Board index » kylix » Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix


2005-11-14 05:01:01 PM
kylix1
Hi all,
as i read in news, Borland has a new boss now.
What i saw in the past:
The heart of Borland was not in the middle of
theire strategy. You see it on Borland's homepage.
You have to search to find Delphi and c++ and so on.
In the middle are Tools and UML and and ..., but the most
of developers doesn't use this tools, and not need it.
A very bad strategy, that comes i think from the
old boss.
And this is one of the reasons, Borland makes loss.
They forgott, for what Borland stands in the developing.
And they forgott the big and enthusiasm delphi developer community, that
reaches with Delph5 i think the maximum.
Without Delphi, we would not discuss now about Borland, because
it would not exists now.
The next important thing is:
Delphi is too expensive !!!
The most of the delphi community developers have to develop
db-solutions, and with internet, so they need the expensive
enterprise or architect, but they cannot buy it.
The next thing is, that MS seems to be has
a great influence to Borland company,
To push .NET they have no interest for Kylix.
AND THEY KNOW EXATLY WHAT A GREAT DANGEROUS Delphi for Linux
was.
After Borland has decided to stop Kylix and only
make .NET (and in reality they did so, we can see it)
they did a big failure. A very big one.
A Borland distrubutor near me says: If you want to
develop with .NET it would be better to use MS Visual Studio,
and this was a honest answer, because its true.
Borland did no really way, to can update your delphi sourcecode
to .NET with Delphi .net versions. Simple projects yes, but not more.
The big advantage from delphi was: cheap, a lot of 3.rd party
components. And if you used this: forgott to update to .net.
So what reasons exists to use Delphi 2005 and not Visual Studio 2005?
Price: no big difference
Functionality: with MS you have the full and early
to stay on pascal? why? c# is the language for next future on windows.
I know, it was absoluty necessary to make Delphi .NET ready too.
But to stop Delphi for LINUX, what would be the future 2.nd big business
for Borland, was a fatal error.
As i now from a lot of middle and also bigger customers,
they have no investment plans to go to the next windows
OS with .NET, they try to change to UNIX and also LINUX.
The damn thing is, that only few software developing companies
support LINUX. And this could be dramatically altered, if Delphi for
Linux is on live and very good supported and pushed.
This is the place where Boland can transport a lot fo windows developers
to Linux, with Delphi for Linux (Kylix). IBM, SUN and others should help
Borland in this way also all big Linux distributors, like Red Head,
SUSE, Manrdrake and others ...
The only way, to be a concurrent on Microsoft in .NET, Borland can
forgett i think. They have to do it, okay, but they should also
try to give Borland a 2nd. way: Delphi for Linux.
Delphi with .net, pascal, c#, AND LINUX support, that would be
a reason to stay with Delphi, and not take MS Visual Studio, where
the LINUX part i mean is the only one for this.
AND its not necessary that you can compile the same source with .net or
linux, thats nonsense.
Delphi .net, and Delphi Linux in one bundle, thats would be the goal!!!!
I wish all a good future
best regards
Gerhard
 
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

prom < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
Hi all,
Hi. Welcome to the "not very happy Borland customers" group.
Good post. Some of us around these newsgroups have seen the same issues with Borland, their products and their maket strategy.
Just to complement your post, here are my experiences:
Despite GNU/Linux popularity, some of us that just work with Delphi (Borland's Object Pascal for Windows) have seen the same problems.
For example, I work in a company that used Delphi and
MS SQL Server 6.5. about 3 years ago.
We request a Borland certified course from
a local representative.
And they where more interested
on tell us how good Interbase was,
instead of showing us,
how to connect to M$ SQL Server with Delphi.
They just didn't get that:
MY EMPLOYER ALREADY HAD BOUGHT A M$ SQL SERVER
LICENSE THAT WASN'T GOING TO CHANGE TO INTERBASE...
So, wherever if M$ is too strong in the market,
Borland (and its representantives) itself doesn't
seem to get it...
I sent an email about 1 year ago, to a Borland customer service email, asking if I bought Borland Visual Studio
(with both Delphi and Kylix)
could I upgrade later to Delphi 2005, OR just for get about it,
and buy Delphi 2005 directly, and got no reply...
Wonder, why Im answering this in a KYLYX NEWSGROUPS ?
'cause I read them, and im interested in them....
Good Luck, to you, too.
mramirez /at/ star /minus/ dev /dot/ com
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

