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Life after BCB6


2005-04-02 12:30:29 PM
cppbuilder78
There were many discussions on this group regarding the alternative C++
development environment. Some people were a bit worried about moving to
MS-VC++ and some other did not want to go to Linux. And some (I'm afraid
not many) preferred to rely once again the Borland's empty promises and
wait (forever) for the next version of C++ builder embedded in some
version of (hopefully) upcomming version of Delphi.
I am a long time Borland Turbo Pascal, Delphi, C++ Builder, JBuilder
user. I can not say that I'm long time Kylix and CBuilderX user, just
because -UNFORTUNATELLY- these two products thrown into garbage bin very
quickly by Borland itself.
I and my company have large set of VCL oriented code based. We loved and
used the VCL alot. But as many other things in life, we need to accept
that its time is over. The VCL is living its last hours. It is not easy
for us to move away from our VCL habbits and from our Borland
dependence. We bite the bullet. Borland's strange development and
support policies (or lack of them) are forced us to drop all Borland
products from our SW development line. We do not only feel sorry but
also a bit of angry because we have been kept in limbo by Borland's
false promises.
Despite the fact that we have enjoyed the privilidges of easy to use
Borland IDEs and component libraries for long time, since we lost our
trust to Borland as company (not its products), we were looking at
different alternatives. At the end we decided to continue with Qt from
Trolltech (www.trolltech.com).
Qt provides VCL like (and better) component library not only for Windows
but also for Linux, Unix, MacOS and some embedded platforms. It's
development tools are NOT cheap. But its free Linux tools are powerfull
enough for all our projects. Currently we are using the Qt in Linux and
we have limited seat licences for Qt for Windows. Once we are happy with
the Linux verion of our applications, all we need to do is recompile the
same code in Qt for Windows. Considering the number of developers in our
company, at the end, Qt development environment cost less than Borland
licenses.
What is VERY important to highlight is that, for an experienced VCL
programmer transition from VCL to Qt widgets is NOT too difficult!
Example Qt programs and demos provided freely on the net are extremly
useful for VCL to Qt transition.
I recommend you to look at the short movie (~9minutes) at the
www.trolltech.com/video/overview.html
Regards,
Goodbye Borland...
 
 

Re:Life after BCB6

Timothy,
VCL is living in its final hours and so you switch to Qt? Qt is never going to become
popular enough to lead to a big 3rd party libraries market like the one VCL has. For
years to come VCL will be a far richer environment than Qt just from the existing
commercially available and free VCL controls.
My guess is that the free JVCL controls alone provide a far richer environment of
controls than Qt provides.
If the existing Qt components are good enough for your needs then you have very low
needs. I understand that some people have such low needs. But that is not the case
for most people here.
Timothy wrote:
Quote

I and my company have large set of VCL oriented code based. We loved and
used the VCL alot. But as many other things in life, we need to accept
that its time is over.
Despite the fact that we have enjoyed the privilidges of easy to use
Borland IDEs and component libraries for long time, since we lost our
trust to Borland as company (not its products), we were looking at
different alternatives. At the end we decided to continue with Qt from
Trolltech (www.trolltech.com).

Qt provides VCL like (and better) component library not only for Windows
but also for Linux, Unix, MacOS and some embedded platforms. It's
development tools are NOT cheap. But its free Linux tools are powerfull
enough for all our projects.
 

Re:Life after BCB6

"Randall Parker" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
Timothy,

VCL is living in its final hours and so you switch to Qt? Qt is never going to become
popular enough to lead to a big 3rd party libraries market like the one VCL has. For
years to come VCL will be a far richer environment than Qt just from the existing
commercially available and free VCL controls.

My guess is that the free JVCL controls alone provide a far richer environment of
controls than Qt provides.

