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Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?


2008-03-06 11:49:03 PM
cppbuilder55
Bruce McGee wrote:
Quote
Maybe you could re-state both issues. I haven't followed all of the
posts, and it could be that we agree more than we think.
#1: I believe that Delphi developers are more loyal to CodeGear and
Delphi than they should be to the detriment of their own self interest.
They are not as open minded as other developers in other communities
to new technologies, languages, etc.
#2: Your statement about my personal open mindedness in regards to my
assessment of the Delphi Community and comparatively with other Delphi
developers.
It is in regards to #2 that I thought you were starting to get ugly. I
didn't call anyone out in particular.
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

"Brian Moelk" wrote
Quote
The people interested in Delphi know it's a
niche solution
Aw come on, Brian. Using the narrowest possible definition of Delphi's
target use, that 'niche' is win32 fat client development--a niche that
includes some 90% of the PCs in the world. Gee, hate for my potential market
to be limited to that ...
bobD
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

Brian Moelk wrote:
Quote
They are not as open minded as other developers in other communities to
new technologies, languages, etc.

This makes me laugh, quite frankly. I've never seen more close-minded
people than MFC developers.
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

42 wrote:
Quote
Excuse me, but how is switching to some other tools, as you suggest,
would help the existing Delphi users?
I'm not suggesting switching to other tools to anyone. People can do
what they want.
I'm expressing my opinion that I believe that Delphi developers are
loyal to CodeGear and Delphi to their own peril.
Quote
Your "solution" to your perceived
problem is to run away, which, assuming your hunch is correct, would
just accelerate the process. Whose side are you on anyway?
I'm on my side. I love Delphi, but I'm not going to advocate the use of
it when it's not the best tool for the job.
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

Yogi Yang 007 wrote:
Quote
Andre Kaufmann wrote:
>Yogi Yang 007 wrote:
>>>
>>>But anyways, the behavior should be configurable - is configurable.
>>>In VC I can reconfigure it, for BCB there is GExperts.
>>>
>>How do we do this?
>
>Do you mean BCB or VC ?
I mean in Delphi as BCB is off limits for me. :)
Hm, the IDE is the same - O.K. the compiler is somewhat different ;-).
Andre
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

"Brian Moelk" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news:47d0157c$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
John Furlong wrote:
>On an ongoing basis, I see the existing user base as the core
>constituency on which Codegear will depend for future Delphi sales.

Agreed.

>The sales prospects for net-new Delphi users seems to me to be quite
>dim.

Which is really bad for the long term viability for all Delphi users.
This is what I think existing Delphi users poo poo.
Excuse me, but how is switching to some other tools, as you suggest,
would help the existing Delphi users? Your "solution" to your perceived
problem is to run away, which, assuming your hunch is correct, would
just accelerate the process. Whose side are you on anyway?
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