I understand your frustration, but consider the following:
Quote
as i read in news, Borland has a new boss now.
Who recently served on the Board of Directors for TrollTech.
Time will tell, but he just may be an advocate for doing something
to revive Kylix. We can hope...
Quote
The heart of Borland was not in the middle of
theire strategy. You see it on Borland's homepage.
You have to search to find Delphi and c++ and so on.
Yes, like it or not, Borland's homepage is geared toward IT managers
and bosses. I suggest you visit the Borland Developer Network,
bdn.borland.com where the focus is on developers and developer
products.
Rick Carter
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group
--- posted by geoForum on delphi.newswhat.com
 

{smallsort}

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Rick Carter wrote:
Quote
where the focus is on developers and developer
products.
It has been before Inprise that the focus
was on developers.
Dropping Kylix w/o a migration path or w/o
liberating FreeCLX was typical anti-developer.
regards Den Jean
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

The reality is how you discribe it. I would also not mind if 'Kylix'
becomes a plugin to Eclipse, if possible, however there are some
alternative strategies for Borland to explore. They can always OSS the
IDE and other core libraries and sell plugin modules, the compiler for
commercial apps, QT licenses, etc. Hopefully the new CEO has more vision
in this regard!
- as you said the Delphi language is not currently supported in
Eclipse, so there could still be a small chance for the Borland
Delphi/Kylix IDE to succeed..
Siegs
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Quote
Borland's best bet is to move C++ Builder and Delphi to Eclipse (IMHO) as
soon as possible.
Please don't! I tried to use Eclipse - IIRC some beta of version 3 -
together with www.blackdown.org/ (as it was the only JRE to
support AMD64 at that time) for C development on my Linux PC. To make a
longer story short: In the end I reverted to KWrite, as Eclipse wasn't
fast enough when dealing with large source files.
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

SiegfriedN wrote:
Quote
as you said the Delphi language is not currently
supported in Eclipse
And why is that so? An OSS C++ or Java programmer will never write a
Delphi plugin for Eclipse because he does not need it. And Delphi
developers seem to be happy with the Delphi/BDS IDE. Even the Lazarus
project looks like the Delphi IDE. There are also more OSS C++ and Java
that OSS Delphi programmers. Delphi is mostly used for commecial
applications.
--
Regards,
Andreas Hausladen
(www.kylix-patch.de.vu - unofficial Kylix 3 patches)
(andy.jgknet.de/blog)
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

On 2005-11-17, Paul Nichols (TeamB) < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
>What i saw in the past:
>
>The heart of Borland was not in the middle of
>theire strategy. You see it on Borland's homepage.
>You have to search to find Delphi and c++ and so on.
>In the middle are Tools and UML and and ..., but the

