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Re: News on C++ Open letters


2003-09-23 05:23:29 AM
cppbuilder95
"Marcelo R. Lopez, Jr." < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
I'm sorry people, but any sentence that has the words "migration"
and "support" chained by a "/" pretty much well says something akin to:

"We might have tools to help you move your VCL/CLX based
applications to the CBX architecture" and "We might continue to
supply updates to C++Builder 6 Studio/Kylix 3"
Please wait until you read the official announcements before you pass
judegement over them.
Quote
There's NOTHING committal about EITHER of those two statements...nothing..
That is why you must wait until the official announcement to see what they
actually say. They were simply informing people that there would be
announcements soon, not the specifics of those announcements.
Quote
In the absence of something definitive, the reader is left to speculate
the
subjective.
Case in point... people (yourself included) have been taking things WAY WAY
out of context and proportion. Wait for the announcements, they will
address more concerns than the first letter.
Gambit
 
 

Re:Re: News on C++ Open letters

Remy,
When there IS no context, there's no context for anything to be taken out
of. Those statements from J. LeBlanc are RIDDLED with "MAYBE" and "POSSIBLY"
throughout them. SO my "WAY WAY out of proportion" statements are PERFECTLY
valid. The fact that after a week of this, that "no official announcement"
HAS been made, is in and of itself an indication that WHAT MOST VCL/CLX
developers are looking for is NOT what they are going to hear in the
"official announcement". From what I've gathered here, gleaning them from
all the "innuendo" laden statements made by TeamB members, I'm willing to
make a prediction, and even take bets:
1. C++BuilderX is it. There's no such thing as BCB7.
2a. The "RAD" interface of choice is wxWindows ( migration tools "MAY" be
provided "sometime" ).
2b. The "RAD" interface MAY include a VCL/CLX capable designer "sometime".
3. You're on your own with the third party components you may have
purchased, or may be using today.
4. We'll continue to provide some updates/fixes for BCB6 for a <insert time
period here>, "maybe".
What you and most of the other TeamB members are missing....IS the point.
You keep dodging it like Neo, or Morpheus dodging bullets.....The "official
statement" SHOULD'VE come out WITH the announcement for C++BuilderX, so that
developers can in fact MAKE those decisions as to whether to stick with
Borland, or move onto something else. It's the proper ethical business way
to have done right by it's customers. PERIOD.
You can try and dance around it ALL you want, from here until the cows come
home, but the fact is that none of you have had the guts to walk up to David
Intersimone ( or someone who has the authority to answer), and say, "<Insert
executive's name here>, YOU NEED to answer these people's questions". That's
what you should be doing, that is, if your purpose is to HELP the customer.
Which oddly enough, according to Borland's website, is what you're really
here to do. Help.
The ONLY way you're going to be of help, is if you pressure management to
come out with, and answer the questions as put to them. Don't act as though
you don't know the questions, I think myself and several others, have
drilled them into you guys enough for you to have them memorized by now.
You wanted me to bring the discussion over to this group from the other
group where I first found discussion about C++BuilderX....well...here I
am....So go ahead...answer the questions. Either that, or please get those
who can, to answer them. Sooner, rather than later, thank you kindly.
"Remy Lebeau (TeamB)" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote

"Marcelo R. Lopez, Jr." < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news:3f6f58d8$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...

>I'm sorry people, but any sentence that has the words "migration"
>and "support" chained by a "/" pretty much well says something akin to:
>
>"We might have tools to help you move your VCL/CLX based
>applications to the CBX architecture" and "We might continue to
>supply updates to C++Builder 6 Studio/Kylix 3"

Please wait until you read the official announcements before you pass
judegement over them.

>There's NOTHING committal about EITHER of those two
statements...nothing..

That is why you must wait until the official announcement to see what they
actually say. They were simply informing people that there would be
announcements soon, not the specifics of those announcements.

>In the absence of something definitive, the reader is left to speculate
the
>subjective.

