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Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?


2003-10-31 02:01:04 PM
cppbuilder74
"William Meyer" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Sounds like a great situation, actually. Given the cost of
apartments in California, you're probably living better (and
saving more) than if you were in an apartment of your own
at twice the salary.
Exactly. Low cost of living, decent environment, high income holdings.
Don't get me wrong, I don't plan to live with my parents forever. I don't
want to be one of those guys who lives in his parents attic or whatever into
my 30's or 40's. That's just wrong! I do expect to be out of here sometime
in the next few years at most. I'm just not in any big hurry to push it
along right now, though, that's all.
Gambit
 
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

Remy Lebeau (TeamB) < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
"Hendrik Schober" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...

>You have to get kicked out? I thought, beeing
>23, it would be hard not to turn your back to
>your parent's home and start your own life! <g>

Hey, with the amount of benefits and privacy I get, why would anyone want to
leave? ;-)
To get a live?
Quote
>So you have a full-time job plus you work at
>home.

No. Working at home *is* my full-time job. My supervisor at the company I
work for requires that all of the software programmers in our department
work at home instead of at the office. Probably because he himself works at
his home, although he does claim various "security" reasons for keeping our
source code off of the company network altogether as well. But who am I to
complain to company policy? I hate working at an office building.
Mhmm. In my experience good software is
composed of many things, 60% of which is
communication. I consider beeing able to
get up from my chair, walk over to the
other guys and just chat about some
decision a very important thing.
Also, in our business working long hours
is common, staring at the monitor and
talking to the keyboard only is standard.
Working at home to me always feels like
not getting out among people anymore at
all.
Quote
Gambit
Schobi
--
XXXX@XXXXX.COM is never read
I'm Schobi at suespammers org
"And why should I know better by now/When I'm old enough not to?"
Beth Orton
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

"Ed Mulroy [TeamB]" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >escreveu na mensagem
Quote
He already was the son of rich parents. His mother was the poor one, she
did menial jobs like being serving on IBM's Board of Directors. His
schtick
was making it on his own. He does seem to have done well.
I ever tried to wonder why IBM had signed that soooo nice DOS License
Agreement with M$....
Things start to make sense now... So Bil's Mom was a top IBM manager!
Saulo
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

"Edward Diener" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >escreveu na mensagem
Quote
Jack Hanebach wrote:
>Saulo I. Regis wrote:
>>You'll be surprised as many doors will open for you after that!
>>
>>And don't forget that College is also fun :)
>
>On the flip side: If Bill Gates didn't drop out of colledge he'd be
>much poorer man now... ;)

I am so glad to know that the measure of a man is how much money he makes.
So... Let's applaude all drug dealers and Mafia's "capos"?
Saulo
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

"Remy Lebeau (TeamB)" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >escreveu na
mensagem news:3fa167c1$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote

"Saulo I. Regis" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...

>And don't forget that College is also fun :)

That's not what my earlier experiences taught me...
May be you had chosen the wrong course and/or Institution to study!
Anything is "fun" when you are doing what you like!
In regard to study... when you are studying what you like!
We live in a so called Knowledge Era. The real value in our economy now
resides in to have, or not, Knowledge!
And University is the place where real Knowledge is generated and where real
Masters are transferring their advanced knowledge to theirs pupils... for
truth!
You'll learn about what will come ... next! Ahead!
Ten years from now you'll be 33, right?
And MAY BE ! ... a 27 year old guy that graduated in College at 22, that is
talented like you and that already have 5 years of heavy duty work
experience will "eat your lunch" by, for example, taking from you that
promotion you would desire, and even, deserve (if you'll be working to a
Corporation).
But don't take my words for truth :)
May be you'll be like Bill Gates or a guy here in my country that never
studied and is the owner of the second major TV Network! Or the other that
is the owner of over 1,000 stores chain!
My advice for free... that you can throw away right now...
"Money is pilling?
Make the best investment... Invest on ... YOU!"
The better combination is Work & College ... because when you go to College
you know exactly why you are learning that and can apply what you learned
immediately in your work!
Saulo
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