I can certainly understand the frustration, but lets face it, unless Borland
changes its business direction and strategy, they cannot survive. The
plethora of Open source and free IDEs have made the IDE market a commodity,
not a money maker.
Personally I'd rather blame Microsoft giving away free tools at each training
event, and systematically seeming to price VS at 3/4 of the Borland price.
I think that eats _way_ more into Borland's bottomline than the Eclipse hype.
Quote
Eclipse IDE, for instance, has support for Java, C++, Cobol, C#, and others.
Eclipse is getting to be a great IDE and the number of open and commercial
plugins are starting to rival Borland's JBuilder. That is why Borland is
moving JBuilder to Eclipse.
There is simply no way to compete with a free IDE, free tools and plugins,
coupled with most commercial tool makers consolidating on the Eclipse
platform.
True. But the Java market always has been highly competitive (Symantec, Sun,
the OSS community and IBM all having tools, often for free). The other
products suffer less from this.
Maybe JBuilder actually suffered more from the realisation that
Java-on-the-desktop is effectively dead than from Eclipse. Moreover, compared
to Delphi, JBuilder was, euh, clunky.
Quote
So Delphi is the only programming language not represented (and MS' VB) in
the open or free IDE market.
lazarus.freepascal.org
Quote
This is not a good bet for Borland to gamble their entire future on, IMHO.
Yes, Delphi is a great language, yes the IDE is very good as well. But it
will become even more a niche market when competing with the free and/or
open source IDEs, compilers, and tools. Borland's best bet is to move C++
Builder and Delphi to Eclipse (IMHO) as soon as possible. With a solid
Delphi and BCB available for Eclipse, it may help Delphi and BCB find new
converts.
I'd drop Delphi if they did that. I'm already not that happy with the new
.NET IDE, but Eclipse would be even worse. I prefer the short
compilation/run/debug cycles of D6/D7, and the very effective GUI use, where
you develop form and code together.
Quote
Please understand, that I have been a Delphi and BCB user (as well as Kylix)
since Delphi, BCB, and Kylix 1. I did stop with Delphi at version 5
Enterprise, since most of my development since then has been Java (primarily
used JB since then).
Funny, I came back from JBuilder to Delphi.
Quote
However, I see why Borland is shifting direction and why they have to.
Me also. But I think that is more Microsofts threat to their core windows
market than an hyped, inhomogenous Eclipse. At least from my (Delphi)
perspective.
Quote
There is really no future attempting to compete in this new IDE
environment. You cannot succeed as proprietary any more (MS is even losing
marketshare because of their proprietary ways), making and selling
expensive IDEs.
IMHO on the tools front, MS is stronger than ever. Both in quality as in
numbers. Of course you don't have to like MS or windows (I don't
particularly either), but that fact, and its {*word*108} overall is there.
Quote
They just will not continue to sell, when the free tools are approaching
commercial quality
Name me one. IMHO Netbeans is a dog, Eclipse is a dog, compared to both VS
and Delphi, and even, clunky JBuilder.
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Willi Krenn wrote:
Quote
>Borland's best bet is to move C++ Builder and Delphi to Eclipse
>(IMHO) as soon as possible.

Please don't! I tried to use Eclipse - IIRC some beta of version 3 -
together with www.blackdown.org/ (as it was the only JRE to
support AMD64 at that time) for C development on my Linux PC. To make
a longer story short: In the end I reverted to KWrite, as Eclipse
wasn't fast enough when dealing with large source files.
Why is it people always deride a product based on their experiences
either of at least 2 generation old product, or on a beta release
which is liable to be broken and have debugging code?
Willi, if you want to give an opinion, then at least give it on a
recent released product.
B
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Why is it people can not put their real name in their newsreader config?
Quote
Why is it people always deride a product based on their experiences
either of at least 2 generation old product, or on a beta release
which is liable to be broken and have debugging code?
Well, firstly the blackdown port itself was a beta, scondly the Eclipse
IDE was Milestone 8 (from a total of 9 or so) and both were the only
options to get some nice (free) IDE working on AMD64 at that time.
(Tried KDevelop, but that did not work too well either, esp. as it had
no de{*word*81} support or so)
I highly doubt that the included debug code made the Eclipse editor
significantly slower and I did not say that it was broken!
Quote
Willi, if you want to give an opinion, then at least give it on a
recent released product.
I clearly stated that I came to my conclusions using a beta version of
Eclipse. Each programmer reading this newsgroup will know what that
means and will have enough brains to take it with a grain of salt. That
being said, I seriously doubt I'd change my mind even when having seen
the lastest version. But if you tell me that Eclipse 3.? is (almost) as
fast as e.g. KWrite in handling of .c files with>10 000 lines then
I'll give it a try the next time.
Me wonders if you stick to your own requirements on every occasion you
give your opinion. Already preordered D2006? ;-)
Willi
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

"prom" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Hi all,

as i read in news, Borland has a new boss now.

What i saw in the past:

