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Will Java die in the near future?


2003-07-23 08:18:49 AM
jbuilder14
Microsoft is managing and putting tons of money in convincing people to
convert Java programs to C#.
What is the real trend...? , is it true, as people at Microsoft says, that
Java's days are numbered? What is doing Sun in order to fight against this
(macabre) plan of Microsoft? Personally I hate a future where Microsoft'
logo will even be in the box of my favorite cereal. Why Sun is not making
bigger efforts to popularize others OSs that could give consumers other
alternatives than the (omnipresent) windows?
 
 

Re:Will Java die in the near future?

On 7/22/2003 at 8:18:49 PM, Adone Borione wrote:
This would be more appropriate for the non-technical newsgroup.
Follow-ups set.
Quote
Subject: Will Java die in the near future?

Microsoft is managing and putting tons of money in convincing
people to convert Java programs to C#.
I do not know of anyone who is converting Java programs to C#.
--
Regards,
John McGrath [TeamB]
 

Re:Will Java die in the near future?

In article <3f1dd435$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM >, Adone Borione says...
Hi,
Quote
Microsoft is managing and putting tons of money in convincing people to
convert Java programs to C#.
I know of zero people moving their code from Java to C#, but I do know
people that are moving from VB, C++, Delphi etc. to C#.
Phil
 

{smallsort}

Re:Will Java die in the near future?

"Phil Shrimpton" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
I know of zero people moving their code from Java to C#, but I do know
people that are moving from VB, C++, Delphi etc. to C#.
*and* moving to Java from those languages well...
 

Re:Will Java die in the near future?

John McGrath [TeamB] wrote:
Quote
On 7/22/2003 at 8:18:49 PM, Adone Borione wrote:

This would be more appropriate for the non-technical newsgroup.
Follow-ups set.

>Subject: Will Java die in the near future?
>
>Microsoft is managing and putting tons of money in convincing
>people to convert Java programs to C#.

I do not know of anyone who is converting Java programs to C#.

Second that!! Why would anyone move from Java to C# or NET, would be my
question?
NET offers no XPlatform. Some may refer to Mono, but Mono is not complete
and we have no garantee that it will be compatible with MS' version if or
when it is complete. We also do not know if MS will allow it to be
compatible.
NET has no n tier model. If you want n tier, you are going to have to resort
to Web Services or COM+/DCOM.
NET can only run on a very limited number of devices. If it is not WinTel or
WinCE compatible, forget it.
NET is truly an option ONLY for those who use MS only operating systems
exclusively. Since that marketshare is stagnant at best (Server side losing
market share rapidly), there is no way I can see anyone moving from Java to
NET. Enterprise IT shops use a host of different servers and OS for their
daily operations. NEt is not an option here, Java is.
Did I mention NET is no where near as mature as Java <G>, and is truly only
supported by MS?
 

Re:Will Java die in the near future?

Quote
NET offers no XPlatform. Some may refer to Mono, but Mono is not complete
and we have no garantee that it will be compatible with MS' version if or
when it is complete. We also do not know if MS will allow it to be
compatible.
I fully agree! Mono will get as far as Microsoft will let it.
 

Re:Will Java die in the near future?

That's easy. They're converting because some schmuck in upper
management went to an MS sponsored event and got all happy and came back
and said "we're moving". :)
-Rich
pnichols wrote:
Quote
Second that!! Why would anyone move from Java to C# or NET, would be my
question?

NET offers no XPlatform. Some may refer to Mono, but Mono is not complete
and we have no garantee that it will be compatible with MS' version if or
when it is complete. We also do not know if MS will allow it to be
compatible.

NET has no n tier model. If you want n tier, you are going to have to resort
to Web Services or COM+/DCOM.

NET can only run on a very limited number of devices. If it is not WinTel or
WinCE compatible, forget it.

NET is truly an option ONLY for those who use MS only operating systems
exclusively. Since that marketshare is stagnant at best (Server side losing
market share rapidly), there is no way I can see anyone moving from Java to
NET. Enterprise IT shops use a host of different servers and OS for their
daily operations. NEt is not an option here, Java is.

Did I mention NET is no where near as mature as Java <G>, and is truly only
supported by MS?




 

Re:Will Java die in the near future?

Quote
Microsoft is managing and putting tons of money in convincing people to
convert Java programs to C#.
Just as Sun is putting huge amounts of money into convincing people to move
ASP and COM+ applications to Java.
It's called marketing...
Quote
What is the real trend...? , is it true, as people at Microsoft says, that
Java's days are numbered? What is doing Sun in order to fight against this
All programming languages will die over time, even CoBOL.
Quote
(macabre) plan of Microsoft? Personally I hate a future where Microsoft'
No macabre plan, they just want to make money which is what every company
wants...
Heard yesterday that Microsoft is planning to hire another 5000 staff for
their research and product development divisions, Sun is running a big loss
and may lay off a lot of people.
Looks like making money is good for a company?
Quote
logo will even be in the box of my favorite cereal. Why Sun is not making
hmm, hard to see why you'd see that except when the cereal company starts
taking advertising on the box and Microsoft buys the space.
Quote
bigger efforts to popularize others OSs that could give consumers other
alternatives than the (omnipresent) windows?