If the existing Qt components are good enough for your needs then you have very low
needs. I understand that some people have such low needs. But that is not the case
for most people here.
Randall,
I think that you're basing your ideas on your specific needs. I also think that
you sound a bit condescending in your assessment that if Qt supports a user's
requirements then their needs are low. We have hundreds of GUI objects that have
been transported to Qt and work as well or better than VCL stuff. There are also many
3rd party vendors that supply Qt based stuff. (KDChart for example) We do a lot
of modeling, database etc. If anything, we have less problems than we did with
VCL.
I understand that you use a lot of non trivial VCL components. You've mentioned
this before. I've seen nothing in VCL that isn't available in Qt or can't be built with
the basic Qt tools. Qt is probably not the small "hole in the wall" organization that
you think either. They are used internationally and across several platforms. They
have open source versions for Linux and have announced an open source windows
license with Qt4. This, in itself, will increase their market. I have no idea what their
market share is compared to Borland, but their newsgroups are just as busy as
these.
Sure, VCL stuff was pretty nice except that it's platform dependant, not currently
available on any platform other than win32, not supported well by Borland and
not very compatible with C++. What will you do if Borland changes it's mind
again and dumps BCB? Switch to Delphi?
Look, the way that Borland has treated its C++ users is deplorable. People are
looking for other options. Qt is one of them. There are others. Maybe if Borland
realized that they in fact did have some competition, they would treat their users
more professionally.
My .02.
 

{smallsort}

Re:Life after BCB6

Duane Hebert wrote:
Quote
Randall,
I think that you're basing your ideas on your specific needs. I also think that
you sound a bit condescending in your assessment that if Qt supports a user's
requirements then their needs are low.
I think Timothy was being ridiculous in trying to assert that VCL was in decline
versus Qt. VCL has a long way to decline before it reaches Qt's level of usefulness.
Quote
We have hundreds of GUI objects that have
been transported to Qt and work as well or better than VCL stuff. There are also many
3rd party vendors that supply Qt based stuff. (KDChart for example) We do a lot
of modeling, database etc. If anything, we have less problems than we did with
VCL.
Many? The Qt 3rd party market offerings are orders of magnitude smaller than VCL's
third party market.
Also, do all these 3rd party offerings work on Win32? My impression is that most Qt
users are developing for Linux.
Quote
I understand that you use a lot of non trivial VCL components. You've mentioned
this before. I've seen nothing in VCL that isn't available in Qt or can't be built with
the basic Qt tools.
Oh get off it. With how many man-years of effort? I use a graphics control from
IOComp.com which took many man-years to develop. You can't clone it in a month or
two. I've written some code on top of it to extend it and I know how much effort that
took on my part. So I have some feel for how much effort the IOComp developers have
put into it. I'm not going to code all that stuff myself just because I'm mad at Borland.
I use a tree control from DevEx that combines some of the functionality of a grid
with that of a tree. I'd be shocked if Qt land had anything equivalent.
Then there is JVCL. I am using more of their controls. They keep getting better. Then
there are all the other 3rd party controls libraries and non-GUI libs for VCL world.
I keep using more of this stuff.
Quote
Qt is probably not the small "hole in the wall" organization that
you think either. They are used internationally and across several platforms. They
have open source versions for Linux and have announced an open source windows
license with Qt4. This, in itself, will increase their market. I have no idea what their
market share is compared to Borland, but their newsgroups are just as busy as
these.
Why would someone use Qt to do Win32 RAD development if they didn't need to go
cross-platform?
Quote
Sure, VCL stuff was pretty nice except that it's platform dependant, not currently
available on any platform other than win32, not supported well by Borland and
not very compatible with C++. What will you do if Borland changes it's mind
again and dumps BCB? Switch to Delphi?
Only Win32. Only what 97+% of the PCs are running on corporate desktops.
If Borland revs BCB just once with the Delphi personality and then doesn't rev it
again it will still be better than Qt for Win32 development for years to come.
Quote
Look, the way that Borland has treated its C++ users is deplorable.
You are preaching to the choir.
Quote
People are
looking for other options. Qt is one of them. There are others. Maybe if Borland
realized that they in fact did have some competition, they would treat their users
more professionally.
If you need cross-platform compatibility then Qt makes sense. But for people who do
not need to write apps for anything aside from Windows I do not see the point of
using Qt.
 

Re:Life after BCB6

"Randall Parker" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news:424efbf0$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
I think Timothy was being ridiculous in trying to assert that VCL was in decline
versus Qt. VCL has a long way to decline before it reaches Qt's level of usefulness.
Right now, VCL's level of usefulness is 0.
Quote
Also, do all these 3rd party offerings work on Win32? My impression is that most Qt
users are developing for Linux.
Qt is cross platform. Most of the stuff developed with it is as well.
Quote
>I understand that you use a lot of non trivial VCL components. You've mentioned
>this before. I've seen nothing in VCL that isn't available in Qt or can't be built with
>the basic Qt tools.

