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Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix


2005-11-26 01:33:53 AM
kylix2
"Marco van de Voort" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
On 2005-11-24, Robby Tanner < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
>
>>Personally I'd rather blame Microsoft giving away free tools at each
>>training
>>event, and systematically seeming to price VS at 3/4 of the Borland
>>price.
>
>Don't you mean "credit" Microsoft rather than "blame"?

No. Exactly 3/4 relative to another product means the products price is
set/fixed, not a result of costs.

If you think that Microsoft and Borland really "compete" in the tools
arena,
and the price of Microsofts tools reflects the costs that Microsoft had
developing them, then you are _seriously_ naieve :-)
No, I wasn't suggesting that, nor was I being serious.
Quote
Microsoft IMHO intends to kill Borland, at least as bulk (off-the-shelf,
shrink wrapped) development tools vendor. Borland knows that, because
otherwise Borland could continue as off-the-shelf tools developer, and
didn't have to put focus on ALM.
For the most part, I agree with your analysis.
I was being cheeky. The business school mentality applauds the heartless,
destruction of any potential rivals, even if they aren't competitors at
present.
I saw a sign on a cab in Chicago for some business school, possibly Harvard.
The slogan was "Why do you think they don't call it 'soft, warm cash'?"
What a nice sentiment. There's a cognitive movement at the institutional
level to remove any ethics from business that may interfere with increasing
profit (see The Godfather movies specifically with reference to "it's just
business"). Within such a framework, anything M$ does to kill off
competition is to be admired with the one exception of getting caught.
Cheers,
Rob
 
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

"Marco van de Voort" wrote:
Quote
No. Exactly 3/4 relative to another product means the products price is
set/fixed, not a result of costs.

If you think that Microsoft and Borland really "compete" in the tools
arena,
and the price of Microsofts tools reflects the costs that Microsoft had
developing them, then you are _seriously_ naieve :-)
I suppose the costs to develop comparable products in the same country (=
comparable costs) are about the same. If MS sels 4 times more products than
Borland than the costs per unit are 1/4. Considering that I think the prices
of MS are much to high!
Quote
Microsoft IMHO intends to kill Borland,
That's the last thing MS wants IMO. MS has troubles enough with the
authorities about their monopoly game. I think they keep Borland alive, MS
is a important shareholder of Borland, so they can say: "Look, there is
competition, we are not that bad!"
Peter
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Delphi (win32) was and is the best Developing Suite i ever saw and worked.
It was and is possible to make good, stable and fast commercial
applications.
Therefore i had a wish to do the same with Linux OS and a Delphi like
IDE and my 10.000s of lines of sourcecode i wrote in 7 years with delphi.
I could not change to Delphi 8 (i bought for nothing, never used)
because its not possible to port my lot of source within a normal time.
(only simple projects)
Sorry, if i was so naive ...
And as commercial developer i can do nothing with the open source
IDEs, because i cannot use my existing source.
I am alone? Where are the 100.000ts of Delphi devleopers?
And i will pay for a good Delphi Developing Suite, what supports
Win32, .net and Linux with my existing source. And i know, 10.000ts of
other commercial developers too ...
And this is no business for Borland? bullshit, it is.
They have 100.000ts of thankfull Delphi developers ... they will greedy
for a new version where they can use the existing source in Linux or the
new windows OS.
Open source IDEs:
Yes i tried Lazarus, nice project, and i wish the developers the best,
but: i could not transfer only one of a lot of projects to lazarus, why?
I need: Network programming, fast stabile DB-connections (p.e. to
oracle, MS-SQL, Firebird), need office automatisation, SMTP-Relays,
embedded Flash, AcrobatReader, and, and ... (no comment)
Commercial applications have a lot of functions in it, and they have to
be developed in short time, to be successfull. Delphi let us do it, with
100'ts of third party components, and let us make GUIs that are similar
that from Office 2003 or XP on windows (at this moment).
So, you said before: Many companies give their developing tools free
away, i can understand, nothing comes Borland Delphi near, nothing ...
(I developed before in C, Fortran77, Pacal on VMS :), and some other
languages, and with some projects with MS C++, VB for applications, and
so on, so i know what i write here)
Its similar with MS Office and Open Office.
I am astonished what a lot of functions OO has, but i cannot use it till
now. I only use it, to export PDF files. (MS-Access is missing, and this
is the most important local DB in all companies i know).
sorry, cannot write more, have no words ...
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Michael Schnell wrote:
Quote
Maybe that is why open source software is somewhat doomed. Everybody can
see the program before it's ready.

