Board index » kylix » Re: Twisting in the wind?

Re: Twisting in the wind?


2004-02-21 05:53:21 PM
kylix1
Hilton Evans wrote:
Quote
>There is a huge flaw with the "instant profitability" argument as well,

If I was arguing for instant profitability, your rebuttal would apply.
Odd you would put in quotes something I never said. I was talking
about sales not profits. Businesses don't usually lower prices when
sales are good. In fact Borland's original Kylix Pro out of the blocks
price was a temporary $799, $200 off the regular $999 price.

I wasn't attributing it to you... Without HTML (which is really against NG
ruls, not much way to highlight things. I was using for an emphasis on a
philosopical business approach.>>
Quote

>JBuilder did not make Borland very much, if any mmoney in its first two
>iterations, either. In fact, Borland stated that JB was not producing
>healty profit margins until 3.0 and it was only at 4.0 (the first real
>Xplatform, all Java based version) that Borland started to own the Java
>IDE market.

Has Borland dropped the JB price 75%?

Unfortunately, no. they raised it but only AFTER they gained the markshare,
not before. It used to be cheaper than Visual Cafe when VC was the
pre{*word*109} Java IDE. That is the point is it not? You do not capture a
market by pricing yourself out of it. Besides, I will gaurantee you, Kylix
1 was not worth either 799.00 nor 999.00. In fact I would have a very hard
time saying it was worth 249.00 (what I paid for it).
Borland was trying to establish themselves in a new marketplace with Kylix.
Personally I think the initial pricing of Kylix was not a smart move on
Borland's part at all. WAY TOO HIGH to enter a new marketspace, and at the
time Borland was entering that marketspace, Desktop Linux was not that big
and was not a threat to MS {*word*108}. Different story now, ask MS, they
think so, othwerwise, why is MS DROPPING PRICES in several countries, like
Germany India, Israel, China, Brazil, Argentina, Korea, etc.?
Quote
None of which has anything to do with my argument that poor Kylix
sales can be inferred from it's drop in price.
Perhaps it was the realization that it was not going to sell at a ridiculous
price to start with. Everyone else offers cheaper prices on Linux including
IBM on DB/2 and Websphere, Oracle on Oracle 9i, 10g, and Oracle App Server,
and SAP as well.
Windows users are used to paying 599.00 for an office suite. Linux users are
not <G>. Windows users are used to paying thousands for development tools,
Linux users do not have to.
There is no KDevelop, Gambas, Visual TCL, etc. for Windows, nothing near
that quality for free on Windows. Sure Borland tools are better, but for
most are not 1000s or even 800.00-1000.00 better. $ 299.00 better? I would
say yes.
I guess we have different business philosophies. I kind of follow the Wal-
Mart philosophy, where you offer people good quality at the lowest prices
and you will sell. Some like the Saxs Fifth Avenue and Rodeo Drive model,
where you charge through the nose :)(Yes better quality but is a pair of
jeans really worth $300-$10,000.00)? You might remember, Microsoft got its
start by being cheaper than Unix, in the server sphere.
Personally I would rather have the Waltons money than the owners of Sax, but
hey, thats just me :).
 
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

Hilton Evans wrote:
Quote

Even the most simple minded of businesses can grasp the
concept that you should produce what sells.
Indeed, and this illustrates that the alleged in the original post
"poor sales" problem is not related to the spending habits of the
targeted customer group, but rather could be attributed to the nature
of the product by itself.
Quote
Kylix is a losing product. Do you think Borland dropped its list price
for Kylix Pro 75% from $999 to $249 for altruistic reasons? Feels
like an Hail Mary desperation pass.

The price adjustment can be perceived as an indication of price
mismatch, but it could ultimately translate in to bigger sales. Such
adjustment, is a normal common thing, specially when a unique to the
market product is launched for the first time, and where there is no
much of empirical data available to calculate accurately the suggested
price. In situation like this, an adjustment of prices is needed to
compensate for the mismatch with the demand. It may be an indication
of poor sales of the product at that moment, but after the adjustment
takes place and the prices are sustained it may indicate that the
product sells satisfactorily.
Quote
>As of today, about 45% of medium size businesses are using or
>experimenting with Linux.