Oh get off it. With how many man-years of effort? I use a graphics control from
IOComp.com which took many man-years to develop. You can't clone it in a month or
two. I've written some code on top of it to extend it and I know how much effort that
took on my part. So I have some feel for how much effort the IOComp developers have
put into it. I'm not going to code all that stuff myself just because I'm mad at Borland.
It's not a question of being mad at Borland. It's a question of making your
company dependant on Borland. I said before, I know that you have some
heavy 3rd party VCL stuff. I just think that you shouldn't get on someone's case
because they're not in the same situation.
Quote
I use a tree control from DevEx that combines some of the functionality of a grid
with that of a tree. I'd be shocked if Qt land had anything equivalent.
I think you may be shocked then. You may also be shocked if you have
a need for Unicode/Utf8 support. This is native with Qt and probably
saved us as much time as it cost us to write a chart tool. Hcve you actually
looked at Qt? Have you looked at their translator? Their assistant?
Do you know what it's like to have a problem and get a solution from
the supplier? Do you know what it's like to report a bug and have it
fixed in the next release? Do you know what it's like to get updated
releases?
You seem to base most of your idea on the fact that there
are 3rd party tools available, not on Borland's product. Sure there are
good 3rd party tools for VCL. We used TeeChart extensively. We also
updated our licenses each time we updated BCB.
Quote
Then there is JVCL. I am using more of their controls. They keep getting better. Then
there are all the other 3rd party controls libraries and non-GUI libs for VCL world.
I keep using more of this stuff.
I'm not sure what you mean by 3rd party controls libraries and non-GUI libs
for VCL. I use lots of control libs (Hilscher, Siemens, OptoMux etc) and
ALL of them came with MSVC dlls. I had to convert them to BCB with
implib and change some of their defines to use Borland ones. Do you mean
GUI controls?
What would a non-GUI lib for VCL be?
Quote
Why would someone use Qt to do Win32 RAD development if they didn't need to go
cross-platform?
In our case, the need for cross platform was there but we would have
had to find something else anyway. Why? Because Borland announced
that BCB was dead. CBX didn't have any GUI support and was too buggy
to use anyway. Look at the time frame since Borland has released any
C++ product. We have products to get out. We've expanded our developer
group. We needed to buy serveral more licenses. What would you have
done? BCB was too buggy and there was no solution from Borland in
sight. There may be now but it's been years and we still don't know
what they're doing or when other than some "letter of intent" to ship
something with some future release of Delphi.
Quote
>Sure, VCL stuff was pretty nice except that it's platform dependant, not currently
>available on any platform other than win32, not supported well by Borland and
>not very compatible with C++. What will you do if Borland changes it's mind
>again and dumps BCB? Switch to Delphi?

Only Win32. Only what 97+% of the PCs are running on corporate desktops.
I'm not sure about your figures here, but at any rate, we don't do corporate
desktop apps. Not everyone does you know. We do tend to use win2k boxes
as many of our current users are familliar with that but we just bought a company
in Germany that does similar work and their client base refuse to use windows.
Quote
If Borland revs BCB just once with the Delphi personality and then doesn't rev it
again it will still be better than Qt for Win32 development for years to come.
It might be as far as GUI development, though I doubt it. Qt is very actively
supported. The problem with BCB is the level of bugs and the lack of
patches. Do you think the C++ will be all of a sudden perfect just because
it's in a Delphi package? Do you think it will get fixed if it's not?
Quote
>Look, the way that Borland has treated its C++ users is deplorable.

You are preaching to the choir.
I don't mean to be preaching at all. I think you have your opinion
and it's different from mine. I don't think you should have tried
belittling Timothy simply because he doesn't apparently agree with
you. I don't either.
Quote
If you need cross-platform compatibility then Qt makes sense. But for people who do
not need to write apps for anything aside from Windows I do not see the point of
using Qt.
Well unless they need an actively supported tool that offers decent C++ compliance,
functionality with libs like boost, native Unicode support, additional tools like translators
etc. and NORMAL support, then I agree with you. They should stick with BCB.
Look Randall, I don't want to get into a flame war with you. You obviously
have a large investment in VCL. I suggest that you keep pressing Borland
to live up to their commitments. I sincerely hope that it works out for you.
I do wish that you would lighten up on the people who have answered Borland
with their wallets.
 

