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Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions


2003-11-16 11:38:25 PM
jbuilder16
This is my BorCon interview which covers Windows vs Java, JBuilder vs
Eclipse, Delphi.Net, MDA, Kylix and Linux.
www.itwriting.com/borlandtop.php
Hope you find something of interest here.
Tim
 
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

Atmapuri wrote:
Quote

Its interesting to admit that
"... an erosion of the Delphi customer base...."
I think you misunderstood. English is not my first language, and I
will be happy for correction.
But if there is erosion of Delphi customer base, then Blake would say:
'The fact that Java is now a significant piece of our business has
nothing to do with *the* erosion of the Delphi customer base.'
What I think what Blake said was, that JBuilder does not eat Delphi
customers base.
Quote
And admitting that Kylix was a mistake.
Where was that? I looked through the article and could not find the
reference.
Quote
1.) No real update to Delphi compiler for 4 years and no language
development.
Indeed, I myself want to see language enchament, but only two of those.
Related to .Net, I think that it is wise to wait for .Net to make
language enchancement, rather than make the enhancement, and break it
later on because of compatibility issue with .Net.
Quote
But in the eyes of a general user, they are the ones that add "spark"
to the language. Make the language current and valued.
No sarcasm, but what kind of enhanced that you would see in the
language? The language is very mature, sure it can use some
enhancement.
Quote
4 years were lost on: Kylix, Web services, MDA, C# Builder.

Of course those things are not without value, but it was
a bad decision to move compiler developers to tools
development.
IMO, compiler development is driven by the tool, what are new language
features good for if there is no business value? Tools drives business
value.
I have to disagree with this one.
Quote
- We are going to drop VCL development, but not
the development for W32 based Delphi development.
The article did not say anything about dropping support for VCL. Where
is it?
Quote
How can you support ECO without changes
to VCL? What point does the Kylix have without
VCL? (or CLX).
ECO is for C#Builder, not for Delphi.
Wien.
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

"Atmapuri" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Of course in reality these things are not those that make the difference
if you can solve your problem or not. Tools are those that
make that difference. Borland did good with
database support. Web services supports etc...
Great post!
Hm, for database purposes yes, for real-time stuff no, you pick the fastest
compiler..
I read on an Indie games forum that 300 Indies there in a survey said they used
Delphi to make their games. If they all bought Delphi, that's how much, 300,000
USD?
Even if 75% used an illegal copy or would never buy Delphi again, there are much
more than 300 independent developrs who use Delphi (still..)
We're talking Borland missing out on at least a million bucks because some
manager there has his priorities wrong.
A million bucks should make Delphi a cutting-edge compiler. Hell, for that price
I can sub-contract that to the world's 10 brightest coders!
The reality since D5, I'm afraid, is that Borland has completely written off
Delphi, at least for the non-database market.
We can only hope & pray that Borland will put Delphi + compiler in the public
domain, like Turbopower did with their code. Turbopower going bankrupt actually
is a major reason why Delphi becomes more and more interesting for Win32
development; There is now an enormous quantity of all kinds of components/libs
for free! It's like my Delphi became worth 2,000 USD more overnight.
If Borland would make Delphi's compiler OS (not the VCL) then Delphi could stay
cutting edge at no cost to Borland, and as a consequence, Delphi would continue
to sell forever, because Pascal is not going away so easily and native exe's
neither.
 

{smallsort}

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

Hi Frank,
Quote
Turbopower going bankrupt
They didn't go bankrupt, please check your facts before stating FUD.
Groetjes,
Bob Swart (aka Dr.Bob - www.DrBob42.com)
--
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42) Borland Technology Partner
webmaster UK Borland User Group (BUG) & DotNet Developers Group (DDG)
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

"Bob Swart" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
They didn't go bankrupt, please check your facts before stating FUD.
They did, but due to a trick they kept their name and the politically correct
term is different than "bankrupt", but the reality is that they were unable to
survive with their products and have given them away.
Are you suggesting that the TurboPower products were making them enoug hmoney to
stay alive? Then why did they gave them away/stopped maintaining them?
When I am 3 months away from bankrupcy and I sell my company, employees &
company name/goodwill, that's "bankrupt" to me.
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

Hi,
"Atmapuri" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Hi!

Its interesting to admit that
"... an erosion of the Delphi customer base...."

