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Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1


2004-11-20 05:14:38 AM
cppbuilder111
Randall Parker < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >writes:
Quote
Oscar Fuentes wrote:
>>That it has more users that are willing
>>to spend their spare time hacking their
>>editor than any other editor?
>Maybe. Or that it is fun and easy to create packages for Emacs.

Emacs and the whole open source movement is kinda like a cult. It
attracts people who want to engage in cult rituals.
Not quite. My main C++ compiler is not Free Software, even if G++
will do fine. What happens is that religious types are vociferous.
Quote
Okay, that may be an exaggeration. But consider the possibility that
Emacs is like car customization clubs that attract people who want to
customize their cars and show them to each other.
Remove the last part of the phrase and I mostly agree: people
appreciate Emacs because they can turn it on his very personal
editor.
Quote
>That is what I talk about on the part you snipped. Java is not as
>convenient as Lisp or Python are for customization.

I learned Lisp years ago and found it highly irritating.
Funny you say this here :-) Writing Lisp without the appropiate text
editor is a nightmare. Lots of people hates Lisp because of
parenthesis. A good editor makes this a non-issue. Emacs is the
canonical editor for writing Lisp. It becomes easier and faster than
writing C++, for instance.
[snip]
--
Oscar
 
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Randall Parker < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >writes:
Quote
Oscar Fuentes wrote:
>>That it has more users that are willing
>>to spend their spare time hacking their
>>editor than any other editor?
>Maybe. Or that it is fun and easy to create packages for Emacs.

Emacs and the whole open source movement is kinda like a cult. It
attracts people who want to engage in cult rituals.
Oh, please.
Quote
Okay, that may be an exaggeration. But consider the possibility that
Emacs is like car customization clubs that attract people who want to
customize their cars and show them to each other.
No, it's more of a tool that professionals use to do their job, and if
they happen to have specific needs they have the option to make
appropriate modifications so that it helps them do their jobs even
better.
Quote
>That is what I talk about on the part you snipped. Java is not as
>convenient as Lisp or Python are for customization.

I learned Lisp years ago and found it highly irritating.
The only real complaint people have is the parenthesis, but a good
colorizing editor solves this problem.
--
Chris (TeamB);
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Randall Parker < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >writes:
Quote
Oscar Fuentes wrote:
>The fact that there are more packages for Emacs than for any other
>editor should indicate something here.

Oscar, but what does that indicate?
For one thing, "interest."
Quote
It could indicate that lots of people write shoddy packages and
It could be, but in practice it generally isn't. Lisp isn't immune to
bad programers using it who could give it a bad name, but I'd guess
that beginner programmers would be using something else. Lisp is sort
of a self-selected group of people who tend to have a pretty thorough
background in programming. So as a whole, I'd expect a higher quality
program on average to be written in lisp than in, say, C#.
Quote
publish them to the world while no one takes the time to comb thru
and extract out the best ideas to make a smaller number of richer
packages.
This does happen. New packages are added to the standard
distribution when it makes sense.
Quote
I don't see thousands of choices as an automatic win. The problem
becomes:

