Board index » cppbuilder » RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????


2003-10-21 07:28:58 AM
cppbuilder101
Yes actually, I do think a daily update would be applicable under the
circumstances.
Firstly, no post was made here - which has been discussed to death, although
I still say that this is equally as appropriate a newsgroup and has been the
focus of most of the discussion.
Secondly, John Kaster did not make a post regarding the 'Open Letter', he
simply replied to particularly deep thread - it was not very apparent or
clear without a bit of hunting. I don't know if John Kaster is Borland's
official C++/C++Builder representative or not - if he isn't then I
apologise. However, if he is, then he is the only real and solid point of
contact that any of use have with Borland and with what is going on.
Therefore I do feel that some 'official feed back is appropriate - something
along the lines of "Hay guys sorry about Friday, legal department have
suggested that it will be cleared up by Tuesday, if not so I'll fire the lot
of them :-)"
So try to understand this - I, like many others, am not sitting here typing
for the fun of it, or because I like winding people up, starting arguments
or happen to be a 'college kid' with an alternative agenda (as was suggested
about mr_organic). I' am here, trying to make a point and get some
semi-solid feed back because I' am genuinely concerned. This is very major
stuff for many of us. Many have projects that are entirely VCL based -
projects which must be developed and supported throughout the whole software
cycle. Projects that we envisage may be developed over considerable time
periods and probably over more than on development-package version
(C++Builder5-to-6!) . These projects we depend upon for our livelihood (and
sanity). We employ programmers who specialise in C++Builder and VCL
development. We use third-party components which are VCL based.
Now, take that away and what have you got - Nothing!!!! I'm not going to
expand upon each and every aspect, but you get the picture. For example, no
company is going to continue developing and supporting third-party VCL's if
the architecture is dormant etc, etc.
Now, I know that Borland hasn't said it will or it won't. They haven't said
what the situation is with VCL or how they foresee the New BuilderX. They
haven't said much except it will all be outlined in the 'Open-Letter'. So
that is what I'm looking for. I'm not going to jump ship, I would LOVE to
see and new CBuilderX where I could create one application and compile for a
multitude of platforms. I would defiantly love to see it, especially if
they get around to including some of the key features that make C++Builder
so great (RAD Form Designer). If so, I'll buy it, I'll use it and I'll get
my team using it.
However, I want to know, now, what the situation is. I'm sick of sitting on
my hands waiting. I have one major project in the pipe-line and I want to
be sure that if I code it in Builder, there will be some defined path for
support and conversation in the future. Until I can see that, I can't start
development or I have to opt for a different mode / IDE for development. I
can't wait for ever. It's costing me money.....
More over, these action, by Borland, are not filling me with confidence or
much loyalty - which I have had plenty of. I've purchased every version of
Builder Enterprise (except v4) and Delphi. I've sung it's parses to many
and through all posts. But as a loyal customer, I don't expect to be
treated like this. How can I be confident that I will see bug-fixes if the
company can't even muster a {*word*76}y 'Open-Letter' in three weeks, or even
make a mainstream post apologising for delays. I mean, 'Builder Direct' is
quick enough to tell us of the latest development, conferences and
deployments.
So, yes, I would like some official response form Borland or it's
representative, telling us what the situation is, even if there is no real
progress - it reassures customers.....
Sorry if the language offends, i will behave myself now...
"Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Ronald McDonald wrote:

>I think this pretty much puts into words the feelings of most C++
>Builder users, Mike.

It was posted already, on Saturday, ans since the Open Letter is about
CBX, it was posted to borland.public.cbuilderx.non-technical .