Hi Rodrigo,
"Rodrigo Gómez" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >escreveu na mensagem
Quote
The first semesters were easy, and I
could work and study without much probelms. But after, they started with a
lot of homeworks, extra class activities, and so on.
In that situation everything is about time management and picking the right
course.
If you attend University along the day... Masters assume you are a
"student-only" person and will overload you with tasks to be done "in the
afternoon".
If you attend University in the night courses... Masters knows that you also
have to work to live so things are more reasonable about extra activities.
People that worked with me knew that I was taking College at night... and in
examination seasons I used to work part time one or two days before them to
be able to read hundreds of book pages that would be demanded.
All the time I had the lecture material on hand so I could read it in that
time when I was taking "a break".... lunch time... coffee breaks... or when
I had to give a break to my mind about the algorithm I was coding :)
Eventually I was not able at all to do the trick... and I were unnaproved
in 2 or 3 classes along the whole course. So I took permission from my boss
to attend those classes, again, in the next semester in day time. Those
hours were restituted during College hollydays!
People tend to support you when they see that you are doing the right thing!
Quote
I own the company I work for (well... 25% of it) and I really don't have a
fixed start/end hours.
So things are "easier" to you regarding "getting permissions" :)
Quote
There can be times when I'm from 8 am to 8 pm (or
longer), and I actually even work Saturdays and Sundays. So, being in the
school from 7 am to 1 pm, plus time to study and do all the school work,
was, for me, impossible.
Read above about electing the night period for study! Everything becomes
more manageable!
Quote
I also want to have a life and go to the movies
from time to time! :)
Week ends are made for that :)
Of course, Sundays mornings will be made to... sleep till "brunch" time...
you'll have to because if you don't you'll not survive the week ahead.
Quote
I have a lot of
books about maths and my father is a mathematician, so I can actually
study
and learn maths in my own schedule, but I have to say that I haven't done
it, though.
Nothing replaces an illuminated Master!
The guy that will open your mind speaking a phrase looking at your eyes :)
You can do that for yourself ... sure... but it's harder and most of time
the intention lies along the way...
Quote
I know that it's important to have a degree. But I have always thought
that
it's short-sighted to only consider the degree from a person, or to
consider
it the most important part, no matter the age.
You are right!
So avoid those Institutions that are only there to give you the degree
because you paid for it.
You'll pursue the knowledge that is behind the degree. I respect people that
have Knowledge... no matter where/how he/she acquired it!
But I believe that University is the best place to acquire the jump start in
high-level concepts!
In the end you'll have to keep on learning all the time. But you'll have a
wider open view to caught knowledge after your College experience.
Quote
Here in my company we have 3
persons that are undergraduated but they know and work better than some
(most!) of the persons with degrees that we have contracted before. At
least
in my country, unfortunately, the education is not really good to provide
real good software developers.
We always have to teach them anyway the stuff
we need
Sure they are people that stayed in "student-only" mode till they were
contracted by you. They lack real world experience that you and your fellows
are plenty!
That is why I believe that Work & College, simultaneously, is the best
combination.
Quote
Anyway, my mother always ask when I'm going back to the school...
What a good Mom you have!
Make her Happy :))
Saulo
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

"Adam Versteegen" wrote:
Quote

the fact that my folks live in the middle of nowhere in Australia might
have
a little to do with it though...

Wow. Here in Holland a lot of people would like to live in the middle of
nowhere but there isn't such thing in Holland<g>
Peter
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

"William Meyer" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >escreveu na mensagem
Quote
On 29-Oct-03, Remy Lebeau (TeamB) said:

>Easier said then done.
Who did say that it's easy ? :)
"William Meyer" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >escreveu na mensagem
Quote
And in the long run, it increases your worth to them
(and to others, should you decide to move on.)
Well said Bill !
Saulo
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
Quote
Damn straight! :-) That, and I haven't been kicked out of my parent's
home
yet, so I haven't been forced to find my own place yet. But that may
change
soon, though, I'm running out of room to expand my "office" (I work
full-time out of my home as well).
Havent been 'kicked out'? I've been outta home for 9 years now and am only
24. While I love my folks i'm in no hurry to move back.
the fact that my folks live in the middle of nowhere in Australia might have
a little to do with it though...
Vesty.
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
Quote
>Or ask (and firmly) that your employer let you go out
>to class during the day and come back and still put in at
>least 8 hours.

Easier said then done. Part of the reason why I stopped is because I
could
not fit classes and 8 hour work days into my schedule at the same time.
It can be done.. I started working full time during my final year at
university. Given that I was doing a double bachelor in engineer/business
admin, I was supposed to be attending about 25 hours of class a week.
It was extremely hectic/stressful, but I managed to get the best results I
had gotten while at uni. I think the fact that because I was forced to be
organised/regimented I was able to do extremely well (both at work and
university).
Really, I think you need to reconsider going back to school :).
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote:
Quote
>And don't forget that College is also fun :)

That's not what my earlier experiences taught me...
You either had a shitty school, or the wrong attitude.
I had an absolutely amazing time while in university... The only thing that
would make me think twice if asked to do it all again was that going back to
being a poor uni student would drive me nuts.
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