Which could be a geek employee installed a free distro on her
computer and played with it.

Yes, it could be; that's how the progress begins... geeks and theirs
crazy ideas. ;-)
Quote
>spend about 25 billions dollars on Linux related solutions. It seems
>really strange that Kylix would not get some of the money.

Obviously Kylix got some of the money. Some of the money does not mean
enough money to cover development *and* continuing costs.
Naturally, the automatic goal of selling is to make profit. So, how
much profit Kylix could bring from direct sales or otherwise for the
company? The direct immediate profit is easy to calculate and I agree
that it for sure was not so great do to very substantial initial cost
of R&D, but it is not just a product per se, but a completely new
technology was born here, technology which was innovative and with a
great potential. If cultivated it could translate in to a substantial
profit in the future. It really puzzles me why someone would want to
squander that moneymaking future of Kylix; cut off the air supplies
and knife the baby.
juliusz
--
InstallMade - Kylix-specific installer
www.superobject.com/installmade/
www.superobject.com/imoe/download.html
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

"pnichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
Hilton Evans wrote:


>>There is a huge flaw with the "instant profitability" argument as well,
>
>If I was arguing for instant profitability, your rebuttal would apply.
>Odd you would put in quotes something I never said. I was talking
>about sales not profits. Businesses don't usually lower prices when
>sales are good. In fact Borland's original Kylix Pro out of the blocks
>price was a temporary $799, $200 off the regular $999 price.
>
I wasn't attributing it to you... Without HTML (which is really against NG
ruls, not much way to highlight things.
*s are often used to indicate italics in NG posts.
Quote
I was using for an emphasis on a
philosopical business approach.>>
When someone creates a business plan they are not necessarily
expecting instant profits. However they probably do have sales and
profit targets. It's reasonable to expect immediate *operating* profits.
If they miss low by a wide margin the business plan is probably a dud.
Quote
>
>Has Borland dropped the JB price 75%?
>
Unfortunately, no. they raised it but only AFTER they gained the markshare,
not before.
Suggesting demand for JB influences price. That said, I think they might be
making a mistake in the opposite direction. Perceived gauging can cost
a company future sales. OTOH cable TV companies have been living on
the if you gauge them they will grumble and come model for years <g>.
Quote
It used to be cheaper than Visual Cafe when VC was the
pre{*word*109} Java IDE. That is the point is it not? You do not capture a
market by pricing yourself out of it. Besides, I will gaurantee you, Kylix
1 was not worth either 799.00 nor 999.00. In fact I would have a very hard
time saying it was worth 249.00 (what I paid for it).
100% agree.

>None of which has anything to do with my argument that poor Kylix
>sales can be inferred from it's drop in price.
I guess we have different business philosophies.
I think you're trying to put words in my mouth or philosophies in my head by
creating arguments I haven't made.
A cursory groups.google search for my name and "developer survey" will show that
I considered Kylix to be overpriced from the day it was introduced. Ironically, I'm
quoted, in a thread you initiated in Feb. 2001.
Quote
Personally I would rather have the Waltons money than the owners of Sax, but
hey, thats just me :).
Sachs is a successful profitable store chain.
So called quality discounters Ames(defunct), Woolworth(all but defunct),
KMart(chronically bankrupt), Bradlees(defunct), Caldor(defunct), E.J. Korvette
(defunct), are not.
Walmart's success has as much to do with its smart use of strategic supply
chaining, bargaining power with suppliers, effective use of technology and
labor practices than with its pricing.
In any case, the Walmart vs. Sachs argument has nothing to do with any point
I've made about Kylix.
--
Hilton Evans
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{smallsort}

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

Hilton Evans wrote:
[...]
Quote
*s are often used to indicate italics in NG posts.
[...]
No, no, no, no, no. '*' are used for bold, '/' are used
for italic.
B
--
www.mailtrap.org.uk/
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

In article <4036e263$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM >, XXXX@XXXXX.COM says...
Quote
>Have you used it recently? Seems I've been reading the following
paragraph for several years now?