Followup set to that group.
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)

"If you can count your money, you don't have a billion dollars."
- J. Paul Getty (1892-1976)
 
 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

"Mike Collins" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
I don't know if John Kaster is Borland's official C++/C++Builder
representative or not - if he isn't then I apologise.
John Kaster is not the representative of C++Builder specifically, but rather
he is part of Borland's Developer Relations department in general. He also
covers Delphi as well, and a few others, I think.
Quote
However, if he is, then he is the only real and solid point of
contact that any of use have with Borland and with what is going on.
Not true. You have TeamB as well :-) If it doesn't come from TeamB, then
you will probably not get it from Borland directly, either. Borland tells
TeamB a lot of what is going on, and Borland controls what TeamB can and
cannot say and when, just like with its own people. In some ways, TeamB
could be seen as Borland employees without actually being employees :-)
Quote
So try to understand this
Your concerns are already well understood. People are aware of the issues
you mention.
Quote
This is very major stuff for many of us. Many have projects that
are entirely VCL based - projects which must be developed and
supported throughout the whole software cycle.
There has never been any question regarding that issue's importance, that is
the first thing everyone keeps bringing up.
Quote
Projects that we envisage may be developed over considerable time
periods and probably over more than on development-package
version (C++Builder5-to-6!) .
My company has projects spanning all the way back from BCB3 maintained up to
BCB6.
Quote
These projects we depend upon for our livelihood (and sanity).
We employ programmers who specialise in C++Builder and VCL
development. We use third-party components which are VCL based.
Let's not forget writing our own components for our specific needs.
Quote
Now, take that away and what have you got - Nothing!!!! I'm not going
to expand upon each and every aspect, but you get the picture. For
example, no company is going to continue developing and supporting third-
party VCL's if the architecture is dormant etc, etc.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but please wait for the Open Letters,
they will address the concerns regarding VCL. That is all anyon can
officially say at this point, whether TeamB or Borland, until the letters
are actually released.
Quote
I mean, 'Builder Direct' is quick enough to tell us of the
latest development, conferences and deployments.
Not for those of us who disable that annoying feature ;-)
Gambit
 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

You see Remy, that's all it took.
One simple message and I'm a million times happier than I was before. You
should work for Borland's PR :-) although I get the impression you have
bigger fish to fry.
I also now get the impression that TeamB know more than they are letting on
or can 'officially' let on. So I will leave it at that and take your word
(so to speak) for it. If you say "wait on it - you won't be disappointed"
then that enough for me - you have given me more that enough sound advice
and guidance in the past. I certainly was not suggesting that John Kaster
information had any president over that given by TeamB - they seem to be the
only ones keeping us informed and keeping the peace. This is the first time
(over the last three weeks) that I have even seen his name.
So based on that I will try to wait, quietly, for the arrival of the
'Open-Letter', although time is money. I really hope it is worth waiting
for and has some interesting information and if not, good, colourful
pictures :-)
I still maintain that Borland stance on this is disgraceful and it is wrong
to expect TeamB, whom and more officially software development experts and
advisers, to bare the brunt of the outcry and become the only messengers
here ("Do not shot me I' am only the messenger!") I' m sure you get what I
mean, that it would be in Borland's best interests to keep us informed, even
if there wasn't much to say!
Thanks again,
Mike Collins
P.S. Just turned of Builder Direct ;-)
"Remy Lebeau (TeamB)" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote

"Mike Collins" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...

>I don't know if John Kaster is Borland's official C++/C++Builder
>representative or not - if he isn't then I apologise.

 

{smallsort}

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
Quote
In some ways, TeamB
could be seen as Borland employees without actually being employees :-)

Is this like the way C++ Builder X is a bit like a RAD development tool
without actually being a RAD develpment tool :-)
(Sorry - but I just couldn't resist it.)
--
Chris Gordon-Smith
London
Homepage:
Email Address: Please see my Home Page
 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

