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Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe


2005-06-25 02:44:45 AM
kylix2
"Simon Kissel" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
>When I bought a copy of Kylix, I also got a copy of Red Hat 7.3 which
>was the current version of Red Hat Linux. Kylix was supposed to work
>on Red Hat 7.2 so it didn't seem like this would be a problem.
Well, Red Hat 7.2 was supported, and 7.3 was not. It's your fault if you
use an unsupported OS.
In fairness the MS world has conditioned us to expect a certain level of
compatibility. I haven't tried it recently but D1 used to work on 32-bit
Windows up to about NT4.
The big problem, as I see it, is the clash between open-source and
proprietary software. In order to be prolific, an application's source code
needs to be available for cmopiling on a variety of platform. This is just
not so easy with Kylix and I see this basic philosophical difference as the
key stumbling block at the root of most of the difficulty surrounding Kylix.
I also don't have a quick answer nor see any forthcoming in the future.
Quote
>Of
>course, I was wrong. Whenever I would try to open a file with Kylix,
>I would run the risk of it crashing. Strictly speaking this was a
>problem with the operating system, not Kylix, but Borland didn't do
>anything to make it easier for me to get around this. As a Linux
>novice, dealing with this by compiling a new version of the kernel was
>a tremendous headache. Didn't they think their users might want to
>open a file sometime?
Not only strictly speaking this is an OS fault. Sorry, but this is Linux.
There is nothing Borland could do about it.
Nothing? Borland could have assigned resources to fix the Linux issue and
contribute to the open-source community. I'm not saying it SHOULD have or
faulting it for not doing so, just pointing out that there is almost always
something that can be done.
It seems to me there have been times where Borland has come up with
work-arounds to deficiencies in Windows. Admittedly, I'm hard-pressed to
come up with any examples just now.
Quote
Linux distros are based on the assumption that all applications on the
system
are built from source with the gcc version shipped with the distro. It's
common that
binary applications get broken all the time, interfaces change etc.
The only alternative that Borland had regarding this simply was: Not
creating
Kylix.
Or releasing the source. Not likely nor viable, but an alternative that
leads back to my earlier point regarding a philosophical clash.
Quote
It's next to impossible to maintain such a big binary GUI application like
the Kylix IDE w/ de{*word*81} etc is.
IMHO Borland did the right thing. It's an OK decision to limit the IDE
itself
to a selection of certified distros (of course this would need to get
updated
from time to time with new product releases, which are missing), as long
as the applications created with the IDE run on current distros. I don't
see
any reason why you need a specific Linux distro for your development
platform.
Please explain. On the one hand you think it's OK to "limit the IDE itself
to a selection of certified distros" but you "don't see
any reason why you need a specific Linux distro for your development
platform". That sounds like a contradiction. I may be reading it wrong.
I suppose if the IDE provided code that could be compiled using GCC that
might have helped, if it were possible.
Simon
 
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Robby Tanner wrote:
Quote
Nothing? Borland could have assigned resources to fix the Linux issue
and
contribute to the open-source community. I'm not saying it SHOULD have
or
faulting it for not doing so, just pointing out that there is almost
always
something that can be done.
Do you remember how the Linux folks jumped all over Danny for suggesting
the loader might need some enhancement? Why would Borland get e{*word*277}d
about "fixing Linux" when the Linux folks are just going to disparage them
and not accept the contribution anyway?
-Brion
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Robby Tanner wrote:
Quote
"Simon Kissel" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
>Not only strictly speaking this is an OS fault. Sorry, but this is Linux.
>There is nothing Borland could do about it.

Nothing? Borland could have assigned resources to fix the Linux issue and
contribute to the open-source community. I'm not saying it SHOULD have or
faulting it for not doing so, just pointing out that there is almost always
something that can be done.