Re:Life after BCB6

"Timothy" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
I and my company have large set of VCL oriented code based.
We loved and used the VCL alot. But as many other things in
life, we need to accept that its time is over. The VCL is living
its last hours.
What makes you say that? I guess you haven't yet heard the news that
Borland is currently working on C++ support for its next version of the
Delphi IDE, essentially becoming the next version of BCB. That includes
full (and updated) VCL support. It is in development right now. Boland has
been talking about publically since December 2004, including showing public
demos of the work in progress.
Quote
It is not easy for us to move away from our VCL habbits and
from our Borland dependence.
Then don't. Wait 6-9 months or so for the next version to be released.
Gambit
 

Re:Life after BCB6

"Randall Parker" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in
message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
VCL is living in its final hours and so you switch to Qt? Qt is never
going to become popular enough to lead to a big 3rd party libraries
market like the one VCL has. For years to come VCL will be a far
richer environment than Qt just from the existing commercially available
and free VCL controls.
Not to mention the fact that Borland already tied incorporating Qt before
(ie: CLX) and it turned into a big flop.
Gambit
 

Re:Life after BCB6

Timothy wrote:
Quote

Despite the fact that we have enjoyed the privilidges of easy to use
Borland IDEs and component libraries for long time, since we lost our
trust to Borland as company (not its products), we were looking at
different alternatives. At the end we decided to continue with Qt from
Trolltech (www.trolltech.com).

I think that trust is the key point. In particular, can anyone trust that
Borland is going to continue to support VCL for C++.
Frankly I doubt it. There was some euphoria in this newsgroup 2-3 months
ago when Borland made a statement about C++ and VCL, after from some
prompting by loyal customers. I just had a quick look at the Borland
website. I found a page about Borland Enterprise Studio for C++ that talks
about C++ BuilderX. I didn't spot anything about VCL.
As far as I can see, Borland either doesn't understand what a great product
VCL was, or has decided that it is any case not commercially viable.
I therefore think that it is right to be looking to migrate away. Qt is
certainly an excellent product from a user point of view. I'm writing this
posting from a newsreader based on Qt (Knode), and many of the other
applications I use on a daily basis are based on Qt.
I migrated my own project away from C++Builder / Kylix{C++) about a year
ago, Although its a spare time project, I do envisage it having a long term
future and didn't want to base it on a product that was being phased out. I
opted to use the open source Lazarus library. This is based on Free Pascal
- I built a thin interface layer between my C++ code and Free Pascal. This
means that my original VCL based code runs with only a few cosmetic
changes.
In my work environment we don't use C++, but are making increasing use of
open source. It seems to me that a key advantage of this is that you have
control over the software you are using. Even if the maintainers of the
software you depend on lose interest, then you can make essential
modifications to it yourself.
One last thing. I found the manuals for my original copy of C++Builder (ver
1) last week in my loft. I won't be throwing them out, but neither will I
be bringing them downstairs anytime soon.
--
Chris Gordon-Smith
London

 

Re:Life after BCB6

"Duane Hebert" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Sure, VCL stuff was pretty nice except that it's platform dependant,
not currently available on any platform other than win32, not supported
well by Borland and not very compatible with C++. What will you do
if Borland changes it's mind again and dumps BCB? Switch to Delphi?
Not going to happen. Borland already dropped BCB once, and the user outcry
was so large that Borland now picked it up again, and is now working on a
new up-to-date version to bring it back up to par with Delphi.
Gambit
 

Re:Life after BCB6

"Remy Lebeau (TeamB)" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news:424f201f$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
Not going to happen. Borland already dropped BCB once, and the user outcry
was so large that Borland now picked it up again, and is now working on a
new up-to-date version to bring it back up to par with Delphi.
Sorry if I can't share your confidence Remy. I have
no reason to. Borland seems to have picked up
BCB again after the user outcry but seems to have
dumped CBX in the process. Besides, they're so
close lipped about what they're doing, I'm not sure
if it's worth waiting several months to find out what
they release.
FWIW, I hope that they provide an excellent C++
product with this latest plan. I know a lot of people
are depending on them.
We'll see what happens.
 