1) Finding one that does what you want.
Just asking in the emacs newsgroup can usually get you an answer of
the pros/cons of current versions, if this problem were to actually
arise.
Quote
2) Having it not be buggy.
True, but that's not unique to emacs. Then again, you have the source
and can always improve it if it doesn't meet your needs. Fortunately,
this is not a usual problem, and most programs tend to work fairly
well, especially if you use the more popular ones that have had the
benefits of "many eyes."
Quote
3) Having it be documented and with a nice UI or other integration.
Good documentation is a problem for all software.
Quote
There are tons of free things out there that rarely get used by
anyone. There are other things, free or commercial, that get used by a
lot of people.
Yes, but....?
Quote
Another point: If lots of extension packages are needed then to my
mind the question comes up: Why? Sometimes extensions are a sign of
core product deficiencies.
That's like saying the VCL is deficient because there are so many 3rd
party components available. It's fully programmable, and people
program it. Sometimes for custom needs, sometimes for fun.
Quote
Look, I don't doubt that some of those thousands of emacs packages
are impressive works in their own right. I also don't doubt that
emacs has many impressive features. But I also have heard too many
smart people say they have used emacs and who think one has to spend
a lot of time learning it before the time invested even begins to
start paying off.
Though there is an enormous amount of stuff you *can* learn about
emacs, but fortunately it has a small set of mandatory things you need
to know to use it. Many features go by unused entirely, and you
eventually settle to your own set of features you use. Every now and
then you learn something new and go, "Wow! I can't believe how I
lived without this!"
--
Chris (TeamB);
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Oscar Fuentes wrote:
Quote
Please note that we are not trying to evangelize, just reacting to
comments that belittles those programmers who work the *nix way, with
a good text editor, makefiles and so on. Some people tends to think
that those who don't use cool, colorful IDEs, are dinosaurs that
lives on the past. The reality is quite the contrary: we use those
tools because they are more productive.
Oscar,
I read the whole exchange wondering whether Emacs is worth the time to try to install
on my main Windows development machine and to learn it. I don't use an IDE editor and
instead use a dedicated editor that is pretty darned good. So I can't tell whether
Emacs would end up being worth the learning curve or just how big that learning curve
might be.
I know that VSE has a learning curve. It is not trivial to get really good at it and
I've been using it for over 10 years. People I've met on Usenet groups who have used
VSE and Emacs (this was maybe 3 or 4 years ago) say the Emacs learning curve is much
steeper.
Again, I'd like to find someone who has used Emacs and VSE lately who can offer a
real comparison and who is an aggressive user of advanced features.
How big is the Emacs executable image typically? I've got two VSE instances running
at the moment and one is 14 Megs while the other with many more source files indexed
and loaded is 31 Megs.
Also, VSE is good at doing syntax completion when the text is still incorrect with
compiler errors (which BCB is terrible about). How does Emacs do with code completion
with code that is not yet correct?
Also, if you turn on color coding can Emacs dynamically update the colors as you are
typing and complete whole tokens that suddenly go from being a word fragment to, say,
a keyword?
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Mike Margerum wrote:
Quote
>
>I'm not sure, but the fact that something is written on a standard
>doesn't preclude you being sued for following the standard. The
>simplest case is where a feature needs certain algorithm to be
>efficiently implemented. If the algorithm is patented, you are in
>trouble.
>
If its closed source then how would you know the algorithm?
You might decide to implement it the same way because it is the obvious way to solve
that problem.
Lots of obvious solutions get patented. The USPTO simply doesn't have the talent
needed to judge obviousness.
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Randall Parker < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >writes:
Quote
I read the whole exchange wondering whether Emacs is worth the time to
try to install on my main Windows development machine and to learn
it. I don't use an IDE editor and instead use a dedicated editor that
is pretty darned good. So I can't tell whether Emacs would end up
being worth the learning curve or just how big that learning curve
might be.
Emacs is mainly a programmer's text editor. As others told you, Emacs
requires some time and effort before it begins to pay off. From what I
see on the VSE homepage, it looks quite serious. Sincerely, in your
case I wouldn't care too much about Emacs, except if VSE has something
that you profoundly dislike or miss.
One of the reasons I like Emacs so much is because its building
philosophy: provide rich functionality but allow the user to replace
it with his own. I try to build software that is as customizable and
open as Emacs is, and using this editor is a source of constant
inspiration. Of course, this is related to my personal interests and
you may have a different opinion.
[snip]
Quote
Again, I'd like to find someone who has used Emacs and VSE lately who
can offer a real comparison and who is an aggressive user of advanced
features.
Sorry, I'm not a VSE user.
Quote
How big is the Emacs executable image typically? I've got two VSE
instances running at the moment and one is 14 Megs while the other
with many more source files indexed and loaded is 31 Megs.
With lots of buffers and complex packages working, Emacs is about 30
MB on Win2kSP4 as reported by the task manager.
Quote
Also, VSE is good at doing syntax completion when the text is still
incorrect with compiler errors (which BCB is terrible about). How does
Emacs do with code completion with code that is not yet correct?
Emacs has several ways for doing text or code completion. I find the
simple way of *text* completion good enough for me. You type the
beginning of the word, press a key (I've binded the command to an
unused key on my Spanish keyword) and the first completion appears. If
it is not the one you want, you press the key again and the second
completion appears, and so on. Candidates for completion are searched
on several places. If you want a menu that offers the members of a
class as completion candidates, I think the Semantic package (planned
to be added into the Emacs distribution) does this. See
cedet.sourceforge.net/intellisense.shtml
Quote
Also, if you turn on color coding can Emacs dynamically update the
colors as you are typing and complete whole tokens that suddenly go
from being a word fragment to, say, a keyword?
I'm not sure I understand your question correctly, but Emacs
colorizes text as you type it. So if you write 'whil' it will look as
a variable name, but as soon as you write the final 'e' it will look
as a keyword.
--
Oscar
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) wrote:
Quote

