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Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?


2007-05-02 03:38:40 AM
cppbuilder50
Dear Michael, I think that this discussion is patetic.
C++ users have to fight against tons of problems, most of them due to the
lack of commercial strategy of CodeGear/Borland/Inprise, and you're
comparing a non C++ Delphi proprietary framework with a (bad) designed C++
framework? Why?
If you want I'll be happy to list some of the "strange" decisions made by
this company.
But this topic sounds offensive to my intelligence.
Luigi Bianchi
 
 

Re:Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?

"Luigi" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
Dear Michael, I think that this discussion is patetic.
C++ users have to fight against tons of problems, most of them due to the
lack of commercial strategy of CodeGear/Borland/Inprise, and you're
comparing a non C++ Delphi proprietary framework with a (bad) designed C++
framework? Why?
If you want I'll be happy to list some of the "strange" decisions made by
this company.
But this topic sounds offensive to my intelligence.

Luigi Bianchi
Luigi, you should copy enough of the post that you're replying
to for others to follow the thread. Especially when you change
the subject <g>
 

Re:Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?

"Duane Hebert" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
Luigi, you should copy enough of the post that you're replying
to for others to follow the thread. Especially when you change
the subject <g>

Dear Hebert, the problem IS the topic: it seems to me that spending time to talk about nothing (e.g. compare Delphi code with a bad written C++ Framework) is IMHO absolutely useless. It's the same thing as comparing VB.NET with Delphi or Java: different languages and possibly different targets. Also it seems to me not to be an honest comparison: what about support? what about IDE? How much time have you spent to switch from a release to a debug build? Or to fight against the BCB5 (was it in BCB5) IDE path bug? Or to switch from OWL to VCL? Or to fight against unfixed bugs? Also you should consider that with MFC you can target and use the latest technologies, while with VCL you should wait in most cases for a CodeGear release. How much time have you spent to follow the strategy of Borland on C++ product line?
1) OWL. They said: it is better designed than MFC, it's written in ANSI C++, you can recompile it with different compilers, etc..
2) VCL. They said: VCL is better than OWL and MFC because you write less code and it is visual. Well, it is no more for people who wanted an ANSI C++ framework and recompilable with different tools. Result: many C++ programmers switched to VS.
3) CBuilderX. They said: VCL is dead, and this new product is better because it uses an ANSI C++ framework and is cross-platform! Result: many C++ users switched to VS.
4) TC2006. VCL is back! This is our wonderful product, and we'll continue to improve it (even if we're solding it!), blah, blah, blah...
So, while MFC exist since over a decade and you can continue to use it, following Borland's strategy you should have changed 4 times, and in these years you haven't had decent bug fixes.
So, for this reason talking about how many lines of code are necessary using Delphi and MFC sounds to me an "offending line": don't you have more important things to do?
Luigi Bianchi
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?

"Luigi" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news:4638478e$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote

"Duane Hebert" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:

>Luigi, you should copy enough of the post that you're replying
>to for others to follow the thread. Especially when you change
>the subject <g>
>

Dear Hebert, the problem IS the topic: it seems to me that spending time
to talk about nothing (e.g. compare Delphi code with a bad written C++
Framework) is IMHO absolutely useless. It's the same thing as comparing
VB.NET with
<snip>
Not trying to argue with you. I'm just saying that it wasn't clear what you
were referring to. You seem to have solved that problem with this post.
And no, I'm not sure what use comparing to MFC is to anyone either.
FWIW, the argument in the past that BCB was better than MFC was
a bit worn. But then again, I've never done much with MFC and still don't.
 

Re:Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?

The VCL ->wxWidgets saga was damaging (wich is much more serious when you
consider OWL->VCL-wxWidgets->VCL !!)
Suggestion (to Michael Swindell): include wxWidgets and OWLNext in the
'Partner/Companion' CD of BDS2007.
Both frameworks 'as is', redirect support to the community. VCL as main
framework and OWLNext / wxWidgets as alternatives.
So you don't forget your CBuilderX users and BCx users.
Saludos
Sebastian
"Luigi" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >escribi?en el mensaje
Quote

...
How much time have you spent to follow the strategy of Borland on C++
product line?
1) OWL. They said: it is better designed than MFC, it's written in ANSI
C++, you can recompile it with different compilers, etc..
2) VCL. They said: VCL is better than OWL and MFC because you write less
code and it is visual. Well, it is no more for people who wanted an ANSI
C++ framework and recompilable with different tools. Result: many C++
programmers switched to VS.
3) CBuilderX. They said: VCL is dead, and this new product is better
because it uses an ANSI C++ framework and is cross-platform! Result: many
C++ users switched to VS.
4) TC2006. VCL is back! This is our wonderful product, and we'll continue
to improve it (even if we're solding it!), blah, blah, blah...