Case in point... people (yourself included) have been taking things WAY
WAY
out of context and proportion. Wait for the announcements, they will
address more concerns than the first letter.


Gambit


 

Re:Re: News on C++ Open letters

"Marcelo R. Lopez, Jr." < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
The fact that after a week of this, that "no official announcement"
HAS been made, is in and of itself an indication that WHAT MOST
VCL/CLX developers are looking for is NOT what they are going
to hear in the "official announcement".
You cannot make that assumption. And if you had read what Borland said,
they will announce details specific about the VCL and CLX in the next week
or two. So, stop your complaining already, its not doing anyone any good,
least of all you. You're not going to get information any faster be
complaining and whining. You'll get it when everyone (including TeamB) gets
it.
Quote
1. C++BuilderX is it. There's no such thing as BCB7.
Borland has already stated that CBX is the future of their C++ line of
products.
Quote
2a. The "RAD" interface of choice is wxWindows ( migration tools
"MAY" be provided "sometime" ).
wxWindows is what is being looked into at the moment, but it has not been
announced as the 100% guaranteed future framework that will ultimately be
used. Whether Borland is continuing to write their own framework
themselves, or simply extend wxWindows for the long haul, is currently
unclear. Just like everything else in CBX, this is a stepping stone of
sorts.
Quote
2b. The "RAD" interface MAY include a VCL/CLX capable designer "sometime".
Nothing definately yet until you hear what Borland actually says about it.
Quote
3. You're on your own with the third party components you may have
purchased, or may be using today.
You canot make that assumption until you heard what Borland's actual plans
for the VCL/CLX actually are. For all you know, Borland will come out with
full support for the current libraries. Until then, you're just
speculating, and hurting yourself in the process by firing yourself up about
something that may or may not actually be the case.
At the very least, it is already a known and proven technical fact that the
pre-compiled binaries of the current VCL *can* be used with CBX as-is,
particularly since CBX is using BCB6's compiler until the new compiler can
be finished, thus all of the existing extensions and stuff are still
usuable. Other people are already starting to use CBX to maintain BCB-based
projects. The only thing not in place at the moment is the visual form
designer. Everything else works. For the visual stuff, you can still use
BCB to update your forms as needed, and then use CBX for compiling.
Quote
4. We'll continue to provide some updates/fixes for BCB6 for a <insert
time
period here>, "maybe".
No word on that.
Quote
The "official statement" SHOULD'VE come out WITH the announcement for
C++BuilderX
There is no argument with that. Borland agrees. That doesn't mean anything
could be done about it. They were *extremely* busy with getting things
done, and from what I've heard, quite understaffed for such a big public
release. They can only do so much in the alloted timeframes. What we have
is what all they do have. Things are continuing to come along and be
released. Why can't you learn a little patience?
Quote
the fact is that none of you have had the guts to walk up to David
Intersimone
( or someone who has the authority to answer), and say, "<Insert
executive's
name here>, YOU NEED to answer these people's questions".
Wrong. We have done exactly that, repeatedly. That is out of TeamB's
hands, so stop trying to blame us for it. We are doing everything we can
for the users, and Borland is aware of the facts. They are the decision
makers, not us. They are the time setters, not us. They have their own
deadlines to meet, many of them overdue. They can't always get in here in a
timely fashion to address user concerns to your satisfaction, they have
their own internal ones to deal with as well.
Quote
That's what you should be doing, that is, if your purpose is to HELP the
customer. Which oddly enough, according to Borland's website, is what
you're really here to do. Help.
We do a LOT more than you are giving us credit for. We do have a voice
inside Borland, and believe me, we're doing everything we can to get that
voice heard. There are just some things we can't talk about publically, tht
doesn't mean we aren't doing anything on your behalf, though.
Quote
The ONLY way you're going to be of help, is if you pressure
management to come out with, and answer the questions as put to them.
If you had bothered to listen lately, you would have heard that they are
ALREADY GOING TO DO EXACTLY THAT. Be patient.
Quote
Don't act as though you don't know the questions, I think myself and
several others, have drilled them into you guys enough for you to have
them memorized by now.
We're well aware of the questions. We have out own as well, and many of
them coincide with the users' questions. We don't have all of the answers
right now, we're still waiting on some things just like you are. We are end
users ourselves, afterall. We are not Borland employees, although sometime
we get treated like it. Even some of Borland's own people don't know what
all is going on, so how do you expect us to? We're drilling for as much
info as we can, but its not always coming out as fast as would be liked.
Gambit
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: News on C++ Open letters