For example, I wrote a nice little emacs extension that allows me to
jump between source files and headers, and other related files, even
if they're in different directories. For example:

$(PROJECT_ROOT)/include/foo.hpp
$(PROJECT_ROOT)/include/foo.ipp

$(PROJECT_ROOT)/src/foo.cpp

With a single keypress I can jump back and forth between the header,
the inline code, and .pp source file of foo.
The Slick Edit people gave me a macro for doing this and I improved on it by making
it more flexible as to which suffixes it cycles between. This really should be built
into any editor that does C++.
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Chris,
If you switch away from Emacs and then back into it and if a file has been changed
external to Emacs then does Emacs notify you and ask if you want to reload that file?
Also, you talked about text completion as advantageous over code completion. I can
see reasons why that would be the case. But does Emacs also support code completion?
Also, do files get individually assigned to an Emacs project or do directories get
assigned with all the files in them?
Also, I saw you talk about the ring delete buffer list. Is there also a paste buffer
list? VSE has a paste buffer list and it shows you the first line of the last n paste
buffers in a pop-up list.
Also, does Emacs offer a list viewable on the side of all currently loaded source files?
Also, can you do search scoped to:
file
directory
directory list
list of files selected from current project list of files
project
workspace (or something that allows subprojects and projects)
Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) wrote:
Quote
Though I doubt anyone disputes that Emacs is a more powerful editor
than BCB has, one can certainly call BCB an editor--even if it doesn't
do everything emacs does. Similarly, I can call emacs an IDE even if it
doesn't have all the things BCB does.
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Mike Margerum wrote:
Quote
what does "Stackless" version of python mean? it doesnt use any
stack?
www.onlamp.com/pub/a/python/2000/10/04/stackless-intro.html
But don't ask me - I don't even know Python :)
--
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
[Bicester, Uk]
info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Mike Margerum wrote:
Quote
I wonder what they use to access SQL server because I failed with the
COM based ADO stuff as soon as I tried to access a blob
You could try asking - the devs are quite open.
Somewhere else there was a specific Dev Blog on their hardware and
software setup but I couldn't find it - I'll look again though. FWIW
tomorrow they are rolling out a big content update (basically the next
version) and that is going to be fun for their database management team
I think.
--
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
[Bicester, Uk]
info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Andrue Cope [TeamB] wrote:
Quote
Somewhere else there was a specific Dev Blog on their hardware and
software setup but I couldn't find it - I'll look again though.
Hmmm. Nothing much on the software side but here's the hardware
description earlier in the year during upgrades:
//////////
Tranquility, now been to hell, see it freeze over a couple of times and
is now back, currently consists of about 40 machines in addition to
support servers.
The recent upgrade involved expansions to our FAStT600
<www.storage.ibm.com/disk/fastt/fast600/index.html>with an
EXP700 and adding 14 disks. All the disks are 36GB 15KRPM Fibre Channel
disks (and not all arrived). This increased the throughput or I/O of
the SQL cluster considerably.
We will also upgrade the servers in our SQL cluster with 2 IBM xSeries
445 <www.pc.ibm.com/us/eserver/xseries/x445.html>bricks. Each
configured with 4 Intel Xeon 3.0GHz processors and 16GB of RAM.
The cluster is divided into proxy servers and SOL servers. The 12 proxy
servers handle packet sanity, data compression and manage sessions on
behalf of the clients while the 28 SOL servers handle all simulation
needs of the world. Our automatic load management assigns services to
SOL servers on demand, be they solarsystem simulation, chat channels,
market regions, agents etc.
In the second phase we will add a bunch of SOL application servers.
They are IBM xSeries 335
<www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalo
gId=-840&storeId=1&langId=-1&dualCurrId=73&categoryId=2574822>all
configured with 2 Intel Xeon 2.8GHz processors and 2.5GB of RAM.
/////////////
'SOL'? I think that should be SQL although I don't know why it was
misspelled.
4 Xeons, 16GB of RAM. Yummy :)
I think the current for most number of players online was just over
11k. I was probably one of them :D
--
Andrue Cope [TeamB]
[Bicester, Uk]
info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
[...]

