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Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??


2003-12-07 09:19:11 AM
kylix1
"pNichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
[..]
Quote
The fact it was from MS, made no difference. The problem I have with NET
is
why? If you need a managed code environment, why not support what everyone
else does?
Because people like to have choice and many don't like to use tools from
vendors they aren't familiar with?
Quote
MS developed NET because MS is very afraid of Java, period.
That is your explanation. I like Danny Thorpe's better.
[..]
Quote
That doesn't mean that MS has not added some good features, nor that NET
in
and of itself is bad. Since it is patterned after Java and MS' own Visual
J++, I would not expect it to be a "bad implementation" of a managed code
environment, but rather I still question why anyone would want to use an
MS
Java, when they are diliberately using a Java clone, that does not have
the
major benefit of Java, namely XPlatform and multi-vendor support.
I give you a few reasons, many of which make a lot of sense for people
coming from a Delphi and VS6
background: (1) the fact that allows to build better Windows applications
than Java, (2) the fact that is better integrated with MS tools such as SQL
Server or Biztalk for instance, (3) the fact it allows people to choose the
language they prefer and not being locked in a single language, (4) the fact
that having one major vendor behind it means quicker upgrades and
improvements versus something that has to go thought hundreds of heads and
standard committees, (5) the fact you can use Delphi on top of it, (6)
attributes which IMO are one of the slickest things ever made in
programming, (7) from a 3rd party vendor perspective, the ability to target
a lot of market-audiences in one shot (namely VB, Delphi and C# guys), (8)
the fact you can target 64 bit processors as well as other frameworks allow
you to do, (9) the abundance of *well-organized* documentation available on
the MSDN and the hundreds of sites related to .Net.
These are a few good reasons. This doesn't mean that everybody should or
will move to .Net. Many people are afraid of change, but that
(unfortunately) works the same way in regards of both .Net and Java . Many
others just don't have the need or resources to do it (time-wise. Spending
375$ to get 5 licenses of the MSDN universal is something most people can
afford so it's definitely not a money problem. Worst case scenario there are
free IDEs out there and the SDK is free too). Some others need to go on
Solaris so that cuts .Net out right away. But you can be sure a *lot* (which
doesn't mean all of course, but IMO most of them as you can gather by the
posts in Delphi newsgroups) of current Delphi and VS6 developers will either
just stay with the tools they have now or move to .Net rather than embrace
Java. I will start considering Java not just a high-end, Enterprise
phenomenon when I will see software like Winzip, ACDsee or those people use
at homes done in Java and not either C++, Delphi or VB. Until that day will
come people will have plenty of good reasons *not* to use Java but use
something else (whatever that is).
My 2c.
--
Best regards,
Alessandro Federici
RemObjects Software, Inc.
www.remobjects.com
 
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Mike Margerum" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
[..]
Quote
The real problem is m$ can sue anyone out of existence who ports it
but I think Sun can do the same thing. no?
I doubt any of the two would do that.
It would just be bad business and would immediately dictate the end of the
platform adoption.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Mike Margerum" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
What keeps sun from suing over clean room versions? Did they turn
everything over to a standards body? I understand you have to license
the trademarked java phrase from them but aside from that can they sue
you for IP violations?
They sued MS over it.
Quote
I understand the JCP process is democratic but sun still owns the
rights to everything unless i missed something. I hope im wrong.
Java belongs to Sun in much the same way as .NET belongs to MS. Sun can
change the rules at any time and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
They've done it in the past, they probably will again in the future if it
suits their needs.
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

Mike Margerum wrote:
Quote
>Java). What I saw in NET was a copy of Java, changing it just enough not
>to fall into lawsuit territory again. Anyone who has developed in Java,
>can pick NET up and be running in a week. Of course the COM and managed
>code areas will be different than the Java implementations, but the
>managed portions are practically the same.
>
.NET borrowed some ideas from java as java borrowed ideas from C++ and
smalltalk. .Net improved on java in many significant areas and is
hardly just a knock off. Attirbutes, Multi-Language VM, Shared VM,
Delegates. Ability to mix unmanaged and managed code even in same
unit. Compiled code.