They don't admit an erosion, in fact they deny it!
It says :
"The fact that Java is now a significant piece of our business has nothing
to do with an erosion of the Delphi customer base. That's been very strong.
What it is, is growth. We've doubled our revenue in the last 5 years."
regards, Matt
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

"Robert Love" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote

I looked at the financial information. since they were a public
company and I did not see this. Maybe I read something wrong but I
think you don't have the complete facts.
Perhaps not, in that case I apologize.
But a "parent company" is the like an investor in other companies, they own
other companies.
So what happened is TurboPower went bankrupt and their parent company deemed
Turbopower's good name and employees too valuable to let go.
Turbopower itself got dissolved, *bankrupt in effect*. No phone nr, no products
any more.
Legally it is perhaps not bankrupcy, but realistically speaking what happened
was bankrupcy.
I like to call a spade a spade and abhor "political correctness". By employing
simple tricks, companies & governments can force the general public from knowing
the truth, as long as everybody plays the "politically correct" game. Fact is
that there was no future in Turbopower's products, that the company was broken
up, their products discontinued, their phone line cut and that the bits & pieces
were absorbed by share holders/owners/creditors/investors.
I call that "bankrupt", sorry, I'm not a lawyer or a spin doctor.
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

Erwien Saputra wrote:
Quote
>But in the eyes of a general user, they are the ones that add
>"spark" to the language. Make the language current and valued.

No sarcasm, but what kind of enhanced that you would see in the
language? The language is very mature, sure it can use some
enhancement.
Question wasn't to me obviously, but I'd like to see operator
overloading and inlining added back into the compiler. As I understand
it Delphi 8 for .NET has operator overloading so that's a step in the
right direction (it's just too bad this wasn't done years ago...), and
I think code inlining would be an obvious benefit to operator
overloading (especially if you're rolling your own Int128 or Int256
data type and want to make the basic operations fast).
Anyways, I'm glad efforts are being made at expanding and improving the
language, I just hope that inlining is given the attention it's
deserved (at least with the Win32 compiler-- I'm not sure how (or if)
code inlining would help with MSIL).
Will
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

Will DeWitt Jr. wrote:
Quote

Anyways, I'm glad efforts are being made at expanding and improving
the language, I just hope that inlining is given the attention it's
deserved (at least with the Win32 compiler-- I'm not sure how (or if)
code inlining would help with MSIL).

There is another thread talking about inline, so I won't comment with
that one. :)
As for operator overloading, I do not use that feature that much, and I
really don't like it, when I used C++ class that overload the operator,
and it just does not make sense. For the creator, it might make sense
back then when the creator wrote it, but not for other people, or for
this time.
Wien.
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

Frank Andreas de Groot wrote:
Quote
"Atmapuri" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...

>Of course in reality these things are not those that make the
>difference if you can solve your problem or not. Tools are those
>that make that difference. Borland did good with
>database support. Web services supports etc...

Great post!

Hm, for database purposes yes, for real-time stuff no, you pick the
fastest compiler..
I read on an Indie games forum that 300 Indies there in a survey said
they used Delphi to make their games. If they all bought Delphi,
that's how much, 300,000 USD?
Even if 75% used an illegal copy or would never buy Delphi again,
there are much more than 300 independent developrs who use Delphi
(still..) We're talking Borland missing out on at least a million
bucks because some manager there has his priorities wrong.

A million bucks should make Delphi a cutting-edge compiler. Hell, for
that price I can sub-contract that to the world's 10 brightest coders!

The reality since D5, I'm afraid, is that Borland has completely
written off Delphi, at least for the non-database market.
For Borland there is apparently no non-database market. All
the non-database objects and their implementation are rather
poor to non-existent. I'll just remind to graphics and math
and multithreading. I assume they made some market research
before deciding on this.
Quote

We can only hope & pray that Borland will put Delphi + compiler in
the public domain, like Turbopower did with their code. Turbopower
going bankrupt actually is a major reason why Delphi becomes more and
more interesting for Win32 development; There is now an enormous
quantity of all kinds of components/libs for free! It's like my
Delphi became worth 2,000 USD more overnight.
They weren't that expensive and they weren't that good that you
needed all of them,
Quote

If Borland would make Delphi's compiler OS (not the VCL) then Delphi
could stay cutting edge at no cost to Borland, and as a consequence,
Delphi would continue to sell forever, because Pascal is not going
away so easily and native exe's neither.
Are you sure you don't underestimate a major effort ?
I admittedly could do with a leaner OS than Win2k.
Rene
--
Ing.Buro R.Tschaggelar www.ibrtses.com
Your newsgroups @ www.talkto.net
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