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:23:45 -0700, "Remy Lebeau \(TeamB\)"
< XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote

"Marcelo R. Lopez, Jr." < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news:3f6f6cde$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...

>The fact that after a week of this, that "no official announcement"
>HAS been made, is in and of itself an indication that WHAT MOST
>VCL/CLX developers are looking for is NOT what they are going
<snip>
We're well aware of the questions. We have out own as well, and many of
them coincide with the users' questions. We don't have all of the answers
right now, we're still waiting on some things just like you are. We are end
users ourselves, afterall. We are not Borland employees, although sometime
we get treated like it. Even some of Borland's own people don't know what
all is going on, so how do you expect us to? We're drilling for as much
info as we can, but its not always coming out as fast as would be liked.


Gambit

Sounds like a little patience is in order here! I have not really been
hurt much by Borland since the Owl1 to Owl2 upgrade.. I can wait a
bit.
Thanks for the information
Jeff Kish
 

Re:Re: News on C++ Open letters

Marcelo R. Lopez, Jr. wrote:
Quote
The fact that after a week of this,
that "no official announcement" HAS been made, is in and of itself an
indication that WHAT MOST VCL/CLX developers are looking for is NOT
what they are going to hear in the "official announcement".
No, it isn't. You may want to see that as such an indication, but it
simply isn't.
But it is useless speculating if you are right or wrong. The promised
Open Letter will tell you more. Until then, what you write IS pure
speculation. And no, I didn't read everything you wrote. I was always
taught to say what I wanted to say in the first few lines.
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when
there is nothing left to take away."
- Antoine de Saint Exupéry
 

Re:Re: News on C++ Open letters

Jeff Kish wrote:
Quote
Sounds like a little patience is in order here! I have not really been
hurt much by Borland since the Owl1 to Owl2 upgrade.. I can wait a
bit.
EXACTLY!
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"Testing proves the presence, not the absence, of bugs."
-- Edsger Dijkstra
 

Re:Re: News on C++ Open letters

M,
The more you look at wxWindows...the more you get this "old familiar
feeling".
Think of wxWindows as "OWL"-lite. For anyone who's ever done GUI development
under
C++, they'll see that wxWindows sits in their crosshairs....squarely between
MFC, and OWL.
Why Borland has refused to release OWL into the public domain despite
completely ceasing support
for Borland C++ 5.02 ( I think it ran out last year, if memory serves ), is
beyond me.
OWL is quite possibly just as portable as wxWindow ( with some underpinning
changes ), and certainly more well known to those who've ever worked with
C++Builder ( most of which were "immigrants" to C++ Builder from Borland
C++, in the first place ).
"M" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Leo Siefert wrote:

>I don't think that the wxWindows and available design tools that can be
>downloaded at this time are a good indication of what CBX will
>eventually deliver. Which doesn't mean I won't download it to play with
>while waiting for CBX...

Well, there are certain things that will be changed (technical at first
I'd take it, then features) and some that cannot. Once you twiddle
around w/ it a bit you'll see just how big of a step backwards it is in
terms of usability from the perspective of the developer. OTOH tho it is
a giant step forward in terms of portability. Back when, I almost went
for it, but Windblowz owns the desktop market, so portability wasn't a
big issue for me. In the end I might waste time/money on character
encoding issues, endianess, OSisms, library bugs and the like to not
make it worthwhile to get another 2% of 'market'.