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The (SAD) future of Kylix


2003-10-31 06:05:37 AM
kylix2
Anyone interested in the future of Kylix should get themselfs over to
the BCX news groups (if not already), particularly non-technical and
read the 'letter' that has been published by Borland on the future of
C++ in Borland and the discussion that is following.
I'm afraid, from my reading of it, that Kylix is as dead and smelly as
we all have already concluded.
VERY disappointing....
Perer Nunn.
 
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

As RandChris mentioned in an earlier topic this affects Kylix C++
developers "only".
I hope the Delphi part will not be abandoned though (despite the
total lack of official bug fixes since Kylix 1.0).
Peter Nunn wrote:
Quote
Anyone interested in the future of Kylix should get themselfs over to
the BCX news groups (if not already), particularly non-technical and
read the 'letter' that has been published by Borland on the future of
C++ in Borland and the discussion that is following.

I'm afraid, from my reading of it, that Kylix is as dead and smelly as
we all have already concluded.

VERY disappointing....

Perer Nunn.
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

On 10/31/03 09:19 +0900, BoBo wrote:
Quote
As RandChris mentioned in an earlier topic this affects Kylix C++
developers "only".
I hope the Delphi part will not be abandoned though (despite the
total lack of official bug fixes since Kylix 1.0).
Hmmmm.
<bdn.borland.com/article/0,1410,29952,00.html>
"Octane and Delphi Q&A"
Note the following two statements:
1 - What is Octane?
Octane is the code name for the next release of Borland?
DelphiTM. Octane is an integrated development environment planned
for building new Delphi applications on .NET and to assist in
migrating existing Win32 Delphi applications to .NET.
2 - Will the Octane release include Delphi 7?
Yes, the Octane release will include Delphi 7. This will provide
all Delphi developers with the highest level of compatibility
between .NET and Win32.
== end snippet ==
It would seem that Octane itself will not produce standard Win32
apps; otherwise, bundling Delphi 7 wouldn't be necessary. That
leads one to believe that Kylix 3 will remain the current
native-code Kylix and that any new versions would be geared
toward .NET.
Quote
Peter Nunn wrote:
>I'm afraid, from my reading of it, that Kylix is as dead and smelly as
>we all have already concluded.
>
>VERY disappointing....
It doesn't look very hopeful on the native-binary side of things,
to be sure. We'll see, though. I sure don't have any crystal ball
available to me.
trane
--
//------------------------------------------------------------
// Trane Francks XXXX@XXXXX.COM Tokyo, Japan
// Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.
// mp3.com/trane_francks/
 

{smallsort}

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

Quote
>I'm afraid, from my reading of it, that Kylix is as dead and smelly as
>we all have already concluded.
Borland is developing a cross-platform ".NET" Delphi IDE. The first
release "Octane" will only run in Win32 but it will be able to create
platform independent code that runs on Linux on whatever CPU (e.g. with
the "Mono" .NET Framework installed on the target machine) and
automatically supports the upcoming 64 Bit PCs decently (provided the OS
and the Framework does supports this appropriately).
Delphi always was written in Delphi and was able to compile itself, so I
suppose a future release of the Delphi IDE will run on the .NET virtual
machine and thus will be platform independent (or available in
multi-platform versions), too.
While C++ code needs to be ported to C#, which is said to be not an easy
task, Delphi code is supposed to be portable to .NET without much
hustle, as C# (created by the inventor of Delphi) is something like a
Delphi clone with C syntax.
Thus it makes sense for Borland to concentrate all its forces on Octane.
Delphi for W32 (compiled projects also runnable on WIN64) does exist in
a decent state. It stays sellable without updates for a while.
Kylix only supports IA32 Linux and with that it is considered to be
quite crippled in that world. So moving the Delphi-language Kylix users
to a future Octane version makes a lot of sense, while upgrades to Kylix
looks like having no more than short term effects.
-Michael
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

This is assuming a lot. I agree that a mono on Linux would be an
option, however, Borland has not mentioned anything about using Mono.
They have ignored most posts. I stopped all Kylix development sometime
ago. I don't even try it on newer OS implementations. It will be
difficult to trust Borland in the Linux arena again as they have
provided no direction on this.
Michael Schnell wrote:
Quote
>>I'm afraid, from my reading of it, that Kylix is as dead and smelly as
>>we all have already concluded.


Borland is developing a cross-platform ".NET" Delphi IDE. The first
release "Octane" will only run in Win32 but it will be able to create
platform independent code that runs on Linux on whatever CPU (e.g. with
the "Mono" .NET Framework installed on the target machine) and
automatically supports the upcoming 64 Bit PCs decently (provided the OS
and the Framework does supports this appropriately).

Delphi always was written in Delphi and was able to compile itself, so I
suppose a future release of the Delphi IDE will run on the .NET virtual
machine and thus will be platform independent (or available in
multi-platform versions), too.

