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Linux into the limelight


2004-02-02 06:55:41 AM
kylix1
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3436289.stm
Meanwhile Borland bets the farm on .Net ... ?
 
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

"Jeff Undercash" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3436289.stm

Meanwhile Borland bets the farm on .Net ... ?
Meanwhile this forum is a testament to Borland's bet on Open Source.
If you want to go Open Source, you should look to Open Source for your own
needs. I wouldn't count on much support from proprietary software vendors.
Borland learned the hard way that proprietary and Open Source just don't mix
very well. Companies like Oracle and Sun will learn the same lesson
eventually.
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

Quote
Borland learned the hard way that proprietary and Open Source just don't mix
very well. Companies like Oracle and Sun will learn the same lesson
eventually.
Depends on what is meant by "mix"
Other that distribution issues, there is no problem to run a closed
source program on an open source OS. This is what Oracle usually does.
OTOH as there are open source alternatives that _might_ be chosen
instead of Oracle (independent of the OS used) and as those are
improving, Oracle might need to rethink their prices and that might be
hard. Offering their stuff additionally on Linux can't harm. If the DB
software on Linux is cheaper on Linux than on Windows (or any of some 10
platforms Oracle offer) the users will install a Linux box with the
appropriate distribution for it. If there is an open source DB that fits
their need, they might drop Oracle completely.
Providing development tools is another issue. The developers need to
make sure their software runs on all distributions. Open source often is
the way to go. Open source developers will not be able to pay for
development tools.
.NET might help here. If it turns out that you can run Delphi .NET
program well on MONO/Linux, this opens a way to supply distribution
independent closed source software.
-Michael
 

{smallsort}

Re:Linux into the limelight

"JQP" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
"Jeff Undercash" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news:401dce0a$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3436289.stm
>
>Meanwhile Borland bets the farm on .Net ... ?

Meanwhile this forum is a testament to Borland's bet on Open Source.
To be fair it is more testament to Borland's misreading of its target
market.
First, I think you are right that targeting traditional Linux devs
with Kylix was DOA. That said, Borland got off on a broken foot when
it priced Kylix for Wall $treet and not for to tool buying main street.
Then there were the bugs; much complained about in this and
other forums.
Then there was the library dependent deployment. A basic deployment/
installer tool would have gone a long way to transitioning traditional
Delphi users and developing on Linux. How many times had you seen
the FAQ -- 'How do I run my Kylix app outside the Kylix IDE?'.
--
Hilton Evans
-----------------------------------------------
ChemPen Chemical Structure Software
www.chempensoftware.com
Quote

If you want to go Open Source, you should look to Open Source for your own
needs. I wouldn't count on much support from proprietary software vendors.

Borland learned the hard way that proprietary and Open Source just don't mix
very well. Companies like Oracle and Sun will learn the same lesson
eventually.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.572 / Virus Database: 362 - Release Date: 1/27/04
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

"Michael Schnell" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Other that distribution issues, there is no problem to run a closed
source program on an open source OS. This is what Oracle usually does.
As far as Oracle is concerned, Linux is currently just a deployment option.
But this is a rather short sighted view IMO.
Quote
If there is an open source DB that fits
their need, they might drop Oracle completely.
Open Source is a potential competitor for any proprietary software company,
including Oracle. Their promotion and encouragment of Open Source won't last
once *they* start to feel pressured by it. But apparently they don't think
that far ahead.
How would Oracle react if IBM released DB2 as Open Source? Would Open
Source still be the way to go? If an Open Source operating system is good,
why not an Open Source database?
Quote
.NET might help here. If it turns out that you can run Delphi .NET
program well on MONO/Linux, this opens a way to supply distribution
independent closed source software.
This is what I'm waiting to see<g>.
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

JQP schrieb:
Quote
"Jeff Undercash" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news:401dce0a$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...

>news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3436289.stm
>
>Meanwhile Borland bets the farm on .Net ... ?


Meanwhile this forum is a testament to Borland's bet on Open Source.

mhm, there is only one question: is there an alternative to microsoft
monopol! the answer is: Linux
AND on Linux can exist open source software products and commercial
software products, as in the meantime also on Windows.
It's not the discussion: all should be open source ...
Quote
If you want to go Open Source, you should look to Open Source for your own
needs. I wouldn't count on much support from proprietary software vendors.

Borland learned the hard way that proprietary and Open Source just don't mix
very well. Companies like Oracle and Sun will learn the same lesson
eventually.

If Borland has a commercial product: "Delphi for Linux" (and this works
well) and it has a price, so developers can buy it, they will sell it.
I don't see anything, why not. It gives Delphi windows-developer the
possibilty to port the source and applications to LINUX too. That's all.
Oracle and Sun port there commercial products to Linux, and they make a
good money with this doing, why Borland not?
Perhaps Borland is a sub-company from Microsoft now?
It is a war between Microsoft and Linux, nothing more.
And it was a very strategic decision to bind Borland on Microsft,
because Borland has very good development tools, and to stop Borland's
LINUX engangment = stop Delphi developers to make LINUX a fast growing
Dekstop OS. But LINUX will grow, with or without Borland, with or
without Delphi.
And for Borland this is not a good way in the future. To bind Borland on
Microsoft will press the air out of Borland, you will see ...
(p.e.: Delphi 8.NET is the first Delphi, where you have really no
advantage to use it, instead of visual studio).
(And is it Delphi? look in your install folder: BDS ->2.0)
What will be happens? Delphi-developers have to search other developing
tools, and this is good for Borland?
conclusio: Stopping engagement for "Delhpi on LINUX" hurts very much the
Delphi-developers and Borland itself too.
Borland was a "developer company" for developers, but now it's a
"manager company" but for what?
regards
Gerhard
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