So, while MFC exist since over a decade and you can continue to use it,
following Borland's strategy you should have changed 4 times, and in these
years you haven't had decent bug fixes.

So, for this reason talking about how many lines of code are necessary
using Delphi and MFC sounds to me an "offending line": don't you have more
important things to do?

Luigi Bianchi
 

Re:Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?

In my opinion, the best thing MFC has going for it in the GUI-realm is
the Codejock Xtreme TookitPro. Seriously, look at it. The ribbon
control is to drool over!
www.codejock.com
Download the compiled demos and use that ribbon control, then compare it
against whatever VCL offers; the TMS ribbon control is amateurish by
comparison.
Programming in MFC is a total bear, but Codejock makes it worthwhile.
The Codejock skinning is very fast and seamless, unlike with the VCL
skinning options.
Also, I notice that the *fastest* desktop database for the VCL (by a
huge margin) is actually DSQLite, because the author married the CPU
registers well with the SQLite library for maximum efficiency. Well,
that same internal efficiency is gained by every single optimized C++
app not crossing DLL boundaries.
The last thing I want to mention, if you are writing a high-performance
app, is that C++ apps do not generally suffer from the CUMULATIVE
OVERHEAD syndrome symptomatic with so languages. "Cumulative Overhead"
is the condition where you spend a year of your time putting you
application together, to find out that your language has a compiler that
is "just" about 20% lower in code speed, the runtime has "just" about
20% lower speed, the database is "just" 20% slower, the garbage
collection slows things "just" a tiny bit, and your third-party controls
slow things "just" a little more because of their sloppiness. Before
you know it, your application is running at half the speed of your
competitor. Good GUIs and speed are both {*word*226} selling points. MFC's
evil is that it is so THIN. MFC's virtue is that it is so thin. With
the MFC-Codejock combination you get maximum good-looking GUI plus max
speed. Nothing can beat it. Nothing.
 

Re:Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?

Mike Vance yazm?s,:
Quote
In my opinion, the best thing MFC has going for it in the GUI-realm is
the Codejock Xtreme TookitPro. Seriously, look at it. The ribbon
control is to drool over!

www.codejock.com

Download the compiled demos and use that ribbon control, then compare it
against whatever VCL offers; the TMS ribbon control is amateurish by
comparison.

Programming in MFC is a total bear, but Codejock makes it worthwhile.
The Codejock skinning is very fast and seamless, unlike with the VCL
skinning options.

Also, I notice that the *fastest* desktop database for the VCL (by a
huge margin) is actually DSQLite, because the author married the CPU
registers well with the SQLite library for maximum efficiency. Well,
that same internal efficiency is gained by every single optimized C++
app not crossing DLL boundaries.

The last thing I want to mention, if you are writing a high-performance
app, is that C++ apps do not generally suffer from the CUMULATIVE
OVERHEAD syndrome symptomatic with so languages. "Cumulative Overhead"
is the condition where you spend a year of your time putting you
application together, to find out that your language has a compiler that
is "just" about 20% lower in code speed, the runtime has "just" about
20% lower speed, the database is "just" 20% slower, the garbage
collection slows things "just" a tiny bit, and your third-party controls
slow things "just" a little more because of their sloppiness. Before
you know it, your application is running at half the speed of your
competitor. Good GUIs and speed are both {*word*226} selling points. MFC's
evil is that it is so THIN. MFC's virtue is that it is so thin. With
the MFC-Codejock combination you get maximum good-looking GUI plus max
speed. Nothing can beat it. Nothing.
Just visit the following site. Marco Binic has already done what you are
asking for. And it is free.
mxs.bergsoft.net./
 

Re:Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?

Sabetay Toros wrote:
[snip]
Please, quote properly!
Thanks,
Alex
 

Re:Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?

Sabetay Toros wrote:
Quote
Marco Binic has already done what you are asking for. And it is free.

mxs.bergsoft.net./
Promising, but DevExpress already has such a product that is not
pre-alpha. It's not free but is fully supported:
www.devexpress.com/Products/VCL/ExBars/Ribbon.xml
Tom
 

Re:Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?

Alex Bakaev [TeamB] wrote:
Quote
Sabetay Toros wrote:
[snip]

Please, quote properly!

Thanks,
Alex
Sorry I'didnt want to offend you. Jordan, Alex & Marco.
 

Re:Re: VCL vs MFC Study: On what planet do you live?

I am impressed that Marco has made so much progress so quickly. Yes,
impressed indeed. Codejock's ribbon is still more polished, but yes --
MFC is always a bear to work with.
Quote
Just visit the following site. Marco Binic has already done what you are
asking for. And it is free.

mxs.bergsoft.net./