Strictly speaking, this problem surface with introduction of Kylix 2
and it can be reproduced with the XML Mapper shipped with Kylix 2
Enterprise, the XML Mapper crashes on Open File Dialog in some
circumstances, it was not fixed in Kylix 2 and variant of this bug
perpetuate to Kylix 3 and it is present to this day. It is completely
irrelevant that perhaps it is OS bug not Kylix bug. Not only
irrelevant but it is a meaningless excuse, not a badly needed fix.
Other Linux application do not have this problem they install and run
and can open a file without crashes. Proprietary or not, if it is
important to the vendor the software is updated to current standards
and bugs are fixed regularly. The Winelib in Kylix could be updated
years ago to correct this problem or an appropriate fix could be
submitted to Linux.
We know that software have bugs and always will have bugs. What
counts, is an appropriate attitude of the software maker, it is
essential to the overall success of the product. Frankly, the
presents of this bug and other bugs in Kylix is not the problem, the
main problem is that no action was taken by Borland to fix this and
many other bugs in Kylix in a timely manner. Kylix is a product
specifically aimed to Windows Delphi developers who want to experiment
with Linux and for Linux developers who want to use RAD approach in
development and port to Windows - intended for people who eat bugs for
breakfast, but what leaves bad taste in developer's mouths are not
bugs it is lack of Borland activity and commitment to help them.
juliusz
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Brion L. Webster wrote:
Quote
Do you remember how the Linux folks jumped all over Danny for suggesting
the loader might need some enhancement? Why would Borland get e{*word*277}d
about "fixing Linux" when the Linux folks are just going to disparage
them and not accept the contribution anyway?
Any changes to Linux must be review by people who have extensive
expertise on the subject. If the proposed changes make sense, if they
are actually improving something and if they do not brake too many
things they are eventually incorporated. There is a lot of people who
will want to put into Linux its own ideas and they think that what
they proposing is the best thing since sliced bread, but often these
bright ideas are rejected because it brakes too many things and fixes
to little. Linux is product of an effort of many people and the effort
cannot be jeopardized by accommodating one proprietary software vendor
and in the same time making other software (open source and
proprietary) incompatible. If anybody is familiar with Linux
development process and browses Linux mailing lists then knows that
the discussions about changes to Linux tree are often "very colorful"
but in the same time very competent. Apparently, this system works
because Linux is becoming better and better every single day.
Groklaw has very interesting article which describes how the process
works. "How The Kernel Development Process Works, by Greg Kroah-Hartman"
www.groklaw.net/article.php
juliusz
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Quote
I fail to see
why Borland should have to admit some kind of failure for you, when for
me all they need to do is continue to grow their product line like they
did from D1 forward.
I agree. Kylix is a very good product for what/how it can do.
But I think that Borland has been in a wait and see position for too
long (3 years!).
IMO, they can't afford an another 1 year without killing their product,
de facto. And I guess they can neither afford the amount of work needed
to develop a real new version, given the real market size and their
other projects.
So I would find it really sensible to contract some evolution, at least
to keep what they already have: loyal customers!
Didier
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Quote
Please explain. On the one hand you think it's OK to "limit the IDE itself
to a selection of certified distros" but you "don't see
any reason why you need a specific Linux distro for your development
platform". That sounds like a contradiction. I may be reading it wrong.

Meaning, as a developper you shouldn't care to be limited to a subset of
linux distros. This doesn't affect the software you produce.
Didier
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Didier Largange wrote:
Quote
I agree. Kylix is a very good product for what/how it can do.
But I think that Borland has been in a wait and see position for too
long (3 years!).
IMO, they can't afford an another 1 year without killing their product,
de facto. And I guess they can neither afford the amount of work needed
to develop a real new version, given the real market size and their
other projects.
So I would find it really sensible to contract some evolution, at least
to keep what they already have: loyal customers!
Well said - IMO, if they just took a small amount of cap and used it
simply to figure out a way to distribute the work among us loyalists
they could have their new product at a fraction of the cost and satisfy
the now & future user base as well... Gotta go now, the tooth fairy and
Easter Bunny just stopped by ;-)
-E
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Brion L. Webster wrote:
Quote

Do you remember how the Linux folks jumped all over Danny for suggesting
the loader might need some enhancement? Why would Borland get e{*word*277}d
about "fixing Linux" when the Linux folks are just going to disparage
them and not accept the contribution anyway?

