One of the principle problems with Delphi is that it lets you get away
> with -- even encourages -- some very non-OO things.  Someone who knows
> how to write a word processor in non-O Pascal might write a very
> unmaintainable Delphi program.  So while I don't have a problem with the
> idea of learning fundamentals first, I don't want folks to go too far
> down the procedural path, because those habits are hard to shake off.

I agree.

Quote
> Anyway, that's MHO.  I think these discussions are interesting because
> I'm not convinced that anyone, myself included, has ever hit upon the
> ideal teaching method; there's still a lot of room for innovation.

 I guess it also depends on your goal as "teacher".  Teaching to make a good
programmer or teaching so some one can get the job done with some level of
supervision.

- Show quoted text -

Quote
> -Craig

> --
> Craig Stuntz Vertex Systems Corporation
> Senior Developer http://www.vertexsoftware.com

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


I come from a Clipper world to Delphi. Yeah it was kinda hard, but really I
had some first approach with some other stuff like visual objects 1.0
(horrible, but was based on oop!). Now i do love it. Clipper was starting to
add oop via 3rd party libraries like Class(y) and Fivewin/objects, that was
my start.

And yes... I learned some (little) pascal as a hobby little...

This is, therefore my history:

1) GW-Basic/Turbo Basic (compiler only)
2) Turbo C 1.0
3) Turbo Pascal 4/5
4) Clipper 87 (God bless it). Foxbase+ as a DB Manager.
5) Clipper 5.
6) VO 1.0
7) VB 1.0/2.0/3.0
8) Delphi 1-5..... and nothing else....

In summary, the only important thing is that your trainee knows a little
programming and that you can put the OOP thing in his head. It would be
harder if coming from VB perhaps. If he's new to windows programming it
could help a lot in fact!

Dylan Thomas <dy...@intelnet.net.gt> escribi en el mensaje de noticias
8bdlra$e...@bornews.borland.com...

Quote
> I need to teach delphi to a new programer thats been hired in my company.
He
> only knows how to program in Fox (ouch!). Should I teach him pascal before
I
> teach him delphi.

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Quote
"Dylan Thomas" <dy...@intelnet.net.gt> wrote in message

news:8bdlra$eb98@bornews.borland.com...
Quote
> I need to teach delphi to a new programer thats been hired in
my company. He
> only knows how to program in Fox (ouch!). Should I teach him
pascal before I
> teach him delphi.

    I would say yes. Ultimately all pascal programming boils
down to
    procedural programming. Afterall, what are methods? Also,
there is a
    logical evolution from records to objects that becomes clear
once
    you explain records and procedural variables.

    Once basic object pascal is mastered Delphi programming is
much
    clearer.

--
Hilton Evans --
----------------------------------------------------------------
Chemical Structure Drawing,
Molecular Mechanics for Windows,
C-13 NMR Shift Prediction for Windows,
http://home.ici.net/~hfevans/chempen.htm

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Quote
>I need to teach delphi to a new programer thats been hired in my company.
He
>only knows how to program in Fox (ouch!). Should I teach him pascal before
I
>teach him delphi.

Have him read the OP language guide.  It is a small book (relatively
speaking) and covers all of the principle language concepts.  I am reading
it for my third or fourth time, and I always seem to learn something new.

Regards,

Wayne

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Quote
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:35:49 -0600, "Dylan Thomas"
> <dy...@intelnet.net.gt> wrote: Never had a straight answer to that
> from either my grandfather or father. But I think not.

Well, it's nothing to rage about.  I'd just go gently.

Good night.

--
Daniel J. Wojcik
http://www.genjerdan.com/index.htm
--

Re:Learn pascal before programing delphi?


Quote
Wayne Sherman wrote:

> Have him read the OP language guide.  It is a small book (relatively
> speaking) and covers all of the principle language concepts.  I am reading
> it for my third or fourth time, and I always seem to learn something new.

        Dense, but very much worth the effort.  A starting point?  I'm not
sure.  But I don't think you can really claim to know Delphi without
having studied it.

        -Craig

--
Craig Stuntz            Vertex Systems Corporation
Senior Developer        http://www.vertexsoftware.com

Go to page: [1] [2]

Other Threads