Quote
I call that "bankrupt", sorry, I'm not a lawyer or a spin doctor.
Here is a scenario for you. You own a large company. The large company
owns several small companies. One small company makes 1 million per annum.
If you close that company and move the staff to another the same people
could make 2 million per annum. What would you do? Would you consider the
first company "bankrupt" if it was making 1 million per annum?
Numbers etc are all made up, it is a hyperthetical question :-)
--
Pete
=============
www.DroopyEyes.com - Delphi source code
Audio compression components, Fast Strings, DIB Controls
Read or write article on just about anything
www.HowToDoThings.com
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

"The ModelMaker products is a historical product"
I don't like this line much. MM is still the best code-gen tool around for
UML->Delphi classes. If I didn't know MM personally I would infer from this
that MM was something old that Borland dropped for something much newer and
better.
--
Pete
=============
www.DroopyEyes.com - Delphi source code
Audio compression components, Fast Strings, DIB Controls
Read or write article on just about anything
www.HowToDoThings.com
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

Erwien Saputra wrote:
Quote
As for operator overloading, I do not use that feature that much, and
I really don't like it, when I used C++ class that overload the
operator, and it just does not make sense. For the creator, it might
make sense back then when the creator wrote it, but not for other
people, or for this time.
Obviously if that was an issue not as many people would code in C++ or
C# (which also has operator overloading). =) I think the value
outweighs any perceived penalty, and once it's been around for awhile
and people have grown to use it more appropriately, I think you'll see
it used a lot less and only used where it should be or where it makes
the most sense.
But the overriding issue here is, how long can Delphi (or rather,
Pascal) as a language survive if it's never updated or extended with
new features? Operator overloading being a missing feature in Pascal
has been something that was driving me to C#. Now if inlines ever got
added, I'd probably never have a reason to move to any other language.
Will
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

Will DeWitt Jr. wrote:
Quote
Erwien Saputra wrote:

>>But in the eyes of a general user, they are the ones that add
>>"spark" to the language. Make the language current and valued.
>
>No sarcasm, but what kind of enhanced that you would see in the
>language? The language is very mature, sure it can use some
>enhancement.

Question wasn't to me obviously, but I'd like to see operator
overloading and inlining added back into the compiler. As I understand
it Delphi 8 for .NET has operator overloading so that's a step in the
right direction (it's just too bad this wasn't done years ago...), and
I think code inlining would be an obvious benefit to operator
overloading (especially if you're rolling your own Int128 or Int256
data type and want to make the basic operations fast).
Problem with operator overloading in Delphi si the problem of unnamed
(temporary) results
Simple example (my syntax):
function TMyType.operator+(A, B: TMyType): TMyType;
begin
Result := TMyType.Create(A.Value + B.Value);
end;
Now if the result is assigned to a variable, that is OK. But if it is
used in:
D := A + B + C;
this results in:
Temp := A + B;
D := Temp + C;
Temp is not named, and a garbage collected system will take care of it.
C++ has no GC, but it manages such results (if they are not heap based)
as well.
Danny Thorpe said somewhere that this will be restricted to records in
Win32 (records can have methods, now), and probably to records that don't
need finalization (i.e. records that don't contain strings, dynamic
arrays or interfaces).
But I guess types like Complex can be done in records as well. <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"Honolulu, it's got everything. Sand for the children, sun for the wife,
and sharks for the wife's mother." - Ken Dodd.
 

Re:Interview: Dale Fuller and Blake Stone on Borland directions

Frank Andreas de Groot wrote:
Quote
"Rene Tschaggelar" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message>

>Are you sure you don't underestimate a major effort ?
>I admittedly could do with a leaner OS than Win2k.

Are you sure you understood my posting?
OS means Open Source as well as Operating System.
Thanks for the correction,
nevertheless a major effort. How long would it take you
to become familiar with say 500k lines of code.
I've no idea how many lines there would be, but
not just a few.
I'd have a look at Delphi for embedded cpus though.
It cannot be that hard to rewrite the code gen for another
cpu, I guess.
Rene
--
Ing.Buro R.Tschaggelar www.ibrtses.com
Your newsgroups @ www.talkto.net