Yes. Have you? I find the latest version to be quite functional.

Are there any data-aware controls? Which databases are supported. A
cursory search on the web didn't reveal much in that direction yet, but
perhaps there is recent work that isn't widely known?
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

"Bob { Goddard }" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Hilton Evans wrote:
[...]
>*s are often used to indicate italics in NG posts.
[...]

No, no, no, no, no. '*' are used for bold, '/' are used
for italic.
I stand corrected. Thanks. One reason /I/ should
stick to tags ;-)
--
Hilton Evans
-----------------------------------------------
ChemPen Chemical Structure Software
www.chempensoftware.com
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.593 / Virus Database: 376 - Release Date: 2/20/04
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

JQP wrote:
Quote
..
coming to their senses and cutting their loses. After 3 years of real
experience in this "market", management obviously has serious doubts as to
whether there can ever be a "moneymaking future of Kylix".

The problem with your rationalization is that we really don't know why
the support for the product suddenly stopped in the moment when Kylix
just starting to become useful and become accepted World wide. It is
not obvious at all that Borland's management has serious doubts about
moneymaking future of Kylix. We just relay don't know that. To the
contrary Borland expressed publicly that they understand perfectly
that Kylix is a long term investment strategy for Borland, just like
JBuilder was in its infancy. I believe that Danny Thorpe's word is
much more credible then your baseless conclusion about what is
happening with Kylix.
Quote
Noone knows for sure what the future will bring but we can certainly learn
from the past. Since before Kylix was ever released, lots of people were
making bold predictions for Linux on the desktop. They were wrong then,
they're most likely wrong now.
Why they should be wrong? Linux is progressing steadily on all fronts
including desktop and there is no any tangible force to stop it. And
the Linux progress is based solely on it own merit of technical
excellence. Linux is not only used on desktop but in any imaginable
places where computers are used on almost any imaginable processors
you may think of. Did you try the latest Linux kernel along with the
newest KDE desktop? If you don't like it wait a couple of months and
try again. Linux is becoming better every day, and because it provides
an excellent value the use of it is increasing as well, the trend
continue and will continue.. that's what is obvious and that's what
is frightening to Microsoft. Incidentally, this is is not necessary a
bad thing for Windows users, because do to the pressure created by the
presents of Linux, Microsoft had to take action and improve Windows on
many fronts like stability and security as well price wise; they just
do not have a choice, that's the wonder of competition at work, and
that's where the benefits to consumer are obvious. You do enjoy Linux
fruits, even if you are only a Windows user and do not use Linux at all.
Quote
How much tolerance for being wrong do you have?

Huh.. the thing what I do not tolerate very well is mindless trolling
and spreading FUD about Linux and Kylix, a specially by people who do
not know much about the subject in question. But I have to admit that
it can be entertaining at times watching them embarrassing themselves
again and again and seems that they never learn from the past.
juliusz
--
InstallMade - Kylix-specific installer
www.superobject.com/installmade/
www.superobject.com/imoe/download.html
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

"juliusz" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
It really puzzles me why someone would want to
squander that moneymaking future of Kylix; cut off the air supplies
and knife the baby.
It's a judgment call.
If you're convinced that Linux is on the verge of a desktop takeover, it
looks like Borland is making a mistake. If not, it looks like Borland is
coming to their senses and cutting their loses. After 3 years of real
experience in this "market", management obviously has serious doubts as to
whether there can ever be a "moneymaking future of Kylix".
Noone knows for sure what the future will bring but we can certainly learn
from the past. Since before Kylix was ever released, lots of people were
making bold predictions for Linux on the desktop. They were wrong then,
they're most likely wrong now. How much tolerance for being wrong do you
have? At what point do you cut your losses and move on? It looks like
Borland is about to reach that point.
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