Quote
Borland learned the hard way that proprietary and Open Source just don't
mix
very well. Companies like Oracle and Sun will learn the same lesson
eventually.
I don't agree with this at all. Open source is the operating system.
Proprietary vendors will ALWAYS make money. Kylix has problems because it
was an unfinished product. Linux is a new and expanding market. I believe
Borland can make the most money capturing that market vs. trying to wrestle
market share from an already saturated market (Windows).
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

"Jeff Undercash" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
I don't agree with this at all. Open source is the operating system.
Proprietary vendors will ALWAYS make money. Kylix has problems because
it was an unfinished product. Linux is a new and expanding market. I
believe
Borland can make the most money capturing that market vs. trying to
wrestle
market share from an already saturated market (Windows).
Lots of points open for debate but debate may be pointless<g>.
If Linux is such a lucrative and expanding market for proprietary software,
where are all the vendors?
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

Are you blind or just choosing not to see them??
Quote
If Linux is such a lucrative and expanding market for proprietary
software,
where are all the vendors?
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

"Jeff Undercash" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Are you blind or just choosing not to see them??
Can you name one highly successful proprietary Linux desktop app?
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

Waiting for a good dev. tool for Linux?
At least, thats is my reason...
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

Desktop apps... Are you serious? How about something more difficult like
games? Check out Savage at www.s2games.com and Never Winter Nights
nwn.bioware.com.
Quote
Can you name one highly successful proprietary Linux desktop app?
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

"mamcx" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Waiting for a good dev. tool for Linux?

At least, thats is my reason...
I'm waiting for potential users willing to buy my software. That's my
excuse.
Adequate tools are available. They may not be RAD in the Delphi sense but
they are workable. I've written quite a few non-RAD apps in my time. I'd
be writing for Linux if I thought there was a reasonable chance to
distribute the software and make money.
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

"Jeff Undercash" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Desktop apps... Are you serious? How about something more difficult like
games? Check out Savage at www.s2games.com and Never Winter
Nights nwn.bioware.com.
Sorry, games are for geeks. I do apps for business users.
 

Re:Linux into the limelight

JQP wrote:
Quote
"Jeff Undercash" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news:401ea07b$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>Are you blind or just choosing not to see them??

Can you name one highly successful proprietary Linux desktop app?
Why? Nearly all of the Linux Desktop apps are free? So, I beg to ask the
question, why pay for one when it is not necessary?
Of course, you can choose the alternatives. Here are the basic Desktops
applications purchasable by and for MS desktops and their Linux
equivalents. I do not purpose the list below is all inclusive for either
Micrisoft Windows desktops, nor Linux. they do, however, represent the most
popular.:
Microsoft Office Small Business Edition (New Version) : $349.00 (source
Amazon.com)
Open Office : Download www.openoffice.org $ 0.00
KOffice : Download (bundled with most distros):$ 0.00
Sun Star Office : 79.95 (Source sun.com)
MS Front Page (New) : $ 199.00 (source Amazxon.com)
BlueFish, Quanta : Download $ 0.00
Microsoft Access : $ 499.00
KNoda (for mySQL) : Download (included in most new distros) $ 0.00
Publishing tools:
MS Publisher: (new) : $ 159.95 (source Amazon.com)
Scribbus : (Download) $ 0.00
Graphics Tools:
Paint Shop Pro: $ 85.99 (Amazon.com)
Gimp: Download (included in most Linux Distros): $ 0.00
Finance:
Qucken (new) $ 49.95 (Amazon.com)
GnuCash : (Download, included in most distros) $ 0.00
Mechanical Drawings, Flowchart:
MS Viso : 499.00 (Amazon.com)
Dia, Posiedon, etc : (Download, included in most disros) $ 0.00
Virus Programs:
Norton Anti Vitrus Pro :$ 69.99 (new pro edition)
Not really needed on Linux, but if you want one, AntiVir again is a download
away Cost for AntiVir= $ 0.00
So forgive me if I am confused as to why anyone would want to pay for most
desktop applications, when nearly all major desktop apps are free on Linux.
To equip a similar Windows based machine with just the freebies mentioned,
you would be looking at well over $ 1,500.00.
Besides, since you seem to place great stock on the lucrative boxed software
market, I can ask only one question, which of these Windows products, do
you or your company produce? If you are not now producing one, could you
tell me which of the above you are going to compete with, that will make
you tons of money? I do not think you or any other company, can afford to
compete with any of the above.
80-90% of all programmers do not programfor the general commercial desktop
application market (discounting the {*word*143} industry of course). The
majority of application developers in the world, are employed to do custom
system based client/server application for businesses, where the over the
counter apps will not meet business needs.
In this overwhelming majority of developer employment and development
efforts, the OS becomes irrelevant, it is the tools and the programming
platform (aka C/C++, Java, NET) that becomes inportant, not the OS. The
only importance the OS plays is marketshare, not development labors.
Programmers and software companies, generally, are not going to be able to
challenge the entrenched marketspace due to exorbitant cost to and time
expense to makert. Not many companies are going to have the marketing
capital needed to challenge say MS Office, or Quicken for the Windows
Desktop. Any company wishing to complete against Open Office or Star Office
on Linux, will also find it less than a satisfying experience, since not
only are you competing with entrenched marketshare, but also free.
However, value added tools, like specialized applications for the medical,
educational, transportation, food, argricultural, retail business,
wholesale, etc. can be a great market not only for customized outsourced
solutions but also internal corporate wide IT. Here again, the OS becomes
less relevant, but the ability to run your software on any and all
platforms does become much more important.