Quote
Instead of thinking of splitting M$ why isn't CG developing other user
related software like Office Suite, etc. using their tools and prove to
the world that it is possible to developer really serious applications
with their programming languages. This would also allow them to build
another channel of income...
Borland tried to compete with Microsoft on that turf, and failed miserably.
Paradox vs.. Access, Visual dBase vs.. Visual FoxPro, Quattro Pro vs..
Excel.
They also had a licensing agreement with WordPerfect and marketed
Borland Office which was basically WordPerfect, Paradox, and
Quattro Pro packaged together (basically WordPerfect Office, Lol)
and it could not compete with Microsoft Office.
Quote
If you look back a few years M$ did not have all the tools that it has
currently. They either brought them or developed them slowly & gradually
and saw to it, that they are selling well in the market.... err... to an
extent.
That's true, but...
Back in the DOS days Microsoft had compilers for every major/
mainstream programming language (BASIC, C, C++, FORTRAN, COBOL,
Pascal, etc.) and IIRC many of these were made later to support
Windows development.
Quote
They have got huge collection of software to the extent that if the whole
world stops writing software for the Windows platform they can provide all
the software that any person/corporate would ever need right out of the
box..... Office Suit, RDBMS system, Development Tools, Web Server,
Application Server, Data Sharing server, ERP systems, Accounting Systems,
Office management systems, etc. etc.
Borland/CodeGear ha[s/d]:
Borland Application Server - There is/was also a Web Edition
Interbase, BlackFish
Delphi, Delphi for .NET, C++Builder, C#Builder, JBuilder
Full Stack of ALM tools (StarTeam, etc.)
Borland+CodeGear actually has everything a developer or organization
could need in that area, the problem is pricing and management.
I just mentioned the Office Applications they had which were crushed
in competition by the Microsoft applications. I highly doubt they would
be able to compete *efficiently* in the area of ERP/Accounting/Office
Management Systems, etc. seeing as how their current solutions are
pretty much "just getting by" (or not, in some cases).
Not only do they face fierce competition from commercial entities
(like Oracle, Microsoft, IBM, etc.), but there are open source alternative
which are cheaper and work just as well as many of their solutions.
Quote
What has CG or Borland done in this regards in all these years. Nothing
except buying dieing companies and technologies like Aston Tate, Paradox,
Framework, etc. And of course spending their efforts into building
compilers and RAD systems for open source programming languages.
Some of those acquisitions gave them really good intellectual properties
that allowed them to make other products better. Just because a product
failed doesn't mean that the company as a whole didn't benefit from the
acquisition.
Quote
Why are they wasting their precious resources like this? One needs to have
vision for all these and money will automatically flow in.
They make up for it by upping the price of Delphi, it seems. The price
barrier probably drove 20% (hypothetical, can be more or less) to Visual
Studio Standard/Professional Edition (even Visual Studio Express
Edition seems to enjoy lots of use by *gasp* professionals).
Quote
yes, one thing that they have done is release that shitty managed code
embedded SQL Engine (just to prove to M$ that they are serious about .NET)
which according to me has no market value.
I have no comment on BlackFish since I've never used it. Don't hear much
about it, though.
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

Brian Moelk wrote:
Quote
#1: I believe that Delphi developers are more loyal to CodeGear and
Delphi than they should be to the detriment of their own self
interest. They are not as open minded as other developers in other
communities to new technologies, languages, etc.
As you know, I strongly disagree.
Quote
#2: Your statement about my personal open mindedness in regards to my
assessment of the Delphi Community and comparatively with other
Delphi developers.

It is in regards to #2 that I thought you were starting to get ugly.
I didn't call anyone out in particular.
I was specifically commenting on your assertion that the Delphi
community was less open minded, but that you didn't include yourself in
that judgement.
I guess I just don't understand your criteria. I suspect that you mean
the subset of the community that refuses to look at any alternatives
out of some sense of stubbornness or some other reason that's equally
irrational.
Which means we just disagree on how many developers this actually
describes, and if it's more common in the Delphi community.
So maybe this is a very broad point that we can agree on:
If you're a developer, you owe it to yourself to expand your horizons.
All professions, really, but we're trying to stay on topic.
- Make the time to create a project in a completely different language,
even if you're just a hobbyist. There are more free tools and
tutorials around than you can shake a stick at.
- Read some of the Linux kernel blogs or mailing lists to get a feel
for how they manage revisions and why. Or some of the Java groups and
find out why they have advanced the cause of "best practices" more than
pretty much anyone.
- Go to technically oriented user group meetings, even if they aren't
directly related to what you're working on right now. Just pick
something that sounds fun or interesting. Meet other professionals in
your field and see what drives them. Make a point of sticking around
afterward if some of them get together for after meeting drinks. The
Delphi user group here always has a "beer sig".
- Take some courses. Evening classes don't cost much and only take up
one night a week.
- If you're working for a company, see if you can convince them that
sending you to training courses and/or technical conferences is in
their best interests. If it's out of town, make sure you fly out the
day after it ends. use the last night as an opportunity to get
together with some of the people you met at the conference for a final
(hopefully expensed) meal and some conversation. Who knows? You may
find yourself doing business with some of these people.
- Look through the project palette in your favourite development tool
and try something you've never tried before.
- Try out new features you've never tried before from the reviewer's
guide or the "Improvements since Delphi 7" posts.
- Sign up at Buzz-3D and check out the video training and Liz's
challenges in the Delphi Programming Classroom. These are not your
typical "hello world" challenges, either.
- Subscribe to technical blogs.
- Watch some online training videos and/or live chats. Codegear and
Microsoft have a lot, and there are any number of technical podcasts
available for free on iTunes.
- Try to find a video of John Lam talking about Ruby. Aside from the
Ruby specifics, he makes a pretty convincing argument for just trying
different things.
The worst that can happen is that you'll find some things that you
don't like or that just don't apply to you. What's more likely is that
you'll learn that you have more options than you previously thought.
The professional development (and demonstrated interest in same) won't
hurt your employment opportunities, either.
What do you have to lose?
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