"juliusz" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
The problem with your rationalization is that we really don't know why
the support for the product suddenly stopped in the moment when Kylix
just starting to become useful and become accepted World wide. It is
not obvious at all that Borland's management has serious doubts about
moneymaking future of Kylix. We just relay don't know that.
Yes, for all we know Borland ran out of room in their bank account for all
the cash from Kylix sales. After all, it's a common thing for a company to
abandon a money making product. They do it all the time.
YEAH RIGHT !!!
And I'm the one engaged in rationalization?
YEAH RIGHT !!!
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

JQP wrote:
Quote
"juliusz" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news:40390800$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>The problem with your rationalization is that we really don't know why
>the support for the product suddenly stopped in the moment when Kylix
>just starting to become useful and become accepted World wide. It is
>not obvious at all that Borland's management has serious doubts about
>moneymaking future of Kylix. We just relay don't know that.

Yes, for all we know Borland ran out of room in their bank account for all
the cash from Kylix sales. After all, it's a common thing for a company
to
abandon a money making product. They do it all the time.
Comical Ali does it again.
Yes, they do it all the time.
If they feel it's not making enough money, they may feel
that they would get a better return investing it in other
products.
As well as giving the impression that you know nothing
about IT, you're now also giving the impression that
you know nothing about economics and business.
Quote
YEAH RIGHT !!!

And I'm the one engaged in rationalization?

YEAH RIGHT !!!
Oh yes you are.
--
www.mailtrap.org.uk/
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

"JQP" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
"juliusz" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news:403794be$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
[snip]
If you're convinced that Linux is on the verge of a desktop takeover, it
looks like Borland is making a mistake. If not, it looks like Borland is
coming to their senses and cutting their loses. After 3 years of real
experience in this "market", management obviously has serious doubts as to
whether there can ever be a "moneymaking future of Kylix".
Sadly I agree with you. I do think Borland is cutting their losses.
It seems to me that Linux has made an enclave into corporate server-style
computing, but has not and probably will not push into the desktop.
Server-style applications under Linux are often command-line prompt
programs that do not use RAD. Hence I think the lack of demand
for Borland-style tools.
A pity.
John Roberts
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

I hope you're right, but I think you're not.
I think Linux on the desktop, even for businesses, is years away
and I doubt there will be a market for RAD tools until then.
Kylix was a cool experiment, the kind of tool I want under Linux
(yes I have Kylix, a freebie with my C++Builder 6 :)
I just wish more folks wanted it too so Borland would keep it alive.
John Roberts
"David Cornelius" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
From what I've heard, Borland is not "abandoning" Kylix, it's just that
there
won't be any new releases in 2004. I suppose that's non-committal enough
to
allow them to abandon it next year if the market doesn't pick up, but I
wouldn't
say Kylix is dead yet. Every year, the Linux desktop gets better and more
people embrace it--there will always be a place for a GUI RAD tool.
Besides, as
an article mentioned in another thread in this group stated, Kylix with
WebSnap
on Linux "makes it pathetically easy to build powerful, native DSO
libraries
that run on Apache" which is the most popular web server on the planet.

--
David Cornelius
CorneliusConcepts.com


"John Roberts" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news:4035ae73$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Hi,

I attended Borcon 2003 where it was apparent that Kylix was the
illegitimate child and that Borland was abandoning it.

Too bad, I applaud Borland for at least attempting to try to make
money in the Linux arena where developers are used to paying
nothing.

Still to me, the concept of one language (Object Pascal) producing
an executable that can work under Linux, 32-bit Windows and
.NET (all achievable with Delphi today!) was a grand and worthwhile
(to me) vision.

Unfortunately I see the Linux side dropping out of the picture.
I regret this, although Borland has to respond to economic reality.
Probably no one was buying Kylix. Kylix is dead.

I think what Kylix is, it is and it will be no more than that.