They tried and failed. Fact is that Windows is simply the most mature
clientside platform available at this time.
It gained supremacy based on price/quality equation as well as good
marketing and ease of use.
If you check the alternatives you see OS/2 (old, doesn't work well with
modern hardware, no longer maintained, even the manufacturer abandoned
it...), Solaris (hard to use, poor hardware support), and Linux (hard to use
if you're not a techie, relatively unstable unless you are a techie and can
tweak it a lot).
None of these platforms can also run most if not all software available for
Windows (which became available for Windows because it was the most
lucrative market which in turn helped increase the market share of Windows).
OS/2 can run most 16 bit DOS and Windows applications, showing its age,
Solaris might be able to read some Windows/DOS document formats, Linux can
emulate a partial Windows environment but it's slow and unstable, it can
also read some DOS/Windows document formats.
You want a competitor to Windows that is successful against Windows you need
these things:
- equal or better stability and performance yet lower price
- can run all Windows applications (or if it can't run something at least
read and write its output and offer a viable alternative that's as complete
and easy to use) as reliably and with similar performance to Windows. This
includes not just business applications but games as well.
- as easy to use or more so for the non-technical user (preferably offering
a desktop environment that's similar enough that they can get started
without needing retraining).
OS/2 offered (at the time) the 2nd and 3rd.
Linux offers the first and bits of the 2nd and 3rd but not enough for the
average or below-average user.
Solaris offers none (except maybe parts of the first).
MacOS I leave out because it requires different hardware, and both hardware
and software are far more expensive making it no more than a niche market.
There are likely more criteria...
 

Re:Will Java die in the near future?

Rich Wilkman wrote:
Quote
That's easy. They're converting because some schmuck in upper
management went to an MS sponsored event and got all happy and came back
and said "we're moving". :)

-Rich

Sad, but true.
I had an interview last week with a company that wanted to do NET, but many
of the services they needed from Oracle were only accessible through Java.
So I asked them the normal and natural question, "If Oracle and Oracle
services are so crtitical to your application, why don't you do it all in
Java, instead of having to map Java to the NET classes through Web Services
or some other type of middleware? Is there something NET provides that Java
doesn't?"
The answer was they were a Microsoft shop and they are committed to MS
solutions. Therefore Java will be used only when they have to use it. At
all other times, MS and NET only.
I then asked, "but wouldn't adding more layers to the application, lead to
more chances of failure and naturally complicate the layers and tiers in
the development process?" I never got a good answer after this one.
Needless to say, I did not get the job, nor did I want it. <G>>
 

Re:Will Java die in the near future?

The advantage for them is that they don't need in-house expertise in many
different tools but can specialize in a single tool/language.
Whether that is a valid argument or not is something I'm not sure about.
I can certainly see some advantages in becoming really good at a single
tool/language, be it .NET or Java. It would take longer to become as good at
both (more stuff to learn). It also would cost the company less if they only
need to buy one set of tools and pay for training in a single set of
tool/language.
On the other hand, my knowledge of C++ and Java and Delphi certainly helps me
design better solutions in general. I've worked with people whose only
expertise was VB and their work in VB.NET/ASP.NET is not very mature
(particularly the way they design their code -- or rather, lack of design)..
They simply had never done oop or done software design before so they just put
all of their functions together, make inappropriate use of inheritence, don't
use many features of the language, don't use patterns, etc. Their business
design is quite good, though (they really know the business side of things),
but their code could be a lot better (imo).
At the end of the day, it is the people who pay the money that feel they need
to make the decisions, even though they typically are the ones that know the
least about all the factors that should go into making these decisions. The
world according to Dilbert :-)
-D
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:16:40 -0400, pnichols <paul@ comp.net>wrote:
Quote
The answer was they were a Microsoft shop and they are committed to MS
solutions. Therefore Java will be used only when they have to use it. At
all other times, MS and NET only.

I then asked, "but wouldn't adding more layers to the application, lead to
more chances of failure and naturally complicate the layers and tiers in
the development process?" I never got a good answer after this one.

Needless to say, I did not get the job, nor did I want it. <G>>
 

Re:Will Java die in the near future?

Denis Sarrazin wrote:
Quote
I can certainly see some advantages in becoming really good at a single
tool/language, be it .NET or Java. It would take longer to become as good
at both (more stuff to learn). It also would cost the company less if they
only need to buy one set of tools and pay for training in a single set of
tool/language.

Agreed, hence the reason for my question <G>.
Quote
On the other hand, my knowledge of C++ and Java and Delphi certainly helps
me design better solutions in general. I've worked with people whose only
expertise was VB and their work in VB.NET/ASP.NET is not very mature
(particularly the way they design their code -- or rather, lack of
design).. They simply had never done oop or done software design before so
they just put all of their functions together, make inappropriate use of
inheritence, don't use many features of the language, don't use patterns,
etc. Their business design is quite good, though (they really know the
business side of things), but their code could be a lot better (imo).

True, we should all be versed in more than one language. There are certain
things that other languages(s) are better suited for. If they could have
provided a BUSINESS REASON or a use case where NET was needed, then they
would have answered the question. Replying that they are a Microsoft shop
and used MS solutions, did not serve in providing an adequate answer. They
also wanted to use Java for Oracle integration. That necessarily
complicates the process, so I would think they could have provided
rationale on why this was a good thing or driven by requirements.
Quote
At the end of the day, it is the people who pay the money that feel they
need to make the decisions, even though they typically are the ones that
know the least about all the factors that should go into making these
decisions. The world according to Dilbert :-)

Absolutely true.