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Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]


2004-10-23 01:05:27 AM
kylix2
Simon Kissel wrote:
Quote
Theoretically new glibc versions in future could introduce issues, but
as we have the source to Libc.pas, this is not really a problem.
I don't agree here, try:
ldd -r libxercesxsldom.so.1
(deployment issue on newer glibc's)
Quote
Besides this, personally I hope to see a Kylix compiler update sooner
or later.

>I hope Kylix will survive for the next 10 years!

Me too!
Me third.
--
Best regards
Stig Johansen
 
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

"Tom Emerson" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Greetings -- it's been a while since I've posted or checked, so forgive me
if this seems a bit naive -- last I heard was that there were "no plans
for
a new version in 2004". Since 2004 is "nearly over", I'm beginning to
wonder "how about 2005?"
FWIW, lately I've been looking at Linux/Kylix as I have a product idea that
I want to implement with this combo...however, it's not looking too
encouraging - all you need to do is to look at Borland's own website, bring
up the Kylix page and click on 'Product News' here's the link:
www.borland.com/kylix/news/index.html This is a completely dead
product - nothing 'new' since 01-Nov-02. BOTTOM LINE: If a Kylix
prospective customer brings up that page, what are they to think? I tell
you what I think - and that's I'm starting to rethink the Linux/Kylix idea
that I had!
Darian
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

On 2004-10-21, Tom Emerson < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
Greetings -- it's been a while since I've posted or checked, so forgive me
if this seems a bit naive -- last I heard was that there were "no plans for
a new version in 2004". Since 2004 is "nearly over", I'm beginning to
wonder "how about 2005?"

At the local Fry's, there is one lone "upgrade" package still on the shelf.
I was reluctant to buy it last year because of the aforementioned
announcement, and I still find myself not-quite-able to actually buy it now
because of "nagging doubt". Does Borland plan on anything (significant or
otherwise) for "Kylix" in the near future?

I know it is a vicious circle/catch-22 sort of thing, but I need some
assurance that "investing" in them by buying their products is a "wise
thing to do" ;)

As such, there are other packages out there that are likely to grab my
developmet dollar: free-pascal and Gambas (Gambas in particular for the
"rad" style of development)
Free Pascal too, but needs its RAD part Lazarus (lazarus.freepascal.org).
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

On 2004-10-22, Simon Kissel < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
>What is the opinion of the Community Project regarding using .NET on
>Linux ?

As the project consists of different people with different opinions, I can't say
that ;)

I can tell you my personal opinion, though. I don't think mono will be a real
deployment option for the forseeable future. Actually, the past has shown
that Microsoft will make pretty sure Mono will never be able to catch up.

.net on Linux would become an option the day that all Linux distributions
by default ship and install a version of Mono that is more or less feature-
complete to the Windows .net Framework in its then current version. I doubt
we'll see this soon, if ever.
Agree. And I pretty much think that only specially crafted .NET apps will be
crossplatform. Forget a simple recompile.
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

The community project is definitely active, they have already made a lot of
progress, and there are a lot of code and fixes in the works to integrate
into a CLX update. But I have to confess that there would be faster progress
if they weren't waiting on a few logistical things on the Borland side from
me. At the moment we're working night and day and weekends to finish Delphi
2005. There is a blocking Kylix Community Project detail that I have an
action item for, that will involve myself and several Delphi team members to
resolve. I believe that is slowing some progress at the moment. The team
members have been understanding and patient, which I very much appreciate,
and I promise to get it resolved as soon as possible. -m
Quote
>So what are several Borland employees doing in the Community project
>then? ;)

We don't know. Currently nothing significant was done.
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