While C++ code needs to be ported to C#, which is said to be not an easy
task, Delphi code is supposed to be portable to .NET without much
hustle, as C# (created by the inventor of Delphi) is something like a
Delphi clone with C syntax.

Thus it makes sense for Borland to concentrate all its forces on Octane.
Delphi for W32 (compiled projects also runnable on WIN64) does exist in
a decent state. It stays sellable without updates for a while.

Kylix only supports IA32 Linux and with that it is considered to be
quite crippled in that world. So moving the Delphi-language Kylix users
to a future Octane version makes a lot of sense, while upgrades to Kylix
looks like having no more than short term effects.

-Michael
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

Michael Schnell < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
[snip]
Quote
Thus it makes sense for Borland to concentrate all its forces on Octane.
[snip]
Kylix only supports IA32 Linux and with that it is considered to be
quite crippled in that world. So moving the Delphi-language Kylix users
to a future Octane version makes a lot of sense, while upgrades to Kylix
looks like having no more than short term effects.
[snip]
This is the most cool-headed, rational analysis I've read in
the past few days of monitoring the various Borland newsgroups.
I believe there is a market for Linux RAD tools. For Linux
developers, BCB for Linux was most attractive; but, as many
stated, it was not well supported. Perhaps CBX will
provide a better pathway -- at least it's not IA32 bound.
IMHO, the best hope for running Delphi code on Linux is for
MONO to succeed as a true and complete dotNet layer for Linux.
Meanwhile, I think Borland should direct its scarce resources
to other projects -- as painful as this may be for Kylix users.
Of course, Kylix 3 remains available for those who find it
useful. But IMO, this pathway for Linux RAD tools will be
eventually closed as the new pathway gains acceptance.
I expect we'll hear more from Borland on this matter within the
next few weeks. Hopefully, it will satisfy most people.
It's impossible to satisfy everyone.
kjh
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

Hi!
Miguel de Icaza., lead developer of Mono, asked for support in getting
Delphi.NET executables running on the Mono platform in a posting on the Mono
devel list back in september. See
lists.ximian.com/archives/public/mono-devel-list/2003-September/002120.html
Second mentioning of Delphi.NET was in
lists.ximian.com/archives/public/mono-winforms-list/2003-September/000482.html
" Also, by going the Wine path, we will be able to run applications
written in Delphi.NET using the Delphi GUI toolkit (hopefully with
little or no changes)."
So I guess there are some things going on behind the scenes - well, at least
I hope so. ;-)
Willi
"RandChris" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >schrieb im Newsbeitrag
Quote
This is assuming a lot. I agree that a mono on Linux would be an
option, however, Borland has not mentioned anything about using Mono.
They have ignored most posts. I stopped all Kylix development sometime
ago. I don't even try it on newer OS implementations. It will be
difficult to trust Borland in the Linux arena again as they have
provided no direction on this.

Michael Schnell wrote:

>>>I'm afraid, from my reading of it, that Kylix is as dead and smelly as
>>>we all have already concluded.
>
>
>Borland is developing a cross-platform ".NET" Delphi IDE. The first
>release "Octane" will only run in Win32 but it will be able to create
>platform independent code that runs on Linux on whatever CPU (e.g. with
>the "Mono" .NET Framework installed on the target machine) and
>automatically supports the upcoming 64 Bit PCs decently (provided the OS
>and the Framework does supports this appropriately).
>
>Delphi always was written in Delphi and was able to compile itself, so I
>suppose a future release of the Delphi IDE will run on the .NET virtual
>machine and thus will be platform independent (or available in
>multi-platform versions), too.
>
>While C++ code needs to be ported to C#, which is said to be not an easy
>task, Delphi code is supposed to be portable to .NET without much
>hustle, as C# (created by the inventor of Delphi) is something like a
>Delphi clone with C syntax.
>
>Thus it makes sense for Borland to concentrate all its forces on Octane.
>Delphi for W32 (compiled projects also runnable on WIN64) does exist in
>a decent state. It stays sellable without updates for a while.
>
>Kylix only supports IA32 Linux and with that it is considered to be
>quite crippled in that world. So moving the Delphi-language Kylix users
>to a future Octane version makes a lot of sense, while upgrades to Kylix
>looks like having no more than short term effects.
>
>-Michael

 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27839.html
"Scotts Valley, California-based Borland is investigating use of Ximian
Inc's Project Mono in Kylix, as a possible means for Windows developers to
move .NET applications to Linux. Mono is an open-source implementation of
.NET libraries and other technologies developed by Redmond, Washington-based
Microsoft Corp. "
-ioan
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

A lot of people raised their concerns regarding Mono, especially
the possible reaction of Microsoft to it down the road in the next
couple of years (IP issues, etc.).
And the total lack of communication in this regard (future/support
of Kylix, Mono, etc.) from Borland in the past years did not help
to calm down the worries either.
Ken Halliwell wrote:
Quote
Michael Schnell < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
[snip]

>Thus it makes sense for Borland to concentrate all its forces on Octane.

