Board index » kylix » Re: Linux into the limelight

Re: Linux into the limelight


2004-02-03 05:50:07 AM
kylix1
JQP wrote:
Quote
"Michael Schnell" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>Other that distribution issues, there is no problem to run a closed
>source program on an open source OS. This is what Oracle usually does.

As far as Oracle is concerned, Linux is currently just a deployment
option. But this is a rather short sighted view IMO.

You could be right about this. As Open Source applications become better, as
well as Databases and Application Servers (even though the App Server
market is seeing a great boom for JBoss, which I recently read is being
used more than BEA and Web Sphere), this does pose a threat to all of these
industries. That is certainly a concern and fear concerning Open Source and
it is a legitimate concern for all programmers, not just Windows ones.
Quote
>If there is an open source DB that fits
>their need, they might drop Oracle completely.

True. See above.
Actually many companies are even now using both. MySQL and Postgres have
huge installed bases for even the largest IT companies. I taught at Sony
just a few months ago, and they were using mySQL extensively for their
E-Commerce stuff and non mission-critical database needs.
I often wonder why anyone, for instance, would use Interbase when Firebird
is free and just as robust, if not even more so.
Quote
Open Source is a potential competitor for any proprietary software
company, including Oracle. Their promotion and encouragment of Open Source
won't last
once *they* start to feel pressured by it. But apparently they don't
think that far ahead.

I think that they do think that far ahead, but your basis premise is
correct. Oracle and IBM are both counting on garnering Enterprise based
support and offering services for their revenue. Neither of them are much
concerned about the home user market, albeit no doubt IBM would like to
garner more Desktop PC sales.
Quote
How would Oracle react if IBM released DB2 as Open Source? Would Open
Source still be the way to go? If an Open Source operating system is
good, why not an Open Source database?

Who would not love that <G>? Oracle is the only one I can think of. Not
going to happen however, DB/2 is a good revenue source for IBM.
Quote
>.NET might help here. If it turns out that you can run Delphi .NET
>program well on MONO/Linux, this opens a way to supply distribution
>independent closed source software.

MS will not allow a true xplatform NET. Why would they desire this? The
entire purpose of NET was to stop XPlatform development, aka Java. If MS
were to allow NET to beocme truly xplatform, then the OS becomes irrelevant
for and including their own toolsets. I never see this happening unless MS
completely loses the OS war.
If you really desire seamless xplatform, then Java is the only way to go for
the forseeable future. The exception for the future, will not be found with
DOT.NET, but rather with something like C++ Builder X. That is ONLY if
Borland really gets it right. They are off to a good start, but we will
have to wait to see what the wxWindows RAD tool will become.
For those commited to Pascal (very small minority, BTW), it would be more
interesting, IMHO, to see Borland come out with a Delphi equivalent to C
Builder X. That way, you could potentially have it all (native 32/64 bit
real XPlatform development, plus NET).
 
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

And the users wait for us to deliver...and us wait develop..and the users...
But, reallity is, what is OUR problem with the OS? We get money from our
customer for the use of a particular OS (good dream: Give to the
developer of you App 1US of each week of use your pet OS)?... that is
very rare, i think.
My job is not sell a OS (that happend only, 1 year at time????? (and i
market it)) and sound extrange, but i can be more lucky selling a Linux
CD than a Windows CD rigth now..
The people give me money for deliver a solution. And for support them
(at least a lot of the customers i know accept pay for get support+the
aplication - the customer need torture some guy for use a computer, i
think-, no matter if a absolute free programs is available)
The customers of a VERTICLA APP learn this hard way. A lot of times we
fight against several cheap&free options, and we see that is unnecesary
figth, the people get tired of not have support and not have a guy that
made the tech work, so any lost customers simply return back in a couple
of months....
That is a reallity with dev tools, too. Maybe options exist for develop
in Linux, but the time& effort necesary to put it at level of , for
example, Delphi 3 standars...no, thats not give a single advantage to me
or to my customes, only meaning less possibility to deliver&sucess....
In that case, i prefer use a emulator o say to my customers not use
linux (except for be a terminal to a windows server). I think that the
tool is Delphi....if that is true in windows in Linux have more sense...
(expect because Kylyk look like a bad choice ;( )
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

"pnichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Why? Nearly all of the Linux Desktop apps are free? So, I beg to ask the
question, why pay for one when it is not necessary?
There lots of desktop business apps that are *not* available for Linux.
I've used this before but payroll is a good example.
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

JQP wrote:
Quote
I've used this before but payroll is a good example.
for available Linux software ?
Martin
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

JQP wrote:
Quote
"pnichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>Why? Nearly all of the Linux Desktop apps are free? So, I beg to ask the
>question, why pay for one when it is not necessary?