Tom Emerson wrote:
Quote
[...] last I heard was that there were "no plans for a new version in
2004". Since 2004 is "nearly over", I'm beginning to wonder "how about
2005?"
Wow -- lots of interesting points have been brought up, but it seems most of
you missed my parenthetical remark in the subject -- what is the
word /from/ /borland/ specifically? From the replies that included some
idea of Borland's point of view, it seems the answer is "little or no
change", which is not good :(
There is also a lot of talk about something called "crosskylix", which
doesn't sound like it will be of benefit to me since I don't have any
"windows" machines handy (unless I'm missing the boat on this and it DOES
indeed run "under linux" just as it does under windows -- I had best check
that site out at some point ... ;) )
I know some might consider this blasphemous, but all I really want is
something comparable to visual-basic, but completely native to the Linux
platform [my "day job" is as a mainframe {cobol} and PC {visual basic}
programmer, which doesn't contradict what I said above: the {windows}
machines I'm using are "not mine", but rather the company's machine, hence
I really don't have a "windows" machine for my spare-time/just for fun
stuff] As most of you will attest, Kylix is/was the closest thing out
there that would fit this bill :) One "down side" to flipping between
systems and methodologies is that I keep trying to use VB components as if
they were Kylix components, and getting frustrated when things don't work
"as easily as they should"
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

Michael Swindell (Borland) wrote:
Quote
The community project is definitely active, they have already made a
lot of progress,
What progress? Few lines illustrating a progress welcome.
Michael Swindell (Borland) wrote:
Quote
and there are a lot of code and fixes in the works
to integrate into a CLX update. But I have to confess that there
would be faster progress if they weren't waiting on a few logistical
things on the Borland side from me. At the moment we're working night
and day and weekends to finish Delphi 2005. There is a blocking Kylix
Community Project detail that I have an action item for, that will
involve myself and several Delphi team members to resolve. I believe
that is slowing some progress at the moment. The team members have
been understanding and patient, which I very much appreciate, and I
promise to get it resolved as soon as possible.
It is interesting what they fixing? I browsed list of bugs listed at
sourceforge.net/tracker/
Few notices:
- almost all of them very old, dated by 2001 year, most likely was
posted for Kylix 1.
- almost all of them not assigned to anyone
- almost all of them not fixed
- no DataCLX bugreports
- no reports from QualityCentral
What version of Kylix will be used for building FreeCLX? Kylix 3
Enterprise or Kylix * Open Edition? Yes i'm expecting K3E or, at least
K3Prof as base.
As Borlanders participate in the project will be there IDE, compiler
and dbExpress fixes? How about replacing help system from Bristol
Technology, it is just too slow and buggy.
Additonally "You can become a member of the development team by
invitation only" statement. Hm-m-m-m, closed doors again. How this
related to words "Free", "Open"? One "closed community of choosen
developers" which include very busy Borlanders, instead of other
"closed community of Borland developers" which always very busy.
Isn't we (i mean all Kylix community) running into same situation just
under different title? After Delphi 2005 there will be deffinitely wave
of bugreports about D2005, there will be deffinitely other money
bringing tasks and more important that poor Kylix.
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

Ender wrote:
Quote
It is interesting what they fixing?
AFAIK they are incorporating the unofficial CLX patches. (Or at least
some of the patches Andreas created.)
Unfortunately the 'commuity' project doesn't have a public forum, so
it's really 'closed-source': I mean the regulars here from b.p.k.n
should be able to at least see what is being discussed. After all *we*
are the community and noone else. (Plus: There are not a lot of people
posting here, are there?)
Willi
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

Ender wrote:
Quote
- almost all of them not assigned to anyone
- almost all of them not fixed
We do not use them (no more details by me).
Quote
- no reports from QualityCentral
What about the unofficial VisualCLX patches. Many of them will go into
FreeCLX. Here (unvclx.sf.net/fixedbugs.html) is a list of fixed QC
items.
Quote
What version of Kylix will be used for building FreeCLX? Kylix 3
Enterprise or Kylix * Open Edition? Yes i'm expecting K3E or, at least
K3Prof as base.
It is the K3OE code base.
Quote
Additonally "You can become a member of the development team by
invitation only" statement. Hm-m-m-m, closed doors again. How this
related to words "Free", "Open"? One "closed community of choosen
developers" which include very busy Borlanders, instead of other
"closed community of Borland developers" which always very busy.
I'm not a (busy) Borlander. And maybe when all open questions are answered
we meight lift the "invitiation only". Too many cooks spoil the broth.
And I think in the initial phase it is better having a more closed project
than discussing every single issue with the whole world. It is the same as
with every open source project. First someone has an idea. And then either
he starts writing the code and publishes it in an almost stable state, or
he finds others who's ideas are the same and they start discussions when
they are 2 to 10 members. The advantage is that nobody knows the open
source project and so the number of initial members is very low.
Now take an older project where lots of people are interested in. When you
develop it completely open you have about 100 and more developers. And now
try to discuss anything.
--
Regards,
Andreas Hausladen
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