"Brian Moelk" wrote
Quote

No, it's niche because of its marketshare/mindshare relative to other
tools. IMO, there's nothing necessarily wrong with niche...perhaps I
should have said "boutique".
You're misusing the term.
Calling something a niche product generally signifies that it's specifically
tuned--and generally only suitable for--a very specific and limited segment
of a much larger market. For example, a Spyker C8 Aileron is a niche
product because only a very small proportion of the auto-buying market can
afford one, and it only seats two. www.spykercars.nl/ or
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyker_Cars
While by definition the market leader is not a niche product, not being the
market leader doesn't make you one.
Quote
What would you call it?
The best solution available for building win32 applications and fat clients
<g>. That's a considerable, not niche or boutique, market segment.
bobD
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

Marius wrote:
Quote
"And meanwhile over the years their prices have climbed higher and
higher to the point that typical individuals just can't afford them"

He does have a point here. There *was* a time i would consider buying it
personally, but that has stopped for the obvious.
I bought Delphi 1 (standard), 7 (Full enterprise), D2006 (Ent) and
last year, RAD2007 (Ent) out of my own pocket. At this point in time,
I am waiting for whatever to arrive within my SA period. Quite
frankly, it's a bit discouraging to see the quality degenerate
so much from D7 to BDS2006.
The ball is in CG's court right now.
Quote

However, slow install, 8 months of disturbing 2007 bugs and failing help
also doesnt improve upgrade decisions. At least there is a trial to find
out such..
A limited trial period really *isn't* going to help at all. Not
everything (i.e. nigh-useless help file) is that obvious.
Edmund
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

Bruce McGee wrote:
Quote
Which means we just disagree on how many developers this actually
describes, and if it's more common in the Delphi community.
Yes. That's what I meant by agreeing to disagree.
Quote
So maybe this is a very broad point that we can agree on:

If you're a developer, you owe it to yourself to expand your horizons.
All professions, really, but we're trying to stay on topic.
[... a *great* list of things ....]
Agreed. You've got a great list of things there.
Quote
What do you have to lose?
IMO, Delphi developers have much more to lose by keeping all their eggs
in one basket.
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

"Bruce McGee" wrote:
Quote

- Read some of the Linux kernel blogs or mailing lists to get a feel
for how they manage revisions and why.
boycottnovell.com/
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

Nathaniel L. Walker wrote:
Quote
>Instead of thinking of splitting M$ why isn't CG developing other user
>related software like Office Suite, etc. using their tools and prove
>to the world that it is possible to developer really serious
>applications with their programming languages. This would also allow
>them to build another channel of income...

Borland tried to compete with Microsoft on that turf, and failed miserably.

Paradox vs.. Access, Visual dBase vs.. Visual FoxPro, Quattro Pro vs..
Excel.

They also had a licensing agreement with WordPerfect and marketed
Borland Office which was basically WordPerfect, Paradox, and
Quattro Pro packaged together (basically WordPerfect Office, Lol)
and it could not compete with Microsoft Office.

