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How increase Kylix sales


2003-09-30 05:19:54 AM
kylix0
Get rid of CLX and the QT library. Replace with true port of VCL. Make
Kylix and Delphi compatible. We should make a QC issue for this and all
vote on it. I curious what others thoughts are on this. It seems until the
above has been accomplished how can the marketability of Kylix be truly
assessed?
I tried to market a Kylix app. It was great and useful but who wants to use
a program that has the bulky libqt dependency? That is what the bottom line
is here.
 
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:19:54 -0400, Jeff Undercash wrote:
Quote
Get rid of CLX and the QT library. Replace with true port of VCL. Make
Kylix and Delphi compatible. We should make a QC issue for this and all
vote on it. I curious what others thoughts are on this. It seems until the
above has been accomplished how can the marketability of Kylix be truly
assessed?

I tried to market a Kylix app. It was great and useful but who wants to use
a program that has the bulky libqt dependency? That is what the bottom line
is here.
Umm. You _need_ a widget set (or do you want to implement it all in xlib,
effectively creating a new one?!)
johannes
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

Jeff Undercash wrote:
Quote
I tried to market a Kylix app. It was great and useful but who wants
to use a program that has the bulky libqt dependency?
People that want to be able to develop cross-platform GUI apps easily?
I'd be interested to hear what other ways it could be done. My first thought
is that Borland (or someone else) would write a widget library that mimics
the Win32 controls and where the code can be linked in with the app. This of
course means an up-front development cost for a plethora of controls. The
major concern would be the ROI.
--
Dave Nottage (TeamB)
 

{smallsort}

Re:How increase Kylix sales

Dave Nottage (TeamB) wrote:
Quote
My first thought is that Borland (or someone else) would write a widget library
that mimics the Win32 controls and where the code can be linked in with the
app.
The XPde project has such components. But as a Kylix project the underlaying widget set is
still Qt.
--
Regards
Andreas Hausladen
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

"Jeff Undercash" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
How to increase Kylix sales?
Address the underlying problem --- the lack of a significant Linux desktop
presence and the reasons why.
Until this is addressed, tweaking Kylix itself won't make much difference.
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

Quote
People that want to be able to develop cross-platform GUI apps easily?

I'd be interested to hear what other ways it could be done.
Delphi 8 will be able to create CIL code instead of Windows exes. So is
C# Builder, MS C# and MS Basic .NET.
In theory (pure) CIL assemblies are platform independent and can be used
on Windows and (via Mono or .GNU) on (even non Intel) Linux. Of course
programmer can include unmanaged (platform dependent code) as can
malicious compilers.
-Michael
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

Quote
>How to increase Kylix sales?

Address the underlying problem --- the lack of a significant Linux desktop
presence and the reasons why.

The cause is lack of application software
The cause is lack of easy to use development tools
....
<g>
-Michael
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

Michael Schnell wrote:
Quote
The cause is lack of application software

The cause is lack of easy to use development tools
The cause is lack of application software --v
^--The cause is lack of easy to use development tools
--
.. Phoenix
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

Dave Nottage (TeamB) wrote:
Quote
People that want to be able to develop cross-platform GUI apps easily?

I'd be interested to hear what other ways it could be done. My first
thought is that Borland (or someone else) would write a widget
library that mimics the Win32 controls
This is wrong (IMHO!)
Applications developed like this almost always only look good on one
platform - and they look downright weird on the other platforms they
try to support.
The Delphi/Kylix IDE is a classic example of this. It looks great on
Windows, but horrible on Linux. Oh, sure, it works mostly OK on Linux,
but it doesn't look native. It's got that 'ported' feel to it.
The only proper way to develop a cross-platform GUI app is to
religously separate the GUI from the logic, then recreate the GUI for
each platform using the platforms native controls (and mindset etc.).
So I'd prefer Borland to concentrate on writing tools to help automate
this 'recreating the GUI' step, rather than to waste time writing (for
instance) a TTreeView that behaves identically on all platforms.
--
Colin - using XanaNews HTTP Transport
e-mail : XXXX@XXXXX.COM
web: www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/delphi.htm
Posted with XanaNews 1.16.1.1
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

On 09/30/03 20:51 +0900, Colin Wilson wrote:
Quote
Dave Nottage (TeamB) wrote:

>People that want to be able to develop cross-platform GUI apps easily?
>
>I'd be interested to hear what other ways it could be done. My first
>thought is that Borland (or someone else) would write a widget
>library that mimics the Win32 controls