Andreas Hausladen wrote:
Quote
We do not use them (no more details by me).
So why they blinking on the page? It is plain misinformation.
Quote
>- no reports from QualityCentral
Andreas Hausladen wrote:
What about the unofficial VisualCLX patches. Many of them will go into
FreeCLX. Here (unvclx.sf.net/fixedbugs.html) is a list of
fixed QC items.
Yes. It is deffinitely good work, but a little bit "one sided". I see
it is exactly VisualCLX patches. No DataCLX at all, while database
connectivity is thing that make Kylix very important and major player
in linux development world... err... it should make...
Andreas Hausladen wrote:
Quote
It is the K3OE code base.
So this mean - no progress for Professional or Enterprise users, in
parts that don't included in K3OE. Was this question discussed with
Borlanders? What they think about their loyal customers, ones who paid
money to them.
Quote
>Additonally "You can become a member of the development team by
>invitation only" statement. Hm-m-m-m, closed doors again. How this
>related to words "Free", "Open"? One "closed community of choosen
>developers" which include very busy Borlanders, instead of other
>"closed community of Borland developers" which always very busy.
Andreas Hausladen wrote:
I'm not a (busy) Borlander.
But as M.Swindell said currently they slow down entrie process. What
makes you think that things going to change?
Quote
And maybe when all open questions are
answered we meight lift the "invitiation only". Too many cooks spoil
the broth. And I think in the initial phase it is better having a
more closed project than discussing every single issue with the whole
world. It is the same as with every open source project. First
someone has an idea. And then either he starts writing the code and
publishes it in an almost stable state, or he finds others who's
ideas are the same and they start discussions when they are 2 to 10
members. The advantage is that nobody knows the open source project
and so the number of initial members is very low. Now take an older
project where lots of people are interested in. When you develop it
completely open you have about 100 and more developers. And now try
to discuss anything.
Understood. But i'm not sure if bug need discussions. It should be
eliminated and that is main target of entrie project. At least now.
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

I know some might consider this blasphemous, but all I really want is
Quote
something comparable to visual-basic, but completely native to the Linux
platform [my "day job" is as a mainframe {cobol} and PC {visual basic}
programmer, which doesn't contradict what I said above: the {windows}
machines I'm using are "not mine", but rather the company's machine, hence
I really don't have a "windows" machine for my spare-time/just for fun
stuff] As most of you will attest, Kylix is/was the closest thing out
there that would fit this bill :) One "down side" to flipping between
systems and methodologies is that I keep trying to use VB components as if
they were Kylix components, and getting frustrated when things don't work
"as easily as they should"
Did you check out Gambas? gambas.sourceforge.net/
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

Ender wrote:
Quote
So why they blinking on the page? It is plain misinformation.
Because nobody has deleted them, yet. And maybe we have a look at them
some time later.
Quote
Yes. It is deffinitely good work, but a little bit "one sided". I see
it is exactly VisualCLX patches. No DataCLX at all, while database
connectivity is thing that make Kylix very important and major player
in linux development world... err... it should make...
I do not use DataCLX very often, and my last activity in this sector was
three or four years ago. The problem is that I cannot fix anything I do
not understood or I have not the source code (dbExpress drivers).
Quote
But i'm not sure if bug need discussions.
There are other things that must be discussed.
--
Regards,
Andreas Hausladen
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

Quote
>The community project is definitely active, they have already made a
>lot of progress,