I had not considered the quantity of programmers who were on the market as a
consequence of the soft economy following the dot-com crash. I was assuming
that California R&D activities were growing again (naive belief in news
reports - why do I do that?). I know that in my area, NC, things have not
fully recovered.
Quote
... A few (Univ. of Waterloo in Canada a notable example) have ...
That is an INCREDIBLE school!!! They have been at or near the top in
software since at least 1972 (not a typo,>=31 years). For some reason they
don't seem to get press commensurate with how good they are. For years big
companies like IBM and Microsoft have been "inventing" things which Waterloo
had already been using for years. <g>
If Waterloo offered (non-introductory) courses related to software over the
net, even were they to not offer credit for them, I would seriously consider
taking them. (I no longer care if I get credit, just seek knowledge and
ability.)
. Ed
Quote
William Meyer wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

One other item.
The other day someone sent me a link to classified ads. Renting a ROOM in
California was about $1,000/month!!! The ads were for the SF Bay area but I
assume the LA area is similar.
A single guy has to earn something like $18K-$20K per year gross (before
taxes) just to cover the cost of where he sleeps. He probably needs to get
around $5K gross for the costs of a car (little public transportation in
CA), and other living expenses are commensurate (God help his wallet if he
smokes!).
Prices like that establish a base on which salaries are formed. In such an
environment a $40-odd K salary is not a lot of money.
. Ed
Quote
William Meyer wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

Quote
Things start to make sense now... So Bil's Mom was a
top IBM manager!
No, she was not that low in the organization.
Top IBM managers reported to the top IBM vice presidents. The top IBM vice
presidents reported to the IBM president. The IBM president reports to the
Board of Directors. She was one of the people on the Board of Directors.
Even with that, IBM did not give the business to Gates.
They tried to license or buy the CPM operating system. The guy who owned
the company which supplied CPM thought so little of them that he wouldn't
meet with them. They had to go to his home. When they got there his wife
came to the door and told them he was not there (as I remember it she said
he was "out fishing").
Gates had supplied them with Basic (that wasn't a special arrangement, he'd
already supplied others), so they asked him if he knew of any alternatives
to CPM. He told them he had one. After that his banker (smart banker!)
committed to a loan to help him buy Seattle Computer Products' DOS operating
system and the saga began.
As far as I can tell he went out of his way to avoid using family money and
family influence to help him succeed.
An example of how he did things: while we were developing on IBM mainframes
on the weekends (weekends because that is when computer time was available)
and getting paid for it, he was doing it in return for computer time instead
of money. He used the computer time to optimize the code he sold to people
like Atari. After work we'd go home to our apartment. He'd go home to a
low-rent, essentially ghetto room (aka super cheap).
Gates has led an interesting life. The part from when Microsoft reached the
top is probably the boring part. The interesting parts are from the days
where he was going to meet with a customer and they wouldn't rent him a car
because he was so young.
. Ed
Quote
Saulo I. Regis wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
 

Re:Re: Canadian Delphi Developers - are you Underpaid? Overpaid?

Hi Saulo!
Thanks for your comments! It's nice to see the point of view of other
persons that, in some way, have (or had) the same "problematic".
Quote
If you attend University along the day... Masters assume you are a
"student-only" person and will overload you with tasks to be done "in the
afternoon".
I would go to night school, the problem is that, at least in my city, there
are no night schools :(
Quote
So things are "easier" to you regarding "getting permissions" :)
Yes and no. Here in my company we don't have fixed hours, neither for me or
for the other persons that work here. The problem, at least with me, is that
I can't say: "I only work 40 hours a week". I need to finish what is needed,
no matter the time it takes. As I respond to myself, and this company is my
future, it's a lot more responsability. I haven't had proper vacations maybe
for 3 or 4 years. And my father hasn't had vacations in maybe 10 years or
more. The nice thing: I feel that I rest when working. I'm a total
workalcholic :)
Quote
Nothing replaces an illuminated Master!

The guy that will open your mind speaking a phrase looking at your eyes :)

You can do that for yourself ... sure... but it's harder and most of time
the intention lies along the way...
Yes, that's right. I have had really good masters along my life, but,
unfortunately, in the college they weren't what I really expected. Maybe the
problem is that I had really good masters in the high school, and I was
expecting to have at least one like that in college. Anyway, that's not an
excuse, I know. You have to deal with whatever is in front of you.
Quote
But I believe that University is the best place to acquire the jump start
in
high-level concepts!
Yes... not in vane a lot (maybe the majority) of research and new techs are
developed in Univeristies, or in arrangements with Universities.
Quote
In the end you'll have to keep on learning all the time. But you'll have a
wider open view to caught knowledge after your College experience.
Yes... and more in this business. I have a lot of books bought in the last
year that I have just partially read, or others that I haven't even opened!
Not to say all the posts in the newsgroups full of knowledge.
Quote
That is why I believe that Work & College, simultaneously, is the best
combination.
Totally! If only the colleges here see things that way...
Quote
What a good Mom you have!
Make her Happy :))
I'll try :)
Regards,
--
Rodrigo Gómez