This is wrong (IMHO!)
It's wrong in many people's opinion. That said ...
Quote
Applications developed like this almost always only look good on one
platform - and they look downright weird on the other platforms they
try to support.
Have you ever run a Gnome app on KDE? How does that Gnome app
behave? Of course, it uses Gnome widgets, not KDE widgets. Your
observation, while valid, is not a new story for anybody in
Linux. Most of us live day-to-day with apps that use different
widget sets. Have Netscape, gFTP, KOffice, Emacs, xv and Kylix up
and you have no less than 6 different widget implementations.
Depending on one's point of view, it's either amusing or irritating.
Quote
The Delphi/Kylix IDE is a classic example of this. It looks great on
Windows, but horrible on Linux. Oh, sure, it works mostly OK on Linux,
but it doesn't look native. It's got that 'ported' feel to it.
Very few Linux apps /don't/ have a ported feel. As soon as you're
running an app that has cross-platform support, you're looking at
building/using a common widget set for all of 'em.
Quote
The only proper way to develop a cross-platform GUI app is to
religously separate the GUI from the logic, then recreate the GUI for
each platform using the platforms native controls (and mindset etc.).
Okay, so which platform-native controls would you like to use?
KDE and Gnome have their own ideas about widget sets. In X, apps
are free to build their own or forego them as they see fit. Would
you like to use Motif, Lesstif, QT, etc., etc.
Quote
So I'd prefer Borland to concentrate on writing tools to help automate
this 'recreating the GUI' step, rather than to waste time writing (for
instance) a TTreeView that behaves identically on all platforms.
Unless you're writing an app where you control the execution
environment, there's no way you're going to know which widget set
is the one to use for your users. Besides which, what you're
describing no longer sounds like a RAD environment. If you have
to slave over which libs/widgets to go with, the whole game has
changed.
trane
--
//------------------------------------------------------------
// Trane Francks XXXX@XXXXX.COM Tokyo, Japan
// Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.
// mp3.com/trane_francks/
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

"Colin Wilson" wrote:
Quote
This is wrong (IMHO!)

Applications developed like this almost always only look good on one
platform - and they look downright weird on the other platforms they
try to support.

There are two ways to look at this problem. You are a user and you always
want to look your application the same, no matter on what platform you are.
This counts for organisations where eg both Linux and Windows boxes are
used.
The other way is, wich you and I prefer, an application should always look
like a native application, that is they look different on different
platforms.
Quote
The Delphi/Kylix IDE is a classic example of this. It looks great on
Windows, but horrible on Linux. Oh, sure, it works mostly OK on Linux,
but it doesn't look native. It's got that 'ported' feel to it.

The only proper way to develop a cross-platform GUI app is to
religously separate the GUI from the logic, then recreate the GUI for
each platform using the platforms native controls (and mindset etc.).
This counts also when developing for one platform.
Quote

So I'd prefer Borland to concentrate on writing tools to help automate
this 'recreating the GUI' step, rather than to waste time writing (for
instance) a TTreeView that behaves identically on all platforms.

A framework can be build by wrapping all the native platform widgets in a
cross-platform interface. The resulting interface looks like a native one.
Due to the move of Borland with CBX i'm looking at wxWndows wich happen to
do that. wxWindows apps look like native Windows apps on Windows. (I haven't
tried on other platforms yet, but I suppose they look native there too).
They have a sophisticated system of positioning widgets on the forms
preventing sizing-problems on different platforms. Look at this snippet from
the wxWindows help:
<wxWindows help>
What makes sizers so well fitted for use in wxWindows is the fact that every
control reports its own minimal size and the algorithm can handle
differences in font sizes or different window (dialog item) sizes on
different platforms without problems. If e.g. the standard font as well as
the overall design of Motif widgets requires more space than on Windows, the
initial dialog size will automatically be bigger on Motif than on Windows.
<\wxWindows help>
You don't position and size widgets using absolute coordinates, but you
position relative to each other where widgets can grow and shrink on
different platforms.
Peter
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

"Michael Schnell" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
The cause is lack of application software
Is this the cause ... or is it the effect of an operating environment that
is fragmented and in a state of continuous flux.
There are lots of reasons for the lack of Linux desktop development and
tools aren't anywhere near the top. Tweaking the tools won't make much
difference IMO.
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

have you heard of the Lazurus Project?
It does just that, but seems to have little suport.
Why don't you check it out?
"Jeff Undercash" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Get rid of CLX and the QT library. Replace with true port of VCL. Make
Kylix and Delphi compatible. We should make a QC issue for this and all
vote on it. I curious what others thoughts are on this. It seems until
the
above has been accomplished how can the marketability of Kylix be truly
assessed?

I tried to market a Kylix app. It was great and useful but who wants to
use
a program that has the bulky libqt dependency? That is what the bottom
line
is here.



 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

Michael Schnell wrote:
Quote
Delphi 8 will be able to create CIL code..
No, Delphi for .NET will :-P
Quote
In theory (pure) CIL assemblies are platform independent and can be
used on Windows and (via Mono or .GNU) on (even non Intel) Linux.
Since I was already aware of that, I meant a native executable solution <g>
--
Dave Nottage (TeamB)
 

Re:How increase Kylix sales

Colin Wilson wrote:
Quote
The only proper way to develop a cross-platform GUI app is to
religously separate the GUI from the logic, then recreate the GUI for
each platform using the platforms native controls (and mindset etc.).
So I'd prefer Borland to concentrate on writing tools to help automate
this 'recreating the GUI' step, rather than to waste time writing (for
instance) a TTreeView that behaves identically on all platforms.
If you'd like to point me to Win32 equivalents that are supplied with Linux
(ie not with specific widget sets such as GTK), I'd be interested. While
you're at it, find me some hens teeth. They'll probably be in the same
place.
--
Dave Nottage (TeamB)