I don't remember.. do you have a link?
Anyways, I am sure they had their reasons. Do you know what their point
of view was for not accepting the patches you are referring to? I trust
the Linux guys are professals as well and need to evaluate and make the
right decisions in which patch submissions to apply. This has nothing to
do with Borland it happens all the time. Could it be that the ego of
Barland was tarnished by that and this is now a reason for not
maintaining Kylix? Surely not. Is it even worth mentioning?
On the other hand, from what I know, they DID accept a lot of Borland
fixes to clib.
In my opinion it's more politics and lack of upper level management
commitment at Borland who should carry the blame on the failure of mass
Kylix adoption. These things have been discussed to death and boredom in
this newsgroup.
It is not fair to blame Borland's problems with Kylix on Linux!! The
Linux platform is mature enough to support closed source software. Even
now the Kylix IDE is still usable on the latest Linux distros. I use it
on SuSE 9.2 almost +- 7 days a week for example - it does crash, but I
have painfully learned to live with it. Apparently it also happens with
the latest D2K5 on the Windows platform too.
siegs
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

"Simon Kissel" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote

IMHO Borland did the right thing. It's an OK decision to limit the IDE itself
to a selection of certified distros (of course this would need to get updated
from time to time with new product releases, which are missing), as long
as the applications created with the IDE run on current distros. I don't see
any reason why you need a specific Linux distro for your development platform.

Running an old, unsupported, distribution like Red Hat 7.2 means that
you don't get security updates. Thus, you are running a system with
known security flaws. Perhaps you could spend the time needed to back
port all the security fixes but then you might not have much time to
do actual work.
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

"Ed Purkiss" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Wow - watched a lot of foolishness float through here, but can't let that
one go - just because it is buggy doesn't make Kylix {*word*99}ware - in fact,
it is an impressive product that, for my needs at least, is not only
adequate, it is far and away the best tool available.
Obviuosly you don't tried to work with databases.
Quote
I fail to see why Borland should have to admit some kind of failure for
you, when for me all they need to do is continue to grow their product
line like they did from D1 forward. Granted, it's a slim bet, but your
attitude certainly doesn't help.
I'm tried to help with posting numerious bugs to QC. They looked at them for
years and do nothing.
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Quote
When I bought a copy of Kylix, I also got a copy of Red Hat 7.3 which
was the current version of Red Hat Linux. Kylix was supposed to work
on Red Hat 7.2 so it didn't seem like this would be a problem.
"Simon Kissel" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >
Well, Red Hat 7.2 was supported, and 7.3 was not. It's your fault if you
use an unsupported OS.
Funny, but on unsupported MDK 9.1 Kylix worked better than on supported MDK
8.2.
"Simon Kissel" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >
Quote
Not only strictly speaking this is an OS fault. Sorry, but this is Linux.
There is nothing Borland could do about it.
They just tried to use windowslike methods of software writing, distribution
and deployment for Linux. Result is widely known.
"Simon Kissel" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >
Quote
Linux distros are based on the assumption that all applications on the
system
are built from source with the gcc version shipped with the distro. It's
common that
binary applications get broken all the time, interfaces change etc.
So it is pretty obvious. If they don't want to open sources, just update IDE
and compiler often, to reflect changes in modern distros.
Quote
The only alternative that Borland had regarding this simply was: Not
creating Kylix.
No. Being with Linux, use Linux ways to use and create software. However i
must thank Borland. Actually, by selling such unstable product, they
introduced me into Linux world and show how things should not be done in
Linux.
Quote
It's next to impossible to maintain such a big binary GUI application like
the Kylix IDE w/ de{*word*81} etc is.
IMHO Borland did the right thing. It's an OK decision to limit the IDE
itself
to a selection of certified distros (of course this would need to get
updated
from time to time with new product releases, which are missing), as long
as the applications created with the IDE run on current distros. I don't
see
any reason why you need a specific Linux distro for your development
platform.
My former company has far more complex than Kylix product (a distributed
database with tenths of GUI, network server, background job apps, and
hardware like high speed scanners) which work on most versions almost all
popular distros and constantly keep updating and improving. This product
developed and maintained by team of 15 developers. So i see it is
technically possible to keep up to date with latest Linux distros, when you
use Linux ways to develop.
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Quote