[snip]

>Kylix only supports IA32 Linux and with that it is considered to be
>quite crippled in that world. So moving the Delphi-language Kylix users
>to a future Octane version makes a lot of sense, while upgrades to Kylix
>looks like having no more than short term effects.

[snip]

This is the most cool-headed, rational analysis I've read in
the past few days of monitoring the various Borland newsgroups.

I believe there is a market for Linux RAD tools. For Linux
developers, BCB for Linux was most attractive; but, as many
stated, it was not well supported. Perhaps CBX will
provide a better pathway -- at least it's not IA32 bound.

IMHO, the best hope for running Delphi code on Linux is for
MONO to succeed as a true and complete dotNet layer for Linux.
Meanwhile, I think Borland should direct its scarce resources
to other projects -- as painful as this may be for Kylix users.

Of course, Kylix 3 remains available for those who find it
useful. But IMO, this pathway for Linux RAD tools will be
eventually closed as the new pathway gains acceptance.

I expect we'll hear more from Borland on this matter within the
next few weeks. Hopefully, it will satisfy most people.
It's impossible to satisfy everyone.

kjh
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

OK, as new information came in today from the people participating
in BorCon now, we can get rid of all doubts now.
Kylix will not be dealt with this year or in the next (2003 or 2004).
The earliest update or new release will be in 2005 if ever based
on the information posted in these newsgroups today.
Borland suggests using other tools than Kylix (C++BuilderX, etc.).
BoBo wrote:
Quote
A lot of people raised their concerns regarding Mono, especially
the possible reaction of Microsoft to it down the road in the next
couple of years (IP issues, etc.).

And the total lack of communication in this regard (future/support
of Kylix, Mono, etc.) from Borland in the past years did not help
to calm down the worries either.



Ken Halliwell wrote:

>Michael Schnell < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
>[snip]
>
>>Thus it makes sense for Borland to concentrate all its forces on Octane.
>
>
>[snip]
>
>>Kylix only supports IA32 Linux and with that it is considered to be
>>quite crippled in that world. So moving the Delphi-language Kylix users
>>to a future Octane version makes a lot of sense, while upgrades to Kylix
>>looks like having no more than short term effects.
>
>
>[snip]
>
>This is the most cool-headed, rational analysis I've read in
>the past few days of monitoring the various Borland newsgroups.
>
>I believe there is a market for Linux RAD tools. For Linux
>developers, BCB for Linux was most attractive; but, as many
>stated, it was not well supported. Perhaps CBX will
>provide a better pathway -- at least it's not IA32 bound.
>
>IMHO, the best hope for running Delphi code on Linux is for
>MONO to succeed as a true and complete dotNet layer for Linux.
>Meanwhile, I think Borland should direct its scarce resources
>to other projects -- as painful as this may be for Kylix users.
>
>Of course, Kylix 3 remains available for those who find it
>useful. But IMO, this pathway for Linux RAD tools will be
>eventually closed as the new pathway gains acceptance.
>
>I expect we'll hear more from Borland on this matter within the
>next few weeks. Hopefully, it will satisfy most people.
>It's impossible to satisfy everyone.
>
>kjh


 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

Quote

This is the most cool-headed, rational analysis I've read in
the past few days of monitoring the various Borland newsgroups.

Thanks <g>
Quote
Meanwhile, I think Borland should direct its scarce resources
to other projects -- as painful as this may be for Kylix users.
On BorCon they said that there is no update planned to Kylix in 2004
(but sales and "support" is continued).
-Michael
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

Quote
A lot of people raised their concerns regarding Mono, especially
the possible reaction of Microsoft to it down the road in the next
couple of years (IP issues, etc.).

I suppose Microsoft will see that Mono will have problems running
assemblies created by Microsoft compilers. But Borland should be able to
make their assemblies "mono compatible".
-Michael
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

Michael Schnell < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in
Quote
I suppose Microsoft will see that Mono will have problems running
assemblies created by Microsoft compilers. But Borland should be able
to make their assemblies "mono compatible".
We'll see if Borland really does it. Another problem might be, that
there will be mono and dotGNU (and perhaps others). They implement the
small "open" part, and re-implement and/or work-around the proprietary
MS parts.
IMO .NET is as cross-platform as Win32: There are implementations of
Win32 on other platforms (see winelib), but this does not make it a
real-cross-platform environment.
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

"Michael Schnell" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
I suppose Microsoft will see that Mono will have problems running
assemblies created by Microsoft compilers. But Borland should be able to
make their assemblies "mono compatible".
In order for MS to do as you suggest, they'll have to violate the standard
that they put in place.
 

Re:The (SAD) future of Kylix

"JQP" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:3fb251a1$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM :
Quote
In order for MS to do as you suggest, they'll have to violate the
standard that they put in place.
and that would be different from past behavior?
--
Iman