Re:Life after BCB6

Timothy wrote:
Quote
I and my company have large set of VCL oriented code based. We loved
and used the VCL alot. But as many other things in life, we need to
accept that its time is over. The VCL is living its last hours.
Nonsense! The VCL is living on very strongly. There will be a new
version of C++Builder (as part of the Galileo -- the C#Builder and
Delphi 2005 -- IDE), and in Delphi, both the Win32 as well as the .NET
VCL have been enhanced. FWIW, in the Delphi groups there were many
people who said they'd rather use the VCL for .NET than e.g. .NET's own
Windows Forms, also for new projects.
The VCL is very well alive and kicking.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] rvelthuis.bei.t-online.de
"Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to
yours." -- Yogi Berra.
 

Re:Life after BCB6

Duane Hebert wrote:
Quote

"Randall Parker" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote
in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>Timothy,
>
>VCL is living in its final hours and so you switch to Qt? Qt is
>never going to become popular enough to lead to a big 3rd party
>libraries market like the one VCL has. For years to come VCL will
>be a far richer environment than Qt just from the existing
>commercially available and free VCL controls.
>
>My guess is that the free JVCL controls alone provide a far richer
>environment of controls than Qt provides.
>
>If the existing Qt components are good enough for your needs then
>you have very low needs. I understand that some people have such
>low needs. But that is not the case for most people here.

Randall,
I think that you're basing your ideas on your specific needs. I
also think that you sound a bit condescending in your assessment that
if Qt supports a user's requirements then their needs are low. We
have hundreds of GUI objects that have been transported to Qt and
work as well or better than VCL stuff. There are also many 3rd party
vendors that supply Qt based stuff. (KDChart for example) We do a
lot of modeling, database etc. If anything, we have less problems
than we did with VCL.

I understand that you use a lot of non trivial VCL components.
You've mentioned this before. I've seen nothing in VCL that isn't
available in Qt or can't be built with the basic Qt tools. Qt is
probably not the small "hole in the wall" organization that you think
either. They are used internationally and across several platforms.
They have open source versions for Linux and have announced an open
source windows license with Qt4. This, in itself, will increase
their market. I have no idea what their market share is compared to
Borland, but their newsgroups are just as busy as these.

Sure, VCL stuff was pretty nice except that it's platform dependant,
not currently available on any platform other than win32, not
supported well by Borland
Huh? Borland even ported the VCL to .NET, and has enhanced the Win32
VCL as well as the VCL.NET. Both platforms are very well supported by
Borland. The VCL will also be part of the new BCB (in the Delphi IDE)
they announced.
So where on earth do you guys get the idea about the demise of the VCL?
It doesn't even make one little bit of sense at all.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] rvelthuis.bei.t-online.de
"Life is like a box of chocolates." -- Forrest Gump
 

Re:Life after BCB6

Duane Hebert wrote:
Quote

"Randall Parker" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote
in message news:424efbf0$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...

>I think Timothy was being ridiculous in trying to assert that VCL
>was in decline versus Qt. VCL has a long way to decline before it
>reaches Qt's level of usefulness.

Right now, VCL's level of usefulness is 0.
Tell that to those who bought Delphi 2005. They'll laugh long and hard
about that.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] rvelthuis.bei.t-online.de
"Don't be so humble - you are not that great."
-- Golda Meir (1898-1978) to a visiting diplomat
 

Re:Life after BCB6

Duane Hebert wrote:
Quote

Besides, they're so
close lipped about what they're doing, I'm not sure
if it's worth waiting several months to find out what
they release.
Close lipped? When have you ever seen something like this for BCB6?:
bdn.borland.com/article/0,1410,32990,00.html
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] rvelthuis.bei.t-online.de
"In any contest between power and patience, bet on patience."
- W.B. Prescott
 

Re:Life after BCB6

"Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news:xn0e0jtaf4v8ae006rudys-toshiba@www.teamb.com...
Quote
Tell that to those who bought Delphi 2005. They'll laugh long and hard
about that.
The name of this group is .cppbuilder.non-technical.
There's no cpp in Delphi 2005.