The heart of Borland was not in the middle of
theire strategy. You see it on Borland's homepage.
You have to search to find Delphi and c++ and so on.
In the middle are Tools and UML and and ..., but the
I can certainly understand the frustration, but lets face it, unless Borland
changes its business direction and strategy, they cannot survive. The
plethora of Open source and free IDEs have made the IDE market a commodity,
not a money maker.
Eclipse IDE, for instance, has support for Java, C++, Cobol, C#, and others.
Eclipse is getting to be a great IDE and the number of open and commercial
plugins are starting to rival Borland's JBuilder. That is why Borland is
moving JBuilder to Eclipse.
There is simply no way to compete with a free IDE, free tools and plugins,
coupled with most commercial tool makers consolidating on the Eclipse
platform.
NetBeans is another good Java IDE, that also supports C++. I have played
with the 5.0 Beta and it looks quite promising.
Sun is now giving away their Sun Studio (based on Net Beans), which includes
many of the options found in tools like JBuilder and Idea. It can support
Fortran, C++, as well as Java.
Oracle is now giving away Oracle JDeveloper. It too, is quite good.
So Delphi is the only programming language not represented (and MS' VB) in
the open or free IDE market. This is not a good bet for Borland to gamble
their entire future on, IMHO. Yes, Delphi is a great language, yes the IDE
is very good as well. But it will become even more a niche market when
competing with the free and/or open source IDEs, compilers, and tools.
Borland's best bet is to move C++ Builder and Delphi to Eclipse (IMHO) as
soon as possible. With a solid Delphi and BCB available for Eclipse, it may
help Delphi and BCB find new converts.
Please understand, that I have been a Delphi and BCB user (as well as Kylix)
since Delphi, BCB, and Kylix 1. I did stop with Delphi at version 5
Enterprise, since most of my development since then has been Java (primarily
used JB since then).
However, I see why Borland is shifting direction and why they have to. There
is really no future attempting to compete in this new IDE environment. You
cannot succeed as proprietary any more (MS is even losing marketshare
because of their proprietary ways), making and selling expensive IDEs. They
just will not continue to sell, when the free tools are approaching
commercial quality. You have to focus on where there are holes in the
industry. Plugins are one area where there can be commercial success for
popular IDEs, as can offering an ALM strategy. Eventually, even these may
become commodities, but right now, they are an open venture.
So we may all lament the loss of Borland's direction and focus toward total
IDE and compiler innovation as their primary focus, but we have to
understand that Borland is a business. As such, they have to make money.
Yes, some dollars can still be made, but long term it is not a bright and
rosey scenario (again, IMHO only). If IDE and compiler based tools offered
financial landfalls, you can bet Oracle, Sun, nor IBM would be giving their
IDEs away.
Note: This is my opinion only and has no reflection on Borland's stated nor
intended strategies.
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

< XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Willi Krenn wrote:

>>Borland's best bet is to move C++ Builder and Delphi to Eclipse
>>(IMHO) as soon as possible.
>
>Please don't! I tried to use Eclipse - IIRC some beta of version 3 -
>together with www.blackdown.org/ (as it was the only JRE to
>support AMD64 at that time) for C development on my Linux PC. To make
>a longer story short: In the end I reverted to KWrite, as Eclipse
>wasn't fast enough when dealing with large source files.

Why is it people always deride a product based on their experiences
either of at least 2 generation old product, or on a beta release
which is liable to be broken and have debugging code?
Because people want to see the state-of-the art and that first impression is
critical. With busy schedules and the array of options out there to
download and evaluate, products typically only get one chance.
I'm not saying it's fair, but it's common.
Cheers,
Rob
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Quote
Personally I'd rather blame Microsoft giving away free tools at each
training
event, and systematically seeming to price VS at 3/4 of the Borland price.
Don't you mean "credit" Microsoft rather than "blame"?
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

On 2005-11-24, Robby Tanner < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote

>Personally I'd rather blame Microsoft giving away free tools at each
>training
>event, and systematically seeming to price VS at 3/4 of the Borland price.

Don't you mean "credit" Microsoft rather than "blame"?
No. Exactly 3/4 relative to another product means the products price is
set/fixed, not a result of costs.
If you think that Microsoft and Borland really "compete" in the tools arena,
and the price of Microsofts tools reflects the costs that Microsoft had
developing them, then you are _seriously_ naieve :-)
Microsoft IMHO intends to kill Borland, at least as bulk (off-the-shelf,
shrink wrapped) development tools vendor. Borland knows that, because
otherwise Borland could continue as off-the-shelf tools developer, and
didn't have to put focus on ALM.
 

Re:Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Quote
Because people want to see the state-of-the art and that first impression is
critical. With busy schedules and the array of options out there to
download and evaluate, products typically only get one chance.

I'm not saying it's fair, but it's common.

Interesting psychological issue !
Maybe that is why open source software is somewhat doomed. Everybody can
see the program before it's ready.
-Michael