There lots of desktop business apps that are *not* available for Linux.
I've used this before but payroll is a good example.
There are payroll applications for Linux readily available, and I recently
provided you with a list. However, if there were no such programs
available, doesn't that serve to difuse your argument for developing a
Windows based one?
Since by your own estimation, there is a lack of software readily available
for the Linux Desktop, while in Windows, that marketable software already
exists, would not then, the logical conclusion of great potential apply?
In other words, doesn't it make more sense to pursue a new avenue and market
than enter an already innodated field where many compititors already exist?
You do realize that usually the first good solution to market will triumph
and have greater markshare than an after thought competing technology, do
you not?
Of couse, you should be fully aware, that the greater technology does not
always prevail. If yo believe otherwise,you would believe that Visual
Basic, since version 3, was a much better solution than Delphi 1 through 6
was.
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

"pnichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
There are payroll applications for Linux readily available, and I recently
provided you with a list.
You provided a short list of accounting related software, none of which
contained a competent payroll component.
Quote
However, if there were no such programs
available, doesn't that serve to difuse your argument for developing a
Windows based one?
What argument?
I'm not arguing for developing a Windows based payroll package. Merely
pointing out one area where many options exist for the Windows user but few
if any await the Linux convert.
Quote
Since by your own estimation, there is a lack of software readily
available
for the Linux Desktop, while in Windows, that marketable software already
exists, would not then, the logical conclusion of great potential apply?
Lack of product does not create potential. Demand for product does.
Without demand, all you have is the potential to create a product that few
people will buy; i.e. Kylix.
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

JQP wrote:
Quote
"pnichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>There are payroll applications for Linux readily available, and I
>recently provided you with a list.

You provided a short list of accounting related software, none of which
contained a competent payroll component.

>However, if there were no such programs
>available, doesn't that serve to difuse your argument for developing a
>Windows based one?

What argument?

The aurgument that you ant to create Desktop products foir Windows for
resale. Am I missing something here, or have you not all through the
responses been arguing for writing applications for users you can sale.
Sionce you focused on Desktop applications, my question is which MS
application do you wish to compete with?
Quote
I'm not arguing for developing a Windows based payroll package. Merely
pointing out one area where many options exist for the Windows user but
few if any await the Linux convert.

There are some, and if the demand was greater I am sure there would be more.
But as I and others have previously written several times, the Desktop Linux
market is not targeted yet for the casual Home User Market. Once again, is
geared toward the Enterprise and Business sector, where is growing
exponentially, as is discvovered each day in business and professional IT
magazines (it is not only garnering business and Enterprise growth, but
entire coiuntries, see blurbs on the country of Brazil, added today).
In these areas of serious HR and Accounting packages, you have Oracle, CA,
as well as SAP and IBM, which more than meet the demands for serious
Enterprise HR and Accounting needs.
Quote

Lack of product does not create potential. Demand for product does.
Agreed..
Quote
Without demand, all you have is the potential to create a product that few
people will buy; i.e. Kylix.
Kylix failed because once again, (1) How many professional Unix programs
choose Delphi or Pascal to program in. In fact how many do world wide?
(2) The product was priced way too high. I doubt many firms are going to pay
2000.00 for a buggy IDE verses 0.00 for KDevelop or a Java application IDE.
(3) The product was buggy. Look here for verification.
(4) Borland did not keep up with the Linux development community as a whole.
In short, Kylix was not a very well executed product to start with, was
priced way too high, and was not supported by Borland very well. It was a
great concept, just not executed properly. I believe, in the end, you may
find that Delphi.NET may unfortunately, suffer a similar fate as Kylix.
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

Quote
Open Source is a potential competitor for any proprietary software company,
including Oracle. Their promotion and encouragment of Open Source won't last
once *they* start to feel pressured by it. But apparently they don't think
that far ahead.
Open source will take over all standard software by the time. They see
that they can't fight it. So they swim along with it and benefit from it
as long as possible. Obviously in future software companies can only
earn money on support and on solutions sold to a single customer. No
volume fees any more.
Quote

How would Oracle react if IBM released DB2 as Open Source? Would Open
Source still be the way to go? If an Open Source operating system is good,
why not an Open Source database?