Aside from the WinForms stuff, I fail to see why .net is any less
portable than java. Hence you have mono with GTK#, QT#, wx#
The real problem is m$ can sue anyone out of existence who ports it
but I think Sun can do the same thing. no?
Sun hasn't done the same thing. As I stated earler, the emphasis of NET and
the emphasis of Java are different. MS intended NET to be mono platform
from the beginning, Sun wanted Java xplatform from the very beginning. Sun
makes less $ off of Java than Borland, BEA, IBM, or Oracle. Unfortubnate
for Sun, to be sure, however, it shows the ubiquity and the direction that
was planned for Java. One common JVM and APIs, many platforms. Net was
intended to be many languages, one and only one OS and platform.
Nothing prevents NET from being Xplatform, but MS. Whether they let Mono
survive or not, is still up in the air. MS could, at any time, cry
"intellectual property rights were violated". They wouldn't do so now,
because it gives hope that NET will be xplatform, which is to MS' advantage
in their fight against Java. I seriously doubt they would win that battle
anytime soon, if ever.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"pNichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
[..]
Quote
Sun hasn't done the same thing. As I stated earler, the emphasis of NET
and
the emphasis of Java are different. MS intended NET to be mono platform
from the beginning, Sun wanted Java xplatform from the very beginning.
While I agree that the emphasis MS puts if for Windows development, the
Rotor example and the fact thay didn't go after Ximian when they started
Mono (or later) suggests they are not that against ports IMHO
All the evidence points to an MS that developes just for Windows but is
leaving space (to others) to extend their platform for free (to them) on
other systems. I wouldn't rush judgments on MS' intentions. Many things have
changed in MS during the past few years.
Quote
[..] Net was
intended to be many languages, one and only one OS and platform.
Correct since that need wasn't filled by anybody else and has always been a
high priority for MS (see DDE, OLE, COM). That by itself is IMO the most
compelling reason to move to the .Net platform but I am talking as a
component vendor here. The cross-language nature of .Net is has positive
side effects for regular Windows developers by giving them a wider choice of
tools compared to what they had before (i.e. Delphi people can now also
choose Infragistics, ComponentOne, etc etc and VB/C# guys can take advantage
of Delphi vendors).
Quote
Nothing prevents NET from being Xplatform, but MS. Whether they let Mono
survive or not, is still up in the air.
Right, "it's up in the air" ;-) Nothing concrete, except the signals we got
so far which points in a completely different direction.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"JQP" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
[..]
Quote
They've done it in the past, they probably will again in the future if it
suits their needs.
I don't know what they have done in the past but surely I wouldn't be
confident in putting my future in the hands of a company that is showing
only to be reactive rather than pro-active. It seems that Sun only comes out
with anouncements *after* MS has done something (good or bad). There's at
least 2 years of examples on eWeek.com about this
I cannot stop wondering why, everytime a Sun official is interviewed, he/she
have to mention MS and turn the whole conversation into a comparison. MS:
"we have this "new" cool thing coming out which you can download and see
[bla bla]" Sun: "we have this other cool thing being standardized and
"spec-ed" out which might come out [God knows when] and, by the way, it's
definitely a better answer to people's need than what MS is doing which is
obviously only meant to lock you in and make you pay their tax [<--aka money
*not* going to Sun <G>]". Am I just seeing things or this is how it really
looks? <G>
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

JQP wrote:
Quote
"Mike Margerum" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>What keeps sun from suing over clean room versions? Did they turn
>everything over to a standards body? I understand you have to license
>the trademarked java phrase from them but aside from that can they sue
>you for IP violations?

They sued MS over it.

Why? Because MS violated the license agreement.
This is so dumb to be argued.
If you license your software to someone with the condition that they must
adhere to standards and they take your software proprietize it, and violate
the temrs of the agreement, do you think they should get by with it? Of
course not. yet this is precisely what MS did.
Quote
>I understand the JCP process is democratic but sun still owns the
>rights to everything unless i missed something. I hope im wrong.

Java belongs to Sun in much the same way as .NET belongs to MS. Sun can
change the rules at any time and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
They've done it in the past, they probably will again in the future if it
suits their needs.
No ti sin;t the same as MS NET. MS does not allow anyone to set the
direction of NET but MS. Java allows the JCP to set the standards of Java.
Please know what you are talking about!!
Read this document, and it might enlighten you to the differences
jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/review/jsr215/index.html
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