"Mike Collins" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
I also now get the impression that TeamB know more
than they are letting on or can 'officially' let on.
That's never been a secret. TeamB is officially endorsed by Borland, we
have a special work relationship together. He handle the tech support here
in the newsgroups for them, and in return they let us into their inner
circles, more or less.
Quote
If you say "wait on it - you won't be disappointed" then that
enough for me
Well, I can only speak for the "wait for it" part. I can't comment for the
"disappointed" part one way or another, because I don't know what the final
letters are going to actually say for sure. I'm still waiting to see the
letters myself. Whether you'll be e{*word*277}d, or disappointed, I really
couldn't guess at the moment, sorry.
Quote
you have given me more that enough sound advice and guidance in the past.
I wish other people would listen to TeamB closer lately. We have a lot of
doomsayers in here right now, and our tongues, er fingers, are tied as to
what we can and can't say still :-(
Quote
I certainly was not suggesting that John Kaster information had any
president over that given by TeamB
John's got some precidence of his over over at Borland's, he's one of the
big shots. So if he says something one way or another, there's probably
some truth to it.
Quote
they seem to be the only ones keeping us informed and keeping
the peace. This is the first time (over the last three weeks) that I
have even seen his name.
He's been popping in and out on several groups over the last few weeks. JT
as well, who really is the official rep for C++ specifically.
Quote
So based on that I will try to wait, quietly, for the arrival of
the 'Open-Letter'
I wish others would share your attitude.
Quote
I still maintain that Borland stance on this is disgraceful and it is
wrong
to expect TeamB, whom and more officially software development
experts and advisers, to bare the brunt of the outcry and become the
only messengers here ("Do not shot me I' am only the messenger!") I' m
sure you get what I mean, that it would be in Borland's best interests
to keep us informed, even if there wasn't much to say!
I agree. But Borland has always been tight-lipped over its plans in
general. I'm a relatively new arrival to TeamB compared to the other
members, I'm sure the others have been tryng to get Borland to open up for
much much longer a time than I.
Gambit
 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

Quote
John Kaster is not the representative of C++Builder specifically, but
rather
he is part of Borland's Developer Relations department in general. He
also
covers Delphi as well, and a few others, I think.

If this is Borland's idea of Developer Relations, I'm not sure why bother.
Quote

Not true. You have TeamB as well :-) If it doesn't come from TeamB, then
you will probably not get it from Borland directly, either. Borland tells
TeamB a lot of what is going on, and Borland controls what TeamB can and
cannot say and when, just like with its own people. In some ways, TeamB
could be seen as Borland employees without actually being employees :-)

TeamB, over the years, have been a great resource for me and tons of other
developers, and I am forever grateful (particularly you, Remy). However,
TeamB simply cannot replace the authority of management in these
circumstances.
Management is aware of the importance of these issues to its customers. It
is incumbent on MANAGEMENT, not a group of committed non-employees, to
deliver the news, good or bad.
Quote
I hate to sound like a broken record, but please wait for the Open
Letters,
they will address the concerns regarding VCL. That is all anyon can
officially say at this point, whether TeamB or Borland, until the letters
are actually released.

 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

"Remy Lebeau \(TeamB\)" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in
Quote
I agree. But Borland has always been tight-lipped over its plans in
general. I'm a relatively new arrival to TeamB compared to the other
members, I'm sure the others have been tryng to get Borland to open up
for much much longer a time than I.
I agree. I also wish Borland would be more open about it's plans because
it is a nitemare to guess the business policies of a company. And
sometimes you just have to guess if you have to make a decision. All this
virtually invites FUD.
However, from Borland's perspective I also understand it to some degree.
The first open letter about Delphi announced a common IDE for .NET and
Win32. When Borland could not get it ready, many people were angry that
Borland does not keep it's "promise". I guess we all know that there can
be technical problems which make it necessary to change the goals for the
next release. There can also be other reasons, like marketing, which make
it necessary to deliver .NET now and not wait till the rest is finished.
Plans /can/ change because of problems, so I do not understand the outcry
about the broken promise.
But I also do not understand why Borland does not address the new plans
when it talks that plans has changed. .NET has 100 % now. Fine. But why
not address Win32 at the /same/ time. "We decided to finish .NET now and
plan to Delphi.Win32 in about x months" or "We decided to finish .NET now
and will integrate Win32 in x months" Whatever. Some people may be
disappointed about the delay, but the direction would be clear, and there
would not be much room for speculations.
The same goes for BCB. Why did'nt Borland address the open questions
about BCB/VDL /together/ with the announcment of BCBX.
And Kylix is a similar topic: Silence.
I think that Borland should be more open about it's plans. And the people
should realize that there can be delays and that plans can change.
As long Borland keeps silent, it might be sometimes not such a irrational
assumption to expect the worst: That the product line will not be
continued.
 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