They cant help it. You need to try to swim on the ocean and not try to
pump it empty.
Quote
>.NET might help here. If it turns out that you can run Delphi .NET
>program well on MONO/Linux, this opens a way to supply distribution
>independent closed source software.

This is what I'm waiting to see<g>.
Exactly. IMHO what will happen is much up to Borland.
-Michael
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

Quote
If you really desire seamless xplatform, then Java is the only way to go for
the forseeable future. The exception for the future, will not be found with
DOT.NET, but rather with something like C++ Builder X.
What is the technical difference e between C++VBuilder X and Kylix/C ?
-Michael
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

Quote
Proprietary vendors will ALWAYS make money.
But decreasing. The Open Source community provides all standard
applications with increasing quality. So proprietary vendors only can
earn money with service and with custom designs, not with high volume
sales.
-Michael
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

In article <401fd013$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM >, Hilton Evans wrote:
Quote
I doubt Open Source has Intuit shaking in its boots.

Open Source is good for things that are a foundation that does not need
to change frequently, especially for deadlines such as tax law changes.
There are free shuttle buses in certain areas in downtown Chicago, but
Taxi cabs still do plenty of business between the same destinations.
If you need to be somewhere for an appointment, you'll pay for a cab,
even though you could wait for a free ride that might not get you there
on time. At other times, the free ride is 'good enough'.
People will pay for value. Market forces will squeeze spurious profits
out of overpriced products. Open Source is just one part of the
overall market forces.
Regards,
Steve Tyrakowski
www.sct-associates.com
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

"Michael Schnell" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Open source will take over all standard software by the time. They see
that they can't fight it.
I don't see that as being assured at all.
The success of Open Source depends upon charitable contributions from
programmers. Contributions (in terms of manhours) could easily start to dry
up for a variety of reasons.
Quote
Obviously in future software companies can only
earn money on support and on solutions sold to a single customer. No
volume fees any more.
So is this a "good thing" or a "bad thing" as far as the average consumer is
concerned? You could make a case that consumer's benefit from "volume
fees" as much as the software company.
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

Michael Schnell wrote:
Quote
>If you really desire seamless xplatform, then Java is the only way to go
>for the forseeable future. The exception for the future, will not be
>found with DOT.NET, but rather with something like C++ Builder X.

What is the technical difference e between C++VBuilder X and Kylix/C ?

-Michael
Th differences are:
Kylix: IDE uses Wine Libs.
CBUilderX: Uses Java, xplatform (Windows, Mac, Solaris, Linux supported).
CBuilder X IDE: Should be more stable. I say "SHOULD" because so far, no GUI
Builder, so not sure what the finished product should be.
Development:
Kylix: Proprietary non standard CLX.
BUilderX: standard, multi platform wxWindows.
Kylix; proprietary APIs and librairies that are Borland and Kylix specific.
BUilder X: standard ANSI C++ (as fas as possible). Support for Open Source
and proprieary libraries (GNU, FOSS, W3C, Apache, Intel, Symbian, MS,
Borland, etc).
Kylix: Borland only proprietary compiler.
BUilder X: Support for 7 different compilers including these today: MS,
Borland, GNU, Sun's Forte, Intel, Symbian. More could be pluuged in Iam
sure.
Kylix: Ability to write applications for X86 Linux only.
BUilderX : Ability to wrtte applications, currently for Windows, Linux (many
chips, including Mainframes with GNU), Solaris, Mac OS X, PDAs, Cell Phones
(Symbian based).
A tool like BuilderX gives developers a real choice (if successfully done
mind you), between Java or C++ for XPlatform. Yes, to some degree (non
GUI), you have that choice now, but not for any GUI work (unless you want
to be writing for a very long time with C++ <G>).
 

Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

"Michael Schnell" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
>Proprietary vendors will ALWAYS make money.

But decreasing. The Open Source community provides all standard
applications with increasing quality. So proprietary vendors only can
earn money with service and with custom designs, not with high volume
sales.
I doubt Open Source has Intuit shaking in its boots.
Also: Suggested reading: www.sys-con.com/story/
Open source is a good thing but it isn't the end all be all ideal
pontificated by the Church of Raymond.
--
Hilton Evans
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www.chempensoftware.com
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Re:Re: Linux into the limelight

"Steve Tyrakowski" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
In article <401fd013$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM >, Hilton Evans wrote:
>I doubt Open Source has Intuit shaking in its boots.
>
Open Source is good for things ...
<SNIP>
Agreed.
--
Hilton Evans
-----------------------------------------------
ChemPen Chemical Structure Software
www.chempensoftware.com
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