Think why did they fail. They also did not have any plans to fall back
on on failure.
They had all the tools that were considered to be tools of trade at that
time and has a very big fanatic following.
But the truth is that they failed and just withdrew from the market or
sold their failed products at a throw away prices to some company like
they sold Paradox to Corel Inc. Canada.
If they would have consulted me :wink: I would have told them to convert
Paradox database engine to Interbase and they would have had a killer
app again like PowerBuilder.
See ! PowerBuilder is still surviving and thriving.
Quote
>If you look back a few years M$ did not have all the tools that it has
>currently. They either brought them or developed them slowly &
>gradually and saw to it, that they are selling well in the market....
>err... to an extent.

That's true, but...

Back in the DOS days Microsoft had compilers for every major/
mainstream programming language (BASIC, C, C++, FORTRAN, COBOL,
Pascal, etc.) and IIRC many of these were made later to support
Windows development.

All the compilers were very hard to use under windows till VB came by.
Quote
>They have got huge collection of software to the extent that if the
>whole world stops writing software for the Windows platform they can
>provide all the software that any person/corporate would ever need
>right out of the box..... Office Suit, RDBMS system, Development
>Tools, Web Server, Application Server, Data Sharing server, ERP
>systems, Accounting Systems, Office management systems, etc. etc.

Borland/CodeGear ha[s/d]:

Borland Application Server - There is/was also a Web Edition
Interbase, BlackFish
Delphi, Delphi for .NET, C++Builder, C#Builder, JBuilder
Full Stack of ALM tools (StarTeam, etc.)

Borland+CodeGear actually has everything a developer or organization
could need in that area, the problem is pricing and management.

Yes pricing is the culprit. They have been increasing prices a lot just
to finance some idea that someone at CG/Borland has come up with!
Quote
I just mentioned the Office Applications they had which were crushed
in competition by the Microsoft applications. I highly doubt they would
be able to compete *efficiently* in the area of ERP/Accounting/Office
Management Systems, etc. seeing as how their current solutions are
pretty much "just getting by" (or not, in some cases).

Not only do they face fierce competition from commercial entities
(like Oracle, Microsoft, IBM, etc.), but there are open source alternative
which are cheaper and work just as well as many of their solutions.

They can easily compete but with the right set of pricing policies. I
think CG can initiate a project and then open it up as Open Source and
place one person who is on their payroll and is fanatic about that
project to promote it and keep it update and build it.
This is what Google (orkut.com, google desktop, etc.), M$ (subsonic,
iron python, etc.), etc have been doing this and are successful also.
Quote
>What has CG or Borland done in this regards in all these years.
>Nothing except buying dieing companies and technologies like Aston
>Tate, Paradox, Framework, etc. And of course spending their efforts
>into building compilers and RAD systems for open source programming
>languages.

Some of those acquisitions gave them really good intellectual properties
that allowed them to make other products better. Just because a product
failed doesn't mean that the company as a whole didn't benefit from the
acquisition.

I agree with that. The best way to beat the comition is to open the
product if you can't fight your competitor and win.
If IBM will open their product OS/2 warp, Windows days will get numbered
as Win32 apps can run natively in it without any hassle.....
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

Brian Moelk wrote:
Quote
IMO, Delphi developers have much more to lose by keeping all their
eggs in one basket.
Replace "Delphi" with "all" and I agree.
I'm not sure what's gotten you so down on Delphi recently.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

I.P. Nichols wrote:
Quote
"Bruce McGee" wrote:
>
>- Read some of the Linux kernel blogs or mailing lists to get a feel
>for how they manage revisions and why.

boycottnovell.com/
I was thinking of something more constructive.
kerneltrap.org/news
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
 

Re:Re: (Microsoft) The Future of Delphi?

Bruce McGee wrote:
Quote
Yet, there are.
D'oh!
Should read "Yes there are."
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software