Obviuosly you don't tried to work with databases.
Interesting attempt at a point, but in fact, I run 15 eStores all built
on Kylix with MySQL serving an average of a little more than 500K
dynamic pages per day. It works just fine, thank you. In fact, it's the
most stable platform I've ever built on top of. With our first versions
(IIS / Delphi) we simply made a policy to reboot every night. Since
converting (Apache & Kylix), I only reboot when I need to upgrade. Two
of my rendering cluster machines have not been rebooted since early 2003.
Quote
I'm tried to help with posting numerious bugs to QC. They looked at them
for years and do nothing.
Although I agree with you about their tardiness, let's just imagine for
half a moment that Borland is actually in business to make money. I wish
(dearly) that they would get off their duffs and get to K4... but until
that day comes along, I have worked through the workarounds and remain
very satisfied with the tool.
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Quote
>Obviuosly you don't tried to work with databases.
"Ed Purkiss" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >
Interesting attempt at a point, but in fact, I run 15 eStores all built on
Kylix with MySQL serving an average of a little more than 500K dynamic
pages per day. It works just fine, thank you.
Well i'm worked with Oracle & Interbase. While work with Interbase is pretty
smooth (minor bugs), work with Oracle was total nightmare. Especially when
one go beyond simple "select", "insert", "delete". In contrary working with
pure C++/STL/BOOST/OCL/Qt was almost without a single problem.
Quote
In fact, it's the most stable platform I've ever built on top of. With our
first versions (IIS / Delphi) we simply made a policy to reboot every
night. Since converting (Apache & Kylix), I only reboot when I need to
upgrade. Two of my rendering cluster machines have not been rebooted since
early 2003.
Currently we runing ERP systems on the five tube rolling plants (Windows
2003 server, Oracle 9.2, Delphi clients). No reboots at all, except for
upgrades.
Quote
>I'm tried to help with posting numerious bugs to QC. They looked at them
>for years and do nothing.
Although I agree with you about their tardiness, let's just imagine for
half a moment that Borland is actually in business to make money.
Amount of maked money always depends from how customer was satisfied.
Quote
I wish (dearly) that they would get off their duffs and get to K4... but
until that day comes along, I have worked through the workarounds and
remain very satisfied with the tool.
I'm very dissatisfied. Currently Kylix used only in maintenance mode, for
existing programs. If they ship Kylix 4 we'll probably buy (of course if we
will be sure that K1,2,3 bugs was fixed) professional version. But this will
be last one.
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

siegfriedn wrote:
Quote
I don't remember.. do you have a link?
www.linux.cu/pipermail/linux-prog/2001-October/000378.html
--
Regards,
Andreas Hausladen
(www.kylix-patch.de.vu - unofficial Kylix 3 patches)
(andy.jgknet.de/blog)
 

Re:Re: Very Good news! Interview with Danny Thorpe

Andreas Hausladen wrote:
Quote
siegfriedn wrote:
[ Important section inserted ]
>Brion L. Webster wrote:
>
>>Do you remember how the Linux folks jumped all over Danny for suggesting
>>the loader might need some enhancement? Why would Borland get e{*word*277}d
>>about "fixing Linux" when the Linux folks are just going to disparage
>>them and not accept the contribution anyway?

>I don't remember.. do you have a link?

www.linux.cu/pipermail/linux-prog/2001-October/000378.html
Having read that it seems more like Danny wanted the loaded to work
like Windows rather than the way unix does it.