What progress? Few lines illustrating a progress welcome.
Progress on planning which steps we should take to bring up Kylix to new
live. It's too early to report on details.
Quote
It is interesting what they fixing? I browsed list of bugs listed at
sourceforge.net/tracker/
This is the tracker of the old FreeCLX project of K1. It's not used or
monitored by us right now.
Quote
As Borlanders participate in the project will be there IDE, compiler
and dbExpress fixes? How about replacing help system from Bristol
Technology, it is just too slow and buggy.
This is pretty much the same questions as "will there be a Kylix 4",
and there is no answer yet.
Quote
Additonally "You can become a member of the development team by
invitation only" statement. Hm-m-m-m, closed doors again. How this
related to words "Free", "Open"? One "closed community of choosen
developers" which include very busy Borlanders, instead of other
"closed community of Borland developers" which always very busy.
It's quite simple: The people who are known to be actively supporting
Kylix right now have been contacted. Also if there are other people
willing to invest their time into the project, I'm pretty sure they'll
be invited in. We just don't need any "I demand this and that"-kind of
guys (which honestly you sound a bit like ;) at this stage.
Quote
Isn't we (i mean all Kylix community) running into same situation just
under different title? After Delphi 2005 there will be deffinitely wave
of bugreports about D2005, there will be deffinitely other money
bringing tasks and more important that poor Kylix.
Might be. The situation is this: Kylix wasn't the success Borland wanted
it to be. There now is a group of motivated people who are helping
a bit to get a second Chance for Kylix at Borland. This is the best you'll
get. If that's not enough for you, quit Kylix.
Simon
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

Quote
Andreas Hausladen wrote:
>I'm not a (busy) Borlander.

But as M.Swindell said currently they slow down entrie process. What
makes you think that things going to change?
It's not inherently Borland that's slowing anything down nor should our
participation or Borland "busy" schedules slow things in the future once we
have all of the licensing in place. I'm just saying that there is a
logistics item that I own, that I cannot finish at the moment. The community
team is still working on fixes and enhancements, and making progress. Once I
get this item completed, the team can let open the flood gates of their work
into the official library. They also won't be waiting on things from me.
I just didn't want people to think that the community project team wasn't
doing anything... they definitely are - and Kylix/CLX developers are going
to benefit very much from their effort.
-m
 

Re:Re: Is there a future for Kylix? [from Borland, that is...]

Quote
>As Borlanders participate in the project will be there IDE, compiler
>and dbExpress fixes? How about replacing help system from Bristol
>Technology, it is just too slow and buggy.
Simon Kissel wrote:
This is pretty much the same questions as "will there be a Kylix 4",
and there is no answer yet.
But then what Borlanders do in the FreeCLX project? Provide spiritual
guidance? When users have CLX code, they may fix everything themseves.
Of course everyone want some centralized way to submit and download
fixes, it is much better to fight with the bugs alone.
Quote
>Additonally "You can become a member of the development team by
>invitation only" statement. Hm-m-m-m, closed doors again. How this
>related to words "Free", "Open"? One "closed community of choosen
>developers" which include very busy Borlanders, instead of other
>"closed community of Borland developers" which always very busy.

It's quite simple: The people who are known to be actively supporting
Kylix right now have been contacted. Also if there are other people
willing to invest their time into the project, I'm pretty sure they'll
be invited in. We just don't need any "I demand this and that"-kind of
guys (which honestly you sound a bit like ;) at this stage.
H-m-m-m... yes it may sound... JK said "vote for Kylix with your money"
and i'm voted, JK said "vote for Kylix with QC bugreports" and about 40
of 240 reports in QC belong to me. Now i want to get something in
return.
Quote
Might be. The situation is this: Kylix wasn't the success Borland
wanted it to be. There now is a group of motivated people who are
helping a bit to get a second Chance for Kylix at Borland. This is
the best you'll get. If that's not enough for you, quit Kylix.
From one hand i already quit. Before project was started. No any new
projects will be done with Kylix by me. Pure C++/Qt/GCC/OCL. And this
combination work far more productively than Kylix now. Additionally
Borland bring discredit on themselves in eyes of my bosses, so they
most likely never commit to buy anything from Borland. From other hand
we still have few Kylix-based projects that need to be maintained and
i'm interested in some source of fixes. Additionally i want to give out
some of my fixes in DataCLX area. Of course if all project will be
useful for customers who paid money for Kylix, not only to those who
use open edition.