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Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)


2006-04-24 04:17:45 AM
cppbuilder56
Alisdair Meredith[TeamB] wrote:
Quote
Pete Fraser wrote:

[...]
10,000 classes does not seem *too* high if you are trying to wrap all
10,000 new classes in .NET 2.0. Let's assume that all or most of the
Win32 functions are already mapped in .NET 1.1 so most of the 10,000 new
classes won't wrap Win32 functions.
Quote
the Windows APIs for every MS platform Vista touches, and I would
certainly expect .NET wrappers for (most) everything in the new OS.
IMHO not every flat function must be wrapped in an object oriented
abstraction. E.g. Win32 enumeration functions can be mapped simply to
lists returned by a single function. Thus reducing the number of
functions to implement in a class. Additionally each class consists out
of several functions. So a very high number of flag functions may be
wrapped in a low number of classes.
Quote
My own perspective of Vista native vs .NET is pretty much a Win 3.0
view. 'Native' API is running the system, and .NET is a pretty new
layer smeared on top. From within .NET world you can treat is as-if it
was the whole OS and be none the wiser, if you choose. It is still not
clear that it will progress to a Win95-like role reversal, and neither
can we say it won't. We are certainly years away from when that might
happen though, too far out to be worrying about it now.
Since the kernel isn't managed there must be a native abstraction for
each kernel function, commonly a native user dll. So far you are right.
Everything that can be done in .NET can be also done in Win32.
But the point is complexity.
I see it this way:
Let's take for example DirectX. Everybody may use it's functions to
create a 3D game. Generally a 3D engine is developed at first. This is a
very complex task and needs a lot of time. It's much easier to develop a
game if you are using an already existing 3D engine.
AFAIK the new Vista WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation, codename
Avalon) is a managed layer over DirectX. I don't know if the managed
classes and their functions are mapped on another flat layer on top of
DirectX, but I suppose they aren't.
So if you want to access this managed graphics layer you either can
access and create the managed objects from native code by hosting the
CLR or you won't have any chance to reuse the code and create a WPF GUI
application. But I suppose this would be a very tedious task,
programming WPF from native code. What would be possible is that another
VCL layer abstracts WPF itself and Delphi / BCB developers may continue
developing VCL applications as they are doing for Win32. But I don't
know yet, if this will be true for native applications too ?
Quote
Right now I'm more concerned about concurrency problems, and how to
make robust, efficient use of the multiple cores appearing in desktop
hardware over the next few years...
I'm too. This was one reason I stated that C++ might evolve not fast
enough (C++/CLI discussion). Though there is already a huge effort done
regarding concurrency, I hope I read about a proposal for C++ and not a
Microsoft only proposal for C++/CLI.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in C++ standard and that it's good to have
a stable OS and platform independent C++ standard which doesn't adopt
each new idea. But I'm also concerned that the evolution of multi core
cpu's will be much faster than the evolution of C++ and that higher
abstraction languages like C#, Managed C++ or Java might have an
advantage in this regard, because the runtime could delegate and map
code execution to the different cores automatically, or at least easier.
Andre
 
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Mike B wrote:
Quote
"Ramona van Riet" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>Om 09:12:44 uur, 23.04.2006, schreef Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu:
[...]
Can anyone say that the Win32 API has not been expanded and improved upon
for Windows Vista?
It has been improved, sure. But not all API's will be available to Win32
Regarding the new 3D desktop:
Quote from the Windows SDK: "You canít call Windows Presentation
Foundation from a true unmanaged program"
Quote
regards
Mike
Regards Andre
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

New API's from Microsoft may only be in Net, but you're free to write
your own in Win32/64/128.
Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu wrote:
Quote
"Ramona van Riet" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:xn0ela341lc4445026
@newsgroups.borland.com:
>>Well, Bill Gates is on record as saying that Win32 will be around for a
>>very long time to come.
>Around yes, but also fully equipped with new technology?

Exactly. Around - but many new API's are going to be .NET only.


--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu)
"Programming is an art form that fights back"

Stuff: www.KudzuWorld.com
Blogs: www.KudzuWorld.com/blogs

Yes I work for Microsoft. However this is my personal posting, please
see: www.KudzuWorld.com/Microsoft.iwp
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

I seem to remember a legal ruling that stated Windows could not have MS-only
API calls.
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Pete Fraser wrote:
Quote
At the ACCU conference yesterday, Herb Sutter (MS Architect)
said that there are 10,000 new classes in .NET 2 and 100,000 methods.
He then went on to say that only *some* of these are available in
the Win32API and that the *only* way to get at the other APIs was
using .NET which was why the C++/CLI compiler was created
(a lot of MS Apps are written in C++ and wouldn't be able to access
the Vista APIs otherwise).
Interesting, so this means either
- future versions of e.g. Office will be .NET
- these API aren't important
?
Quote
I assume that Herb knows what he is talking about, so this must
be definitive information. (?)
Rgds Pete