Mike Collins wrote:
Quote

I also now get the impression that TeamB know more than they are letting on
or can 'officially' let on.
All TeamB members sign a very strong NDA before we join. We know more about
what is going on than the average customer, but we can not say anything until
someone from Borland explicitly lifts the NDA on the information or the
information is publicly released by Borland. That doesn't mean we don't point
out strongly when people present "facts" that we know are wrong but we can't
come out and tell the truth due to NDA restrictions.
--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
If there is somebody up there could they throw me down a line. Just a
little helping hand just a little understanding. Just some answers to the
questions that surround me now. If there's somebody up there could
they throw me down a line. (Fish)
 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

"David Ray" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
TeamB, over the years, have been a great resource for me and
tons of other developers, and I am forever grateful (particularly you,
Remy). However, TeamB simply cannot replace the authority of
management in these circumstances.
I never said that TeamB replaces Borland's management authority. What I was
trying to imply is that Borland and TeamB are in frequent contact with each
other, and Borland tells things to TeamB. As soon as Borland gives the
go-ahead, TeamB is all over getting that info out to the public ASAP,
sometimes even before Borland's people can get it out. That is why I said
if you don't hear it come from TeamB yet, you probably won't hear it from
Borland yet, either.
Quote
Management is aware of the importance of these issues to its customers.
It is incumbent on MANAGEMENT, not a group of committed non-
employees, to deliver the news, good or bad.
Borland's own people are under the control of management as well. If
Borland's own people aren't talking, then its probably because management
won't let them, just like they don't let TeamB talk until the approved time,
either.
Gambit
 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

David Ray wrote:
Quote
If this is Borland's idea of Developer Relations, I'm not sure why
bother.
Could you explain what you actualy mean? The fact that Developer
Relations is not only meant for C++Builder, or what?
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"Sometimes a scream is better than a thesis."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)
 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

"Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in
Quote
David Ray wrote:

>If this is Borland's idea of Developer Relations, I'm not sure why
>bother.

Could you explain what you actualy mean? The fact that Developer
Relations is not only meant for C++Builder, or what?

I think the point is that there doesn't seen to be much information flowing
out of the "Developer Relations" department right now, so we're wondering
what the purpose of such a department is. Saying "wait until later" and
"more information will be forthcoming" could be done by any PR flack.
mr_organic
 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

mr_organic wrote:
Quote
I think the point is that there doesn't seen to be much information
flowing out of the "Developer Relations" department right now, so we're
wondering what the purpose of such a department is.
That department must obey management, and legal also has a word to say
what DevRel can say and what not. So if there is silence, there is a good
reason for it (but not necessarily what the domsayers might think it is).
Quote
Saying "wait until later" and "more information will be forthcoming"
could be done by any PR flack.
It has been said. I see no need for them to keep repeating it each and
every day.
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"We have art to save ourselves from the truth."
- Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)
 

Re:RE. Where have all the sheep gone?????

Quote
I think the point is that there doesn't seen to be much information flowing
out of the "Developer Relations" department right now, so we're wondering
what the purpose of such a department is. Saying "wait until later" and
"more information will be forthcoming" could be done by any PR flack.
FYI, Developer Relations group is also responsible for BorCon which is
now less than two weeks away. At this point, I suspect they are very
busy with many of the finishing touches.
Robert Love