pNichols < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in
Quote
Sun hasn't done the same thing. As I stated earler, the emphasis of
NET and the emphasis of Java are different. MS intended NET to be mono
platform from the beginning, Sun wanted Java xplatform from the very
beginning. Sun makes less $ off of Java than Borland, BEA, IBM, or
Oracle. Unfortubnate for Sun, to be sure, however, it shows the
ubiquity and the direction that was planned for Java. One common JVM
and APIs, many platforms. Net was intended to be many languages, one
and only one OS and platform.
That's one of the few disadvantages I see in Java. I do not understand
why Sun did not keep more language-independend. Ok, sure, it's possible
to work-around the limitations a little bit, but that's not the same.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Alessandro Federici" <alef@remobjects[remove-this].com>wrote in
Quote
While I agree that the emphasis MS puts if for Windows development,
the Rotor example and the fact thay didn't go after Ximian when they
started Mono (or later) suggests they are not that against ports IMHO
IMO it just suggests that they want to make it look like a cross-platform
environment.
There is also Wine? Does this turn the Win32-api in a cross-platform
environment? No, it does not. The same is true for mono.
IMO, it's important that the driving power behind a environment develops
it with the intention to be cross-platform. Clones may make software from
another platform usable to some degree, but I would always expect legal
and technical problems.
.NET /may/ turn into a cross-platform environment when some groups agree
on a cross-platform library on top of the standardisized .NET part. I
would not consider WinForms cross-platform, but I might consider some
independend developemnt of XForms, XDB, and so on as usable cross-
platform environment. I hope that such a development will happen, and
that Borland will support it.
Quote
Correct since that need wasn't filled by anybody else and has always
been a high priority for MS (see DDE, OLE, COM). That by itself is IMO
the most compelling reason to move to the .Net platform but I am
talking as a component vendor here.
On Windows, .NET may make some sense, yes.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"JQP" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM :
Quote
"Mike Margerum" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>What keeps sun from suing over clean room versions? Did they turn
>everything over to a standards body? I understand you have to license
>the trademarked java phrase from them but aside from that can they sue
>you for IP violations?

They sued MS over it.
No, they did not.
They sued MS because MS because they tried to make their own changes.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Andreas Prucha" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
No, they did not.

They sued MS because MS because they tried to make their own changes.
The point is that Sun "owns" Java and they have the ability to sue.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"pNichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
No ti sin;t the same as MS NET. MS does not allow anyone to set the
direction of NET but MS. Java allows the JCP to set the standards of Java.
Please know what you are talking about!!
LOL! There is no doubt as to who owns and controls Java.
The 3rd line in the document that defines the Java Community Process is:
"copyright(c) 1996-2003 Sun Microsystems".
Sun wrote it, Sun controls it, Sun owns it and they can change it any time
they want.
Sun decides who participates in the "Java Community Process". And just to
be sure there is no mis-understanding, Sun requires anyone wanting to
participate in the JCP to sign a number of legal agreements to this effect
and these agreements must be renewed on an annual a basis, which again is at
Sun's discretion.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

Quote
Sun wrote it, Sun controls it, Sun owns it and they can change it any time
they want.

This is my point. Everyone is on the java bandwagon and touting it as
free/open when Sun can at any time decide to start charging for it and
revoke licensing. Doesn't the fact that supposedly 75% of enterprise
coding is being done in an environment that is owned by one company
who is clearly on the decline and will be looking for new revenue
sources?
At least m$ opened up the CLR and C#. You can create your own
implementation of these and m$ cant ever come after you.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Mike Margerum" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
This is my point. Everyone is on the java bandwagon and touting it as
free/open when Sun can at any time decide to start charging for it and
revoke licensing.
They charge for it now but the exact terms are a closely guarded secret.
For example, Sun most likely gets a piece of every copy of JBuilder that is
sold. The only people who know the exact terms are Borland and Sun.
Revealing the terms would probably revoke Borland's license.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Andreas Prucha" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
>While I agree that the emphasis MS puts if for Windows development,
>the Rotor example and the fact thay didn't go after Ximian when they
>started Mono (or later) suggests they are not that against ports IMHO
IMO it just suggests that they want to make it look like a cross-platform
environment.
Well, it doesn't just look like one: it is (of no practical use of course or
nowhere near the extent Java is, but cross-platform nontheless).
Quote
There is also Wine? Does this turn the Win32-api in a cross-platform
environment? No, it does not. The same is true for mono.
Well, conceptually it does.
Quote
IMO, it's important that the driving power behind a environment develops
it with the intention to be cross-platform. Clones may make software from
another platform usable to some degree, but I would always expect legal
and technical problems.
.NET /may/ turn into a cross-platform environment when some groups agree
on a cross-platform library on top of the standardisized .NET part. I
would not consider WinForms cross-platform, but I might consider some
independend developemnt of XForms, XDB, and so on as usable cross-
platform environment. I hope that such a development will happen, and
that Borland will support it.
Fair enough but I would trust an effort such as Mono much better than
anything Borland does anyways (for cross-platform *outside* the Java scope),
expecially after the CLX fiasco. In between the non-so-reliable options we
have, it is (IMO and at the moment) the most reliable one.
Keep in mind that Mono doesn't really need WinForms too much. Not many
people don't use Linux or .Net for desktop apps, so as long as it supports
ASP.Net, ADO.Net and the server side stuff (which does now), it's gone as
far as it is useful for being usable.
Quote
On Windows, .NET may make some sense, yes.
A lot of sense ;-)