>Working with many developers and having seen
>and had to adher to many coding styles, I
>tend to be less obsessed about my own. <g>

It's pretty easy to share. We give our new recruits the standard
emacs indentation setup, and they just use it. Really helps get good
looking code to our standards. PS, here it is:

[...]

Pretty easy to customize as well.
But that misses the point. We have to work
with code that's almost ten years old --
that's longer ago than most developers here
are in the company. Of course, the coding
style has changed a few times since then.
Also, there is 3rd-party code, 3rd-party
API headers, our API headers (which use a
style which stayed more or less the same
over the last ten years)... If you have to
work with this daily, you tend to not to
regard indentation style as an important
issue anymore -- IME anyway.
Quote
>>I use it for
>>dozens of programming languages and everything works the same
>>way.
>
>I don't use as many languages. Maybe that's
>one reason why I get along so well without
>Emacs?

Not just programming languages, but email, news, IRC, makefiles,
changelogs, diffs and merging ... it's very nice to do all your work
with the same exact environment.
I am comfortable enough if I do this in
the same OS. :o>(Oh, and as for doing
it al in the same environment: Wasn't it
/me/ who argued for an IDE instead of an
editor? <g>)
Quote
[...]

>Great, if you can do it so fast. But why
>doesn't it come with syntax highlighting
>out of the boy???

Stuff that comes out of the boy is probably the wrong color for syntax
highlighting. <g>
LOL! (On a German keyboard, Y and X are
right beside each other.)
Quote
But Emacs certainly does have it "out of the box" with most
distributions.
I see.
Schobi
--
XXXX@XXXXX.COM is never read
I'm Schobi at suespammers dot org
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely
to be prefered to those thinking they've found it."
Terry Pratchett
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
"Hendrik Schober" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >writes:

>From what I hear from you and Oscar, it
>can do everything and then some more,
>but doesn't do it out of the box.

Of course it can't do everything out of the box. It is written in a
finite number of lines of code. It's not hard to envision features
that it doesn't have.

But it is hard to envision features that it cannot have.
I keep repeating myself: That's the
same with other editors/IDEs.
Schobi
--
XXXX@XXXXX.COM is never read
I'm Schobi at suespammers dot org
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely
to be prefered to those thinking they've found it."
Terry Pratchett
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Oscar Fuentes < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
[...]

Please note that we are not trying to evangelize, just reacting to
comments that belittles those programmers who work the *nix way, with
a good text editor, makefiles and so on. Some people tends to think
that those who don't use cool, colorful IDEs, are dinosaurs that
lives on the past. [...]
Oscar, I am sure you really think you do
that. However, in fact it's the other way
aropund! <g,d&r>
Schobi
--
XXXX@XXXXX.COM is never read
I'm Schobi at suespammers dot org
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely
to be prefered to those thinking they've found it."
Terry Pratchett
 

Re:Re: Install Kylix3 on Mandrake 10.1, Suse 9.1

Randall Parker < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
Schobi,

I sometimes go weeks and even months without compiling. I know people who can't
believe I do not do more incremental testing but I tell them it is a waste of time. I
can test more at once and spend less time compiling and linking if I write bigger
chunks of code.

Why do you spend several hours compiling and linking?
That's whenever I make small modifications
to a big cod ebase that need to get tested
on the next day in order to get released
the day after. Most of my stuff I have in
a small(er) test project and usually I make
my modifications there, before I merge them
into the main project. However, sometimes
there is no way around fiddling with the
big project, and when I'm unfortunate enough
to hit the wrong header, that means I have
to wait 20mins for compiling and linking. If
then this isn't good enough, I have to do
this again.
If I do many small fixes, I like to test
them individually. I know it seems to first
code them all and then test them all would
save me time. However, I have found that, as
soon as something unexpected goes wrong
during testing, I spend ten times as long as
I saved for finding out which of those many
modifications caused the bug. It might save
me time in some particular cases, but in the
long run it's better to test individually.
Quote
[...]
Schobi
--
XXXX@XXXXX.COM is never read
I'm Schobi at suespammers dot org
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely
to be prefered to those thinking they've found it."
Terry Pratchett