 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Florian Klaempfl wrote:
Quote
Interesting, so this means either
- future versions of e.g. Office will be .NET
- these API aren't important
?
or
- Some apps will be a mix of Win32/64 and .Net.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Which is what Herb Sutter showed us.
He showed an internal version of PowerPoint with
some .NET additions and said that that was what
MS were doing - mixing C++/Win32 with C++/CLI
Rgds Pete
"Bruce McGee" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Florian Klaempfl wrote:

>Interesting, so this means either
>- future versions of e.g. Office will be .NET
>- these API aren't important
>?

or

- Some apps will be a mix of Win32/64 and .Net.
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Pete Fraser wrote:
Quote
Which is what Herb Sutter showed us.
He showed an internal version of PowerPoint with
some .NET additions and said that that was what
MS were doing - mixing C++/Win32 with C++/CLI
Exactly.
Why settle one (and only one) when you have the option of picking and
choosing from two (or more). Having more options is almost always
better.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Quote
Interesting, so this means either
Well, no, there are more choices than that. For example, only part of Office
might need to be .NET
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
_____________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Skype : jim.cooper
Tabdee Ltd www.tabdee.ltd.uk
TurboSync - Connecting Delphi to your Palm
_____________________________________________
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Hi!
Quote
What is different is that many new OS features
will be exposed only via .NET.
That statement has been proven false a month ago in this group
when the number of assemblies in Vista has been counted
and did not exceed 1% or something like that code wise...
Vista will be 99% pure W32 code.
Regards!
Atmapuri
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Probably, but 1% of Vista will *only* be available via
.NET and that is supposed to be a *lot* of the new
Vista graphics features.
Rgds Pete
"Atmapuri" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Hi!

>What is different is that many new OS features
>will be exposed only via .NET.

That statement has been proven false a month ago in this group
when the number of assemblies in Vista has been counted
and did not exceed 1% or something like that code wise...

Vista will be 99% pure W32 code.
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

"Atmapuri" wrote :
Quote

>What is different is that many new OS features
>will be exposed only via .NET.

That statement has been proven false a month ago in this group
when the number of assemblies in Vista has been counted
and did not exceed 1% or something like that code wise...
Are you referring to the recent Grimes tirade against .NET as your
authority?
I just checked the most recent Vista build 5365 and there are 288 files in
the Windows/WinFX folder and 455 in Windows/Microsoft/Net/Framework folder.
These are either .NET assemblies or related files.
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Quote
FWIW, from what I've read recently, WPF (and especially
WPF/E) are /way/ more Win32\64 friendly than seemed was
going to be the case just a few years back.
Yes. And the anti.NET league conveniently forget to mention when dissing people,
that the information quoted was actually what MS themselves were saying at the
time.
And AFAIK they haven't changed their minds either, just the timescale.
There are already some non-OS things that are pure .NET
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
_____________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Skype : jim.cooper
Tabdee Ltd www.tabdee.ltd.uk
TurboSync - Connecting Delphi to your Palm
_____________________________________________
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Quote
Are you referring to the recent Grimes tirade against .NET as your
authority?
"Atmapuri" is one of the most virulent of the anti.NET league* :-)
I doubt anything you say will change that stance, strange though it is. It's not
a very sensible position, since it is completely obvious that .NET is hugely
popular. But that seems of little import to him/her.
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
*anti.NET, a new programming language based on the not operator and the Ostrich
Algorithm :-)
_____________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Skype : jim.cooper
Tabdee Ltd www.tabdee.ltd.uk
TurboSync - Connecting Delphi to your Palm
_____________________________________________
 

Re:Re: Vista and .NET (Win32 life may be limted)

Jim Cooper wrote:
Quote

>FWIW, from what I've read recently, WPF (and especially
>WPF/E) are /way/ more Win32\64 friendly than seemed was
>going to be the case just a few years back.

Yes. And the anti.NET league conveniently forget to mention when dissing
people, that the information quoted was actually what MS themselves were
saying at the time.
I have no doubt that there were plenty of Microsoft folk
pushing the .NET only line (/coincidentally/ at the time
where they were pushing those recalcitrant VB'ers to let
go of VB6) but we sometimes have to remind ourselves that
we're better served not listening to what M$ say but
actually watching what M$ /do/ :-)
Quote
And AFAIK they haven't changed their minds either, just the timescale.
Depends how long the grass is that they've kicked
the idea into... :-)
Quote
There are already some non-OS things that are pure .NET
Yes, absolutely, just as there are aspects of the system
where there will be no managed equivalent because it's not
relevant (some aspects of DirectX, for example). IMO, the
future of Windows will continue to offer a mix of both sides
and I don't have a problem with that.
It's the implied idea that not-.NET folk will be locked out
from some imaginary golden future that really puts peoples
backs up, IMO.