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Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix


2005-12-04 01:18:20 AM
kylix2
Quote
"WinPgmr-MacUser" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in
news:438e200f$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM :

>I think this shows how difficult it is to create a program like
>Access. MS really put some effort into this, killing off both Paradox
>and dBASE in one blow in the process.

Disagree. MS killed the competition by bundling an office suite and
pricing it so low no one else could make any money. There was nothing
better in Access than what was in Paradox/DB/Foxpro at the time.

That's a superficial analysis, blaming it on pricing. You must not have
actually tried to program in these products or you wouldn't say that
Paradox, etc. were as good as Access.
Microsoft did two revolutionary things with Access which may seem obvious
today but weren't a dozen years ago:
(1) Took a page from Apple's emphasis on every file being a "document" and
introduced the .mdb file format. This is a single file containing all
tables, forms, reports, queries, and code. Compare that to the "industry
standard" approach at the time used by Paradox, dBASE and FoxPro, where a
database was the same as a folder, which could contain dozens or even
hundreds of separate files that could easily get out of synch.
Well, as with many revolutionary ideas, programmers and users didn't give
a rat's ass about the industry standard. The concept of a single file
containing everything about a database was too powerful, something that
could easily be backed up, sent as an attachment with e-mail, easily moved
to a different computer, etc.
OpenOffice.org's Base borrows the same concept. Its .odb file format is
really a zip file containing all the many separate files that make up the
database.
Think about what a word processor would be like if it took the same
industry standard approach as those old-fashioned databases did: dozens of
separate files for one document. Who would put up with that for even a minute?
The .mdb file format helped confirm Apple's breakthrough approach to the
user interface, where the normal context is object-action (i.e.,
"document-centric") rather than action-object (pick a menu command, then
pick the file that the command will act on).
(2) Introduced a standard scripting language in what eventually became
VBA. What did Borland offer with Paradox? PAL, as though we really needed
yet another non-standard scripting language. Borland already had a
terrific language - it was called Turbo Pascal. Why they didn't use the
syntax of Pascal in Paradox is one of those defining moments in history.
Presumably the geniuses who decided on PAL are working elsewhere now.
--- posted by geoForum on delphi.newswhat.com
 
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

"Iman L Crawford" <ilcrawford.at.hotmail.dot.com>
Quote
How old are you? I remember when WP ruled word processing, Dbase the dbs
and Lotus the spreadsheet. Then MS and Borland got into price wars and MS
released an office suite that cost about the same as buying each of the
competitors separately.
I'm not so old. I'm from 1975, and from 1991 in the IT world. However i
remeber word perfect. I can't remeber much, but i tried them both. Office
was better in my opinion. The main problem for me with WP was displaying and
printing cyrillic letters. It was big problem to print document in the
russian. So for us there was simple choice - to print or not to print in
russian.
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

"WinPgmr-MacUser" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:4391d4d1
@newsgroups.borland.com:
Quote
That's a superficial analysis, blaming it on pricing. You must not have
actually tried to program in these products or you wouldn't say that
Paradox, etc. were as good as Access.
I was involved in purchasing decisions and I'm going back to DOS. Was
there even an Access version for DOS? No one looked at MS office tools
until win 3.1x and Win 95. I should also note the MS beat everyone to the
market with usable window versions of their software. Lotus/WP/DBase all
had {*word*99}py first versions for windows. This fact, combined with the price
wars killed off any competition MS had.
--
Iman
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

"Ender" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:4393d6f7
@newsgroups.borland.com:
Quote
The main problem for me with WP was displaying and
printing cyrillic letters. It was big problem to print document in the
russian. So for us there was simple choice - to print or not to print in
russian.
Understood. WP was the predominate word processor in the US until windows
was released, the same for Lotus and DBase. With the release of a usable
version of windows (3.1x) and the difficulty of getting windows software
written at the time. MS was able to beat everyone to the windows market
and they priced things very aggresively.
--
Iman
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Quote
Understood. WP was the predominate word processor in the US until windows
was released, the same for Lotus and DBase. With the release of a usable
version of windows (3.1x) and the difficulty of getting windows software
written at the time. MS was able to beat everyone to the windows market
and they priced things very aggresively.
And, you remember? When everyone copy-protected their software, MS removed
any protection, and used
the piracy to pollute the .doc and .xls formats everywhere.
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Quote
>Understood. WP was the predominate word processor in the US until
>windows
>was released, the same for Lotus and DBase. With the release of a
>usable
>version of windows (3.1x) and the difficulty of getting windows software
>written at the time. MS was able to beat everyone to the windows market
>and they priced things very aggresively.
"TProgrammer" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >
And, you remember? When everyone copy-protected their software, MS removed
any protection, and used
the piracy to pollute the .doc and .xls formats everywhere.
It is their full rights do not to install copy-protection into their
software.
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Quote
It is their full rights do not to install copy-protection into their
software.
Definitely.
Was not my point.
Was only an observation of a clever move from MS side at that time.
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

"TProgrammer" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in
Quote
And, you remember? When everyone copy-protected their software, MS
removed any protection, and used
the piracy to pollute the .doc and .xls formats everywhere.
I remember. Our staff had a showdown with the IT Director over not buying
a copy for every pc.
--
Iman
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Iman L Crawford wrote:
Quote
"Ender" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:43904106
@newsgroups.borland.com:

>Are you saying that MS Office is too cheap?


No. The current prices are the result of the current lack of competition.

How old are you? I remember when WP ruled word processing, Dbase the dbs
and Lotus the spreadsheet. Then MS and Borland got into price wars and MS
released an office suite that cost about the same as buying each of the
competitors separately.

At that time I bought MS Word 5.5 for DOS, it was practically same as MS
Word 5.0 functionality wise, but had menus and shortcuts rearanged in
windows style. That alone was my main motive as a step into direction of
future. I really hated how every productivity app had it's own
philosophy. I must admit that Windows were more important to me because
of standard user interface than because of graphical UI.
Sadly, today we are back to each for himself in that respect, with crazy
coloured buttons and toolbars, no menus and everything.
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Ender wrote:
Quote
It is their full rights do not to install copy-protection into their
software.
But it is not their right to use abusive and monopolistic tactics.
Dumping (predatory pricing) and Truste (attempt to create a monopoly)
are *crimes*. Bussinessmen doing does practices should go to jail.
Remember Exxon? They were doing ilegal bussiness practices (not those
two thought), and went to jail.
And so Microsoft guys should go ^_^ if they didn't have so expensive
lawyers. They are doing much worse then Exxon did, they have being sued
many times by different governaments.
Going back to the copy-protection they incentivate Piracy as a way to
keep their monopoly. They act on very bad faith on doing so. They don't
care that they are incentivating a form of crime, they just see more
money coming in.
Felipe
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

prom wrote:
Quote
Yes i tried Lazarus, nice project, and i wish the developers the best,
but: i could not transfer only one of a lot of projects to lazarus, why?
I need: Network programming, fast stabile DB-connections (p.e. to
oracle, MS-SQL, Firebird)
Many networking components and db components have being released this
year fo Lazarus.
A well prepared program can compile on both Lazarus and Delphi. I do
this. This allows me to have the smaller executables and stability of
Delphi on Windows and yet be able to compile with Lazarus on Linux. And
if a source compiles for Lazarus on Linux it also compiles without
changes for Mac OS X, because it will link both to gtk.
Why don't you enclosure the parts witch are not ready on Lazarus with a
{$IFNDEF FPC}
Quote
, need office automatisation, SMTP-Relays,
embedded Flash, AcrobatReader, and, and ... (no comment)
Commercial applications have a lot of functions in it, and they have to
{$ENDIF}
So you can create a Linux version with database, networking, but leave
out for now the other features. They can be included in the future.
Felipe
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Quote
Ender wrote:
>It is their full rights do not to install copy-protection into their
>software.
"Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >
But it is not their right to use abusive and monopolistic tactics.

Dumping (predatory pricing)
Linux - software at no cost (or extremely low cost) is not dumping?
Quote
and Truste (attempt to create a monopoly) are *crimes*. Bussinessmen doing
does practices should go to jail. Remember Exxon? They were doing ilegal
bussiness practices (not those two thought), and went to jail.
I live in another country. I don't know what is Exxon.
Quote
And so Microsoft guys should go ^_^ if they didn't have so expensive
lawyers. They are doing much worse then Exxon did, they have being sued
many times by different governaments.
Going back to the copy-protection they incentivate Piracy as a way to keep
their monopoly. They act on very bad faith on doing so. They don't care
that they are incentivating a form of crime, they just see more money
coming in.
I think high prices on software is thing that incentivate Piracy. Let's
compare two countries with different average incomes:
Let's say software piece cost USD $200.
Country 1: $40000. $200 / $40000 = 0.5%
Country 2: $3600. $200 / $3600 = 5.6%
Do you think that people from country 2 will always buy licensed software?
Being in the country 1 easy to relax and argue how Piracy is bad. But
opinion may change in case if in country 1 cost of software piece will be
USD $2240 (exactly 5.6% from USD $40000) instead of $200. The price on
software piece on which piracy in country 2 will be significantly lesser is
about USD $18. Hey in place where i live it equal to about... 3.5 kg of
meat, or 0.5 kg of salmon roe, or 32 litre of gas, or 1.5 book of Knuth. :-)
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Iman L Crawford sighed and wrote::
Quote

How old are you? I remember when WP ruled word processing, Dbase the dbs
What about WordStar? I thought Wordstar was a hell lot more
userfriendly than WP. I LOVED Wordstar. Heck, even tried to
enter the whole US Constitution into a text file, but gave
up. :)
Then came Word 6 and of all the renditions of 6 and over, Word 6
is the BEST!(My opinion of course.) I had the best time with
this word processor. Clean. Concise. To the point.
There's just way too many bells and whistles in these new
fangled word processors.
*raises a glass* Here's to Word 6. :)
But I digress. :)
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Edmund wrote:
Quote
Then came Word 6 and of all the renditions of 6 and over, Word 6
is the BEST!(My opinion of course.) I had the best time with
this word processor. Clean. Concise. To the point.

There's just way too many bells and whistles in these new
fangled word processors.

*raises a glass* Here's to Word 6. :)
You never used a decent word processor then? Anybody miss AMI Pro, which
Microsoft copied when designing Word! It took years to get my Wife to
move to Lotus after they acquired it :(
--
Lester Caine
-----------------------------
L.S.Caine Electronic Services
Treasurer - Firebird Foundation Inc.
 

Re:Re: Borland, strategies, Microsoft, Kylix

Edmund < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:43a2929f$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM :
Quote
What about WordStar? I thought Wordstar was a hell lot more
userfriendly than WP.
I just had to support a bunch of secretaries. They all used WP. The only
editing I did was code editing.
--
Iman