John Roberts




 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

My impression is that Linux is being used for server-side work in
corporate computing and that doesn't require a "pleasant" user
interface. I still see a great deal of command-line prompt
mechanisms for server-side products.
If Linux took off on the desktop, then I think there would
be a real demand for a RAD tool, but that isn't where Linux
is being used right now.
John Roberts
"juliusz" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
John Roberts wrote:
>I attended Borcon 2003 where it was apparent that Kylix was the
>illegitimate child and that Borland was abandoning it.
>
>Too bad, I applaud Borland for at least attempting to try to make
>money in the Linux arena where developers are used to paying
>nothing.
>


It is pretty strange motion that Kylix was not successful because
Linux users does not want to spend money. How we know for sure that
Kylix was not profitable, all we know that suddenly support for the
product stopped, but we don't know why. Borland indicated that they
are focusing on big customers, so perhaps one of the big customers
purchase all copies of Kylix 4 and Kylix 5 <g>

As of today, about 45% of medium size businesses are using or
experimenting with Linux. Only in the last 3 years corporations,
businesses, governments and various organization around the world
spend about 25 billions dollars on Linux related solutions. It seems
really strange that Kylix would not get some of the money.



juliusz
--
InstallMade - Kylix-specific installer
www.superobject.com/installmade/
www.superobject.com/imoe/download.html
 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

I plan at being at the next Borcon, but I suspect we'll just here more
of the same, namely "postponement-style" statements.
If Linux on the desktop achieved some market penetration, then
I think there would be real demand for a RAD tool like Kylix,
but with Linux relegated to server-side work (mostly), then
there's little need and I'm sure, little sales.
I do think CBuilderX is the future direction for Borland and Linux.
Linux developers would probably prefer C++ anyway.
Unfortunately CBuilderX is still far away from being a true RAD tool,
though I suppose there's hope for a better release of that this year.
Sigh. I still would _love_ to have just one RAD tool where I
can develop, then target Linux, Win32 and .NET. Delphi/Kylix
is soooo close to being that tool.
John Roberts
"Brion L. Webster" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
David Cornelius wrote:

>From what I've heard, Borland is not "abandoning" Kylix, it's
>just that there won't be any new releases in 2004. I suppose
>that's non-committal enough to allow them to abandon it next year
>if the market doesn't pick up, but I wouldn't say Kylix is dead
>yet.

I was at BorCon 2003 also, and well remember the squirming dodges
from Borland staff when asked about Kylix. The official statement
was "no updates in 2004", which could be taken either way. On the
one hand - they haven't made a promise they couldn't keep, like
Win32 and .NET in the same IDE by August 2003, which, IIRC, was the
original public goal of Delphi 8. That means they don't need to be
held to artificial deadlines and produce a {*word*99}py Kylix 4. On the
other hand, it means we're left twisting in the wind, without even
service packs. Argh.

A couple of other issues that probably will have an impact - all
you C++ folks know the C++ Builder product doesn't live with the
same team anymore, so the future of Kylix C++ is up in the air.
Simon Thornhill isn't with Borland anymore, and he was one of the
squirmiest about Kylix, including refusing to take those questions
at the Meet the Team session.

If you can wait, and I can, let's see what Kylix noise comes out of
Borland in late 2004/early 2005. If we haven't heard anything come
April 2005, then it's probably dead.

-Brion

 

Re:Re: Twisting in the wind?

I'll check it out, but I'm inherently suspicious about open-source projects
producing something of commercial quality. I did a paper about this
topic for one of my graduate CS classes. Check out my link off of:
www.cs.pdx.edu/~robertsj/
The specific paper link is:
www.cs.pdx.edu/~robertsj/debunk.html
John Roberts
ps
I applaud your efforts and hope you do produce something cool.
I'm just very skeptical about open source projects.
"Jeff Undercash" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
John, object pascal is alive, well and better than ever. Check out
Lazarus.
This is the self-described "Delphi emulator" that is "write once compile
anywhere". You can take your Delphi code and create executables on
Windows,
Linux and probably other platforms as well. The best thing about it is
the
community. If you find a bug fix, it gets added to the code base quickly.
The more people that contribute to Lazarus the faster it will grow.