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Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop


2004-01-22 05:47:32 AM
kylix1
"Mike Mormando" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news:400ec364$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote

"Hilton Evans" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>
>No one is preventing stores from selling PCs with Linux
>pre installed. Walmart offers them; I have yet to see one in
>a Walmart. There are six my area. I suspect if they were a
>compelling consumer item, Walmart would dedicate shell
>space just as it dedicates space to it $29.95 microwave ovens.
Hm, one of the original antitrust complaints against M$ was exactly that,
not Linux per se, but jacking up prices if they put any other os on the pc's
they sold.
Where did I say anything about that?
Quote
M$ is still offering bounties to the smaller PC shops in this area, at
least, for names and addresses of anyone who buys
a PC with no os.
Source of your allegation? or is this just skuttlebutt?
--
Hilton Evans
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Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

"JQP" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news:400eea64$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
"Mike Mormando" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news:400ec364$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>Hm, one of the original antitrust complaints against M$ was exactly that,
>not Linux per se, but jacking up prices
>if they put any other os on the pc's they sold.

No, it had to do with the fact that MS licensed Windows to volume
manufacturers based upon the number of PCs they sold. When they were no
longer allowed to do this, they started the mandatory registration thing ---
as a way of keeping manufacturers somewhat honest as much as anything else.

>M$ is still offering bounties to the smaller PC shops in this area, at
>least, for names and addresses of anyone who buys a PC with no os.

Personally, I don't believe this for a number of reasons:

1) The smaller shops in my area don't care who you are or what you want to
buy if you pay cash.

2) The smaller shops in my area are the ones selling pirated software.
Several have been caught, convicted and gone out of business.

3) If MS paid for just names and addresses, some would sell names out of the
phone book. And they'd have to employ an army of people just to track them
all down.

4) Ok, assume they have a name and address that they paid for. Then what?
They'll need a lot more to get a search warrant to look at someone's PC.
Why spoil a good {*word*97} theory with
logic. I hope you never visit Roswell,NM. Spoilers
like you will put all the Area 57 space alien
souvenir shops out of business.
--
Hilton Evans
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Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

"Hilton Evans" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Source of your allegation? or is this just skuttlebutt?
The source was a letter and poster from M$ and the Business Software
Alliance(?) offering points if the stores would turn in names of customers
buying PC's without an OS installed. If they got so many points they could
trade them in for various prizes, grills, toys, etc.
I saw it in several of the shops around here.
Mike
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

"Mike Mormando" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote

"Hilton Evans" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
>Source of your allegation? or is this just skuttlebutt?
The source was a letter and poster from M$ and the Business Software
Alliance(?) offering points if the stores would turn in names of customers
buying PC's without an OS installed. If they got so many points they could
trade them in for various prizes, grills, toys, etc.
I saw it in several of the shops around here.
Hmm,
Seems like one of those land mines an enterprising
consumer reporter would want to run with. Trading
in customer names? Not good.
--
Hilton Evans
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www.chempensoftware.com
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Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

On 01/22/04 04:15 +0900, Pedro Pimentel wrote:
Quote
But for starting, with no windows xp preinstalled pcs, or linux
pre-installed, installing linux is the choice.
Not in all situations. Most corporations do not love operating
systems. They care about applications and what it takes to make
those applications run well. For some, that may be proprietary
combustion analysis software running on an SGI box. For others,
it might be QuickBooks on Windows. An operating systems is a
platform upon which to run applications. It is not the end-game
itself.
Linux won't cure the common cold and it is definitely not the
answer to every company's/person's computing needs.
trane
--
//------------------------------------------------------------
// Trane Francks XXXX@XXXXX.COM Tokyo, Japan
// Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.
 

Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

Andreas Prucha wrote:
Quote
"JQP" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:400d63e9$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM :

>I want to be rich, but I have not completely figured out what the best
>way to do it is<g>. But I am on the verge of ruling out Linux desktop
>software as a possible scenario<g>.

Well, most IT managers I know are unhappy with the M$-dictate and they
try to escape. There are a few circumstances which make a move a little
bit difficult at the moment.

I spoke with one yesterday, and their plan is about this:

- Migration of some servers. Desktops stay Windows for now.
- Change from MS Office to OpenOffice or StarOffice on the desktop.
- Applications which are available for Windows only will not be bought
any more.
- Rewrite of some desktop-applications to intranet-application
- Other desktop-applications are rewritten with development tools which
allow X-platform development.
- And then the slow change of the desktop.
I have been saying for years, anyone who writes their new software in a
platform specific manner is not very wise. You are purposefully, limiting
your market share.
 

Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

However, many people happy writing apps for single platform. Yes it may be
not wise, but it seems take less amount of time and money. Creating apps
only with Delphi far more efficient than creating of apps with
cross-platform Qt.
 

Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

Ender wrote:
Quote
p>I have been saying for years, anyone who writes their new software in
p>a platform specific manner is not very wise. You are purposefully,
p>limiting your market share.

However, many people happy writing apps for single platform. Yes it may be
not wise, but it seems take less amount of time and money. Creating apps
only with Delphi far more efficient than creating of apps with
cross-platform Qt.
That would be totally subjective to your skills.
I can easily create a Java app as easily as I can a Delphi one. Those versed
in QT, Athena, wxwindows, GTK+, etc. can likewise do the same. If they know
these other platforms and do not know Delphi, then you think it would any
quicker for them to do it in Delphi? I think not.
My point is and has been that we are not living in 1998, 1999, or even 2000.
Writing new applications that only run on Windows or only on Mac/Linux is a
not a good proposition. Linux is becoming far too entrenched to bet your
future only on Windows. I am not suggesting either, that you bet your
future totally on Linux either. You should write application (except in
very few cases) that run on both and can even support more, if possible. In
the recent past, this was more difficult to do. Today there is no excuse,
except that you have (a) Limited skills or learning capabilities (b) You
become a language/tool zealot. Neither make for smart business decisions.
You should read this recent Forbes article for more proof
www.forbes.com/infoimaging/free_forbes/2004/0202/092.html
 

Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

xx
 

Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

pNichols wrote:
Quote
I can easily create a Java app as easily as I can a Delphi one. Those
versed in QT, Athena, wxwindows, GTK+, etc. can likewise do the same. If
they know these other platforms and do not know Delphi, then you think it
would any quicker for them to do it in Delphi? I think not.
Yes quicker. Obviously you don't use Qt and wxWindows.
Quote
My point is and has been that we are not living in 1998, 1999, or even
2000. Writing new applications that only run on Windows or only on
Mac/Linux is a not a good proposition.
It is very vary from market niche.
 

Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

Ender wrote:
Quote
pNichols wrote:
>I can easily create a Java app as easily as I can a Delphi one. Those
>versed in QT, Athena, wxwindows, GTK+, etc. can likewise do the same. If
>they know these other platforms and do not know Delphi, then you think it
>would any quicker for them to do it in Delphi? I think not.

Yes quicker. Obviously you don't use Qt and wxWindows.

I have used QT, and have looked at wxWindows. With a GUI Builder wxWindows
is very good. But I use Java for 80% of all we do. Even with the rest
(which I have no problems with), Java is the best at xplatform, hands down.
With the advent of 1.4.2, the speed has vastly been improved.
Quote
>My point is and has been that we are not living in 1998, 1999, or even
>2000. Writing new applications that only run on Windows or only on
>Mac/Linux is a not a good proposition.

It is very vary from market niche.
OK, lets see if I can make even more plain.
Linux has more server market share than Windows and is gaining more
everyday. OK, so I am going to code only for Windows, so that I can
increase my business. Does this make any sense at all?
Linux is growing on the desktop as well. It is also growing in the
semi-computer market, like telecommunications, PDAs, Smart TV type
computers, Tivo, etc. faster in all of these areas, than anyone else,
including Windows. So, therefore I am going to code only for Windows. This
way I can ensure my future viability and marketability. Does that make any
sense at all?
Now I will give the reverse (yes I know you are an avid Redmond fan, so we
will turn it around. It is, after all, REALITY).
Windows has approx. 30% server market share. So I am going to code only for
Linux and/or Solaris, and skip Windows. Sure, this may cover 50-60% of the
server marketshare, but I am going to purposefully leave out, by my
stubborn, ill-informed fanaticism. coupled with an uneducated mindset, 30%
of the market. Does it make sense for me to avoid 30% of the market,
because I like Linux better than Windows?
On the Desktop, Windows has approx. 90% of the Desktop market as of last
reports. But I use and like Linux better and see it really growing (one of
my largest customers' customer is starting this month, switching out 15,000
desktops to Linux). So because I like Linux better, I am going to ignore
that 90% (even though it is on the decline), and code for the 10% of Linux
and Mac. Does that makes sense? Of course not.
None of the above scenarios make any sense. Now if my company was focused
only on special utilities for one OS and not the other (say I work for a
Virus software company, where sales for Linux would be nil, since viruses
are so rare, no one even worries about very much on Unix), I might not need
to put in the special effort. But that would be the exception, not the
norm. For most every consumer type or customized business application, you
had better worry about xplatform, or see your competiton beat you into the
ground in a very short period of time. It is this simple.
You may not do it, but you can bet your competition will. And they will be
expanding their business while you watch your marketshare, shrink.
 

Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

"pNichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Linux has more server market share than Windows and is gaining more
everyday.
Reference?
The latest numbers I've seen (IDC, World Wide Server Tracker) for retail
server sales show Windows to be more than 4 times that of Linux in terms of
dollars.
Here's one reference to this report:
siliconvalley.internet.com/news/article.php/3114301
Yes, Linux is growing. Yes, Unix is shrinking. Windows seems to be doing
well on the server.
Do you have any *real* numbers that show a different picture?
 

Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

In article <401119ef$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM >, XXXX@XXXXX.COM says...
Hi,
Quote
The latest numbers I've seen (IDC, World Wide Server Tracker) for retail
server sales show Windows to be more than 4 times that of Linux in terms of
dollars.
Which means little in the real world, Windows will always win in terms
of dollars.
We have 10 'development' servers, all running Linux that I installed
from a CD a burnt from a download. 5 of these servers came preinstalled
with Windows (the rest did not come with an OS), so from a 'sales'
perspective this looks like Windows = 5, Linux = 0, when in fact it is
Linux=10, Windows=0 (although we do have 5 Windows licenses{*word*154}
about).
The only real way to find out usage figures is to ask people what they
are using
Phil
 

Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

"pNichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
Quote
Ender wrote:

OK, lets see if I can make even more plain.

Linux has more server market share than Windows and is gaining more
everyday. OK, so I am going to code only for Windows, so that I can
increase my business. Does this make any sense at all?
It certainly can if 1 you own only a tiny fraction of the market
and 2 if you introduce new products.
Quote

Linux is growing on the desktop as well. It is also growing in the
semi-computer market, like telecommunications, PDAs, Smart TV type
computers, Tivo, etc. faster in all of these areas, than anyone else,
including Windows. So, therefore I am going to code only for Windows. This
way I can ensure my future viability and marketability. Does that make any
sense at all?
It can since developing for multiple platforms is more exception than
rule.
Quote

Now I will give the reverse (yes I know you are an avid Redmond fan, so we
will turn it around. It is, after all, REALITY).

Windows has approx. 30% server market share.
From a business standpoint percent market share is meanless.
Size of market is what is meaningful. If a small piece a 30% market
share of 100 million can make you rich what do you care if the
other 70% is fought over by others. It also depends on the price
and nicheness of your products.
Quote
Does it make sense for me to avoid 30% of the market,
because I like Linux better than Windows?
See above and switch numbers.
Quote
But that would be the exception, not the
norm. For most every consumer type or customized business application, you
had better worry about xplatform, or see your competiton beat you into the
ground in a very short period of time.
Nonsense. One need only spend a few minutes in a computer store
to see this is patently untrue. Plenty of people are doing find developing
solely for specific PDAs or for cell phones or for Windows or for Mac.
For solutions oriented companies, vendors often bundle the platform into
the pricey specialty product. x-platform is overrated.
--
Hilton Evans
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Re:Re: 2004 - Year of Linux Desktop

"Phil Shrimpton" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Which means little in the real world, Windows will always win in terms
of dollars.
Why?
If people are buying new servers to install Linux instead of Windows, I'd
expect the sales figures to show this in some way --- a decrease in Windows
sales if nothing else. And we are seeing just that --- but in terms of Unix
sales which are down, but not Windows.
Quote
We have 10 'development' servers, all running Linux that I installed
from a CD a burnt from a download. 5 of these servers came preinstalled
with Windows (the rest did not come with an OS), so from a 'sales'
perspective this looks like Windows = 5, Linux = 0, when in fact it is
Linux=10, Windows=0 (although we do have 5 Windows licenses{*word*154}
about).
Obviously, the data was for *new* server sales only. It never pretended to
measure conversions of old hardware.
Quote
The only real way to find out usage figures is to ask people what they
are using
Ok, let's assume you're right. If someone can state emphatically that Linux
has more marketshare than Windows, I would just like to see their survey
results.