-Michael
No that is a *very* interesting point!!! Never looked at it that way.
Regards,
- Graeme -
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

prom wrote:
Quote
I am astonished what a lot of functions OO has, but i cannot use it till
now. I only use it, to export PDF files. (MS-Access is missing, and this
is the most important local DB in all companies i know).
OpenOffice 2.0 has an improved integrated database called OO Base.
dba.openoffice.org/miscellaneous/dba20.html
It can be used to view/edit tables, design forms, queries, etc. You can
connect to external SQL databases, or use it with its own single file
internal SQL database. Have you given it a try?
Regards,
Wayne Sherman
Las Vegas
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Wayne Sherman schrieb:
Quote
prom wrote:

>I am astonished what a lot of functions OO has, but i cannot use it
>till now. I only use it, to export PDF files. (MS-Access is missing,
>and this is the most important local DB in all companies i know).


OpenOffice 2.0 has an improved integrated database called OO Base.

dba.openoffice.org/miscellaneous/dba20.html

It can be used to view/edit tables, design forms, queries, etc. You can
connect to external SQL databases, or use it with its own single file
internal SQL database. Have you given it a try?
Yes, i did, tried with ODBC on Windows to connect to my Firebird
Databases ... could make SQL statemants but don't get the tables in the
table combobox ...
Also cannot understand that OO Base not support Open Source Firebird
database in a better way as with ODBC.
With Firebird embedded there could be a local single user fast and very
stable database without limits, only the harddisk size, with Firebird
SQL Server a perfect Enterprise Database on WindowsXP, Windows server,
Linux, Sun, HP-Unix and so on ...
But for non IT-People that only know a little MS Access it's not really
an alternative to this time of development.
best regards
Prom
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Quote
(MS-Access is missing, and this
is the most important local DB in all companies i know).

Do you mean the Data handling GUI program (Access) or do you mean the
database backend (by default Access uses the "Jet-engine", but same
comes with Windows, anyway, independently of Access, and Access can use
lots of other brackens, as well) ?
OO/2 comes with an Access-alike Data handling GUI. I don't know if it
can use the Jet Engine. I also don't know if there is a database
software backend for Linux that can use Jet-engine-files.
-Michael
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Quote

>(MS-Access is missing, and this
>is the most important local DB in all companies i know).
>

Do you mean the Data handling GUI program (Access) or do you mean the
database backend (by default Access uses the "Jet-engine", but same
comes with Windows, anyway, independently of Access, and Access can use
lots of other brackens, as well) ?

OO/2 comes with an Access-alike Data handling GUI. I don't know if it
can use the Jet Engine. I also don't know if there is a database
software backend for Linux that can use Jet-engine-files.

-Michael

I don't believe there's any way to work with an Access .mdb database on
Linux or Mac. That dooms those 2 platforms in many organizations.
The Mac has MS Office, but that version has never included Access.
--- posted by geoForum on delphi.newswhat.com
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Quote
prom wrote:
>I am astonished what a lot of functions OO has, but i cannot use it till
>now. I only use it, to export PDF files. (MS-Access is missing, and this
>is the most important local DB in all companies i know).

OpenOffice 2.0 has an improved integrated database called OO Base.

dba.openoffice.org/miscellaneous/dba20.html

It can be used to view/edit tables, design forms, queries, etc. You can
connect to external SQL databases, or use it with its own single file
internal SQL database. Have you given it a try?

Regards,

Wayne Sherman
Las Vegas


The Base db that comes with OO 2 is pretty much a joke. It doesn't compare
even with the MS Access of 10 years ago. Almost completely useless except
to play with.
I think this shows how difficult it is to create a program like Access. MS
really put some effort into this, killing off both Paradox and dBASE in
one blow in the process.
It's not clear that the OO team even understands what a desktop db should
look like or do. MS certainly does, but Access is Windows only, although
very, very functional.
--- posted by geoForum on delphi.newswhat.com
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Yes, yes, and yes. Borland really let us down when it came to
cross-platform. All they have now is Java, which has failed miserably on
the desktop. Kylix was a great product, but Borland ran away from it like
it was a house on fire.
Free Pascal and Lazarus are both shaping up as very nice, very general
cross-platform tools. As I understand it, support for COM and Automation
are planned for FPC 2.2 (www.freepascal.org/future.html). Don't
forget that using Automation ties your programs to Windows only. However,
on Windows Automation is extremely handy at working with MS Office (or OO)
remotely and for adding remote control capabilities to your own programs.
Something like Automation is badly needed on Linux and OS X.
Lazarus also has a few things that Delphi doesn't even have. Do you know
what they are? Take a look at some of the units included with Lazarus. And
they're all cross-platform too.
Quote
Delphi (win32) was and is the best Developing Suite i ever saw and worked.
It was and is possible to make good, stable and fast commercial
applications.
Therefore i had a wish to do the same with Linux OS and a Delphi like
IDE and my 10.000s of lines of sourcecode i wrote in 7 years with delphi.
I could not change to Delphi 8 (i bought for nothing, never used)
because its not possible to port my lot of source within a normal time.
(only simple projects)
Sorry, if i was so naive ...

And as commercial developer i can do nothing with the open source
IDEs, because i cannot use my existing source.

I am alone? Where are the 100.000ts of Delphi devleopers?
And i will pay for a good Delphi Developing Suite, what supports
Win32, .net and Linux with my existing source. And i know, 10.000ts of
other commercial developers too ...
And this is no business for Borland? bullshit, it is.

They have 100.000ts of thankfull Delphi developers ... they will greedy
for a new version where they can use the existing source in Linux or the
new windows OS.


Open source IDEs:

Yes i tried Lazarus, nice project, and i wish the developers the best,
but: i could not transfer only one of a lot of projects to lazarus, why?
I need: Network programming, fast stabile DB-connections (p.e. to
oracle, MS-SQL, Firebird), need office automatisation, SMTP-Relays,
embedded Flash, AcrobatReader, and, and ... (no comment)
Commercial applications have a lot of functions in it, and they have to
be developed in short time, to be successfull. Delphi let us do it, with
100'ts of third party components, and let us make GUIs that are similar
that from Office 2003 or XP on windows (at this moment).

So, you said before: Many companies give their developing tools free
away, i can understand, nothing comes Borland Delphi near, nothing ...
(I developed before in C, Fortran77, Pacal on VMS :), and some other
languages, and with some projects with MS C++, VB for applications, and
so on, so i know what i write here)
Its similar with MS Office and Open Office.
I am astonished what a lot of functions OO has, but i cannot use it till
now. I only use it, to export PDF files. (MS-Access is missing, and this
is the most important local DB in all companies i know).

sorry, cannot write more, have no words ...

--- posted by geoForum on delphi.newswhat.com
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

"WinPgmr-MacUser" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in
Quote
The Base db that comes with OO 2 is pretty much a joke. It doesn't
compare even with the MS Access of 10 years ago. Almost completely
useless except to play with.
Agreed.
Quote
I think this shows how difficult it is to create a program like
Access. MS really put some effort into this, killing off both Paradox
and dBASE in one blow in the process.
Disagree. MS killed the competition by bundling an office suite and
pricing it so low no one else could make any money. There was nothing
better in Access than what was in Paradox/DB/Foxpro at the time.
--
Iman
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

"WinPgmr-MacUser" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:438e1f49$1
@newsgroups.borland.com:
Quote
I don't believe there's any way to work with an Access .mdb database on
Linux or Mac. That dooms those 2 platforms in many organizations.
You can run CrossOffice on Linux.
--
Iman
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

"Iman L Crawford" <ilcrawford.at.hotmail.dot.com>
Quote
Disagree. MS killed the competition by bundling an office suite and
pricing it so low no one else could make any money. There was nothing
better in Access than what was in Paradox/DB/Foxpro at the time.
Are you saying that MS Office is too cheap?
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

"Ender" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:43904106
@newsgroups.borland.com:
Quote
Are you saying that MS Office is too cheap?
No. The current prices are the result of the current lack of competition.
How old are you? I remember when WP ruled word processing, Dbase the dbs
and Lotus the spreadsheet. Then MS and Borland got into price wars and MS
released an office suite that cost about the same as buying each of the
competitors separately.
--
Iman
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Iman L Crawford <ilcrawford.at.hotmail.dot.com>wrote in
Quote
How old are you?
my apologies, that wasn't meant as an insult. I was really curious to